Talk:Che Guevara/Archive 22

Archive 15

←

Archive 20

Archive 21

Archive 22

Che was a racist homophobic mass murderer

Why are the concentration camps he created for gay and disabled people left out of this article? Why is there no mention of his anti-black or anti-native racist rhetoric and policies? This article looks like it was written by some 19 year old hipster. WTF! (unsigned by IP)

The "concentration camps he created for gay and disabled people" didn't exist. There was some persecution of gay people by the Cuban government in the late 1960's, but Guevara was already outside of the country when this had started, so it can't reasonably be put in the article. It's worth remembering, this was at a time when the British government was still arresting people for homosexual activity.

Guevara's only anti-black statements on record are those he made as very young man when travelling through South America. For an Argentine man born in the 20's, he was about as anti-racist as it's possible to be. See here for an analysis. There is no record of any anti-black policies by Guevara, so no mention of this appears in the article.

As for mass murderer, yes, he killed deserters and traitors in cold blood. That is in the article. After the war he was responsible for executing members of the Batista forces who had committed atrocities. That's in the article. We could ask what the US and UK governments did to deserters and traitors during WWII? The answer is that they executed them. The trials of Batista's soldiers and secret police were explicitly modelled on the Nuremberg trials.

It's ok to disagree with Guevara without automatically believing everything negative that is written about him, this article is solidly based on the most reliable sources on Guevara written by respectable historians. If anything it leans a leans a little anti, as a lot of the academic scholarship in English has something of a right-wing bias, but wikipedia's job is to reflect the available scholarship. Boynamedsue (talk) 05:42, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Misleading

You have him sounding like he was a good revolutionist. He was for Marxism and Socialism. He led Cubans into a communist country. He's not a person to be idolized unless you hate freedom, liberties and the glory of independent thought. 24.198.64.141 (talk) 16:58, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

The article is well sourced. If you have other well sourced material you feel could be usefully added to the article, feel free to do so. HiLo48 (talk) 22:12, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

He/she wants an evaluation which is not the purpose of the exercise here. The rather restrictive version of Marxism/Leninism and Socialism of the historic phase before 1989 created some hatred in people. But today is another phase in history. 2001:8003:A070:7F00:E1F4:9FF:11B0:65F5 (talk) 05:20, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Photo Opportunity

May I suggest the account of the photo op is modified to reflect the fact that many who were present deny that the photo is genuine. This is reflected in the article on Rodriguez. This article might be an appropriate citation - https://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-documentary-alleges-last-photo-of-che-is-fake-1126943

I am not a specialist of this topic but once saw a documentary where a man with an American accent and identifying as a person from an alphabet agency claimed he had shot Guevara. He said he made sure he'd shoot him in the back so he could claim Guevara was trying to escape. That's all I remember. Maybe he could get a bonus for shooting him, who knows. 2001:8003:A070:7F00:E1F4:9FF:11B0:65F5 (talk) 05:25, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Geovara religion

I wanted to know which religion did he followed 39.33.125.55 (talk) 09:30, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

There’s no evidence he was a physician

The fact that it’s highly unlikely that he completed his medical studies is well documented and his academic record is conveniently missing. See, e.g., Ernesto Che Guevara: Mito y Realidad by Enrique Ros. Jaqo (talk) 12:28, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

He certainly worked in the role of a physician, often in places where formal qualifications were far less important than a willingness and ability to do the job. The claim that he is a physician is Wikilinked to our article, which says "Both the role of the physician and the meaning of the word itself vary around the world. Degrees and other qualifications vary widely, but there are some common elements, such as medical ethics requiring that physicians show consideration, compassion, and benevolence for their patients." I suspect many would argue he satisfied that definition quite well. HiLo48 (talk) 23:40, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 May 2022

Suggest that the phrase "non materialistic" in the section "Economic vision and the 'New Man'" be changed to "anti-consumerist", which is the name of the page it links to. The reasoning being that the term "materialism" has two meanings. In common parlance it is used to mean a person who is highly concerned with wealth and material possession, this is the context in which it has been used in in this article. However in philosophy it takes on another meaning. To be a materialist in philosophy means that one believes that matter and the physical world shapes consciousness, not the other way around. This is significant here because Marxism is a heavily materialist philosophy and Che, as a Marxist, would not have wanted his "New Man" to be anti-materialist in this sense. Therefore to avoid confusion and the possibility of anyone interpreting it in this way, I believe the term "anti-consumerist" is more apt in this instance. 82.30.174.164 (talk) 18:53, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: It's part of a quote, so we shouldn't change the wording used. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:02, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Criticism

I am not sure if the 'political right' part of 'his critics on the political right accuse him of promoting authoritarianism and endorsing violence against his political opponents." is from a citation or not, but it should be emphasized that, while he did have critics on the right, it is not the only camp which criticized him, right now it makes it sound like the right were the actually the only ones. Rousillon (talk) 03:43, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Broken links in Archival media

Clicking on several link outs in the archival media section on mobile plays a Minecraft Christmas song music video. Possible breaking API change in YouTube url has given way to an odd glitch when being redirected to the YouTube app. Unbiasedagainst (talk) 15:11, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Che visited the Gaza strip.

This article itself shows him in the Gaza strip yet this map does not have gaza highlighted. HistoryResearcher101 (talk) 07:22, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Cause of Death

Execution by shooting" link not working 216.36.24.25 (talk) 14:15, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

List of professions

I can see that "terrorist" was not added to the list of titles/professions/avocations: "Argentine Marxist revolutionary, physician, writer, guerrilla leader, diplomat, and military theorist." At least with a qualifier like "alleged terrorist and murderer" would be objectively accurate. One could argue it is subsumed within "Marxist revolutionary" and "guerrilla leader" but not really. The bias in these wiki articles is amazing. 70.189.237.208 (talk) 18:37, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia depends on reliable sources for its content. Can you provide such a source to support your view? HiLo48 (talk) 00:24, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

el Che

CTR+F and search for "el che"; my point is that his monicker, war name, nickname, or whatever, in spanish is El Che; The Che, not just Che. Thoughts? -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.52.7.239 (talk) at 14:30, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

But he signed himself as just Che - see the Cuban bank notes. -- Beardo (talk) 01:38, 4 December 2022 (UTC) Che was the founder and installer of broagh village as well as the Cuban sandwhich factory

Name

Once aganin. I'll try to be polite. The name? According to his national ID? 194.190.160.211 (talk) 20:24, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Once again? As an unregistered editor, all we can see about you is your current IP address, and nobody from that address has ever commented here before, so we cannot know what you have said in the past. Your comment/question is written as if we should all know precisely what you mean. But it's not in proper sentences, so it's pretty difficult to know what you're asking. Please expand your request. HiLo48 (talk) 00:13, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

And which nation ? -- Beardo (talk) 01:40, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Unnecessary apostrophe

"This moment has also been marked for it's significance in the Cuban government's slow and ultimately final ousting of Virgilio Piñera from official literary discourse in Cuba. Piñera had originally been regarded as an important dramatist of the Cuban Revolution but had later become slowly condemned and finally arrested." Robynteague (talk) 16:33, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks for raising it. HiLo48 (talk) 21:11, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

False quotation

There is a particular quote by Guevara that supposedly originates from his interview with Sam Russell and that is also mentioned in this Wikipedia article: <<Guevara reiterated that the cause of socialist liberation against global "imperialist aggression" would ultimately have been worth the possibility of "millions of atomic war victims">>. The source for this quote is a collection of writings by Guevara by D. Deutschmann, which is already rather strange since most people claim the quote is from his interview with Russell. Transcripts of that interview show nothing of the sort, however, making it more probable that this is quote could be fabrication. I have not yet been able to get my hands on Deutschmann's collection, but I very much doubt that this sentence would be found in it. 2A02:1811:C1F:8200:3564:4278:E78B:F860 (talk) 12:50, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Mixup

The passport photo shown at the beginning of the "Bolivian insurgency" section bears the signature of the name (Ramón Benítez) given in the Congo section as his alias used to enter Congo in 1965, so the passport is probably from 1965 rather than 1966, and might-oughta' be moved to that section.

Similarly, although perhaps he did it both times, the description of the changes made to his appearance correspond to those photos and perhaps should move with it. ManlyMatt (talk) 05:56, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 November 2023

Source 100 doesn't make any sense. Quote is from the point of view of someone rescued by Che Guevara during combat, from Joel Iglesias' diary, his "teenage lieutenant". The quote starts by mentioning that Joel is getting shot at, gets rescued by Che. Che does not get shot because the guards overhear him being referred to as "Che". the part that doesn't make sense is the following: ". Later . . . they told me he made a great impression on them when they saw him run out with his pistol stuck in his belt, ignoring the danger, they didn't dare shoot.", how and why would he be communicating, so colloquially at that, to the enemy who was just shooting at him? the formatting of the quote makes me very dubious as well, considering it leads the statement with "later...", which tells us that they took out a part of the quote. Therefore, I am uncertain of the validity of this statement, it is also the only online source of the quote i could find. I would suggest to remove the quote. hope this finds you well XavierNeedsMore (talk) 20:03, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done That's what the source says. You don't have to believe it. Maproom (talk) 23:41, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 November 2023

Physician should be removed as he was never a doctor, never practiced medicine, never graduated medical school and his diploma has never been shown 2600:1700:6822:7CA0:3931:7913:B26C:6BA0 (talk) 16:33, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. I don't have access to the specific sources that we've cited but per our article it looks like he did complete his degree and practiced briefly in Mexico. Looking through the talk page archives this has been discussed sporadically in the past, and it looks like the consensus have generally been that he was a physician. However, per MOS:FIRSTBIO the first sentence should only contain occupations/activities a BLP subject is notable for and completing a medical degree and briefly practicing medicine IMO is certainly not what Guevara is mainly known for and IMO it should not be in the lead sentence. Cannolis (talk) 17:54, 17 November 2023 (UTC)