Talk:Che Guevara/Archive 10

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Opinions requested

Hello everybody -- I have some concerns about the following sentence in the lead paragraph of the CG article and would like to know if they are shared by others. Here is the sentence under discussion:

Through these experiences he became convinced that only revolution could remedy the region's economic inequality, leading him to study Marxism and become involved in Guatemala's social revolution under President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán.

In order of importance, my concerns are: (i) I am not sure that what Arbenz did/was doing in Guatemala qualifies as a "social revolution"; (ii) I question whether it is accurate to state that CG was "involved in Guatemala's social revolution" (or whatever else it might be called) since, to the best of my knowledge, he was more of an onlooker than a participant; (iii) I don't think that the phrase "the region's economic inequality" is the optimal choice as it does not make it clear whether the inequality in question was among people within the region (i.e., a markedly skewed distribution of income) or an inequality in GDP between "the region" and some other unspecified region.

I would appreciate hearing from other editors whether they consider my concerns to be serious ones that should be addressed or whether they consider that the sentence is fine "as is". Thank you -- Polaris999 05:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Arbenz's plan seems to have been more agrarian reform than social revolution and agreed CG seems to have been more the onlooker than a participant based on a google search and the Arbenz article does not mention CG.--Dakota 06:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the sentence is incorrect - in both Guevara's involvement (or lack of) in Guatemala's internal politics - and in the description of the "social revolution". As Dakota notes, Arbenz was primarily instituting land reforms. It may be considered a social revolution - and I'm sure it was the objective of some in the Arbenz administration, as well as the belief of some in Washington - but to call it such here gives perhaps a false impression of a Cuba style radical transformation. Though I haven't come up with any wording to improve that sentence, so I'm all ears.--Zleitzen 02:43, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Changes proposed to improve readability, Part I

Fellow editors: Please take a look at this comparison page to see the changes that User: Brian H made to the CG article and that I have rolled back pending discussion of them here on the Discussion page and express your opinions as to whether they should be included or not. Many thanks -- Polaris999 02:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Brian is on the right track in trying to improve readability, however I feel the previous wording - though more elaborate - was more accurate and grammatically correct.--Zleitzen 02:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Zleitzen, I concur 100% with your evaluation. Furthermore, in several places the re-wording has given rise to inaccuracies: for example, CG did not travel rough in order "to bring himself into direct contact with the impoverished conditions", but rather because his financial straits made that the only method of travel available to him. -- Polaris999 04:08, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid I have to agree with you two, but I will say that the "powerlessness of the masses" paragraphs is among my least favorite in the article. If you both indicate some dissatisfaction with that particular paragraph, perhaps I can take a stab at it. Dasondas 05:43, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Dasondas -- Here is one vote for your doing a re-write of that paragraph! -- Polaris999 16:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I did not mean to kick any hornets nests, I was just researching something else and did some "drive by editting" of some stuff that looked like the original author was using Marx (Karl, not Groucho) as a style guide. That being said, my reasoning for the edit of the description of his motorcycle trip was to bring it in line with the justification listed later in the entry, which reads: "Guevara and the 29-year-old Granado soon set off from their hometown of Alta Gracia astride a 1939 Norton 500 cc motorcycle they named La Poderosa II (English: "the Mighty One, the Second") with the idea of spending a few weeks volunteering at the San Pablo Leper colony in Peru on the banks of the Amazon River." The motorcycle may have been the most economical means to take an extended journey available, but CG had a stated altruistic motive (although it pains me to say so, I am no Che-phile). CG was not poor, he just had the limited means of a man who had not yet come into his own. My research on the matter was simply to read the whole article and look for inconsistancies. The reason that the passage caught my eye was the odd phrase "riding rough" --Brian H 15:07, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Also my edit on that passage was mainly to change "riding rough" to "and took an extended motorcycle trip" and to change "did bring" to "to bring" (justification of element of intent above)--Brian H 18:08, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

To facilitate further discussion of this topic, I am inserting here a side-by-side comparison of the lead paragraph, before and after. User: Brian H, please notice that the phrase used in the sentence you refer to above that contains the word "rough" is, and always has been, "traveling rough", not "riding rough". I believe that "riding rough" is what Theodore Roosevelt and his cohorts did. (¿El grouchomarxista eres tú?) -- Polaris999 18:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)  (with apologies to Pablo Milanés)

Lead section before changes made by User:Brian H Ernesto Guevara de la Serna (June 14, 1928 – October 9, 1967), commonly known as Che Guevara or el Che, was an Argentine-born Marxist revolutionary, political figure, and leader of Cuban and internationalist guerrillas. As a young man studying medicine, Guevara traveled rough throughout Latin America, bringing him into direct contact with the impoverished conditions in which many people lived. Through these experiences he became convinced that only revolution could remedy the region's economic inequality, leading him to study Marxism and become involved in Guatemala's social revolution under President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán.

Lead section written by User:Brian H Ernesto Guevara de la Serna (June 14, 1928 – October 9, 1967), commonly known as Che Guevara or el Che, was an Argentine-born Marxist revolutionary, political figure, and leader of Cuban and internationalist guerrillas. As a young man he studied medicine and took an extended motorcycle trip throughout Latin America to bring himself into direct contact with the impoverished conditions in which many people lived. He later cited these experiences as what convinced him that only revolution could remedy the region's economic inequality, leading him to study Marxism and become involved in Guatemala's social revolution under President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán.

I think that this is a good opportunity for all of us to try to improve the lead paragraph. I am especially bothered by the third sentence and wonder whether the following would be an improvement:

His experiences and observations during these trips convinced him that only revolution could remedy the region's socioeconomic inequalities, leading him to study Marxism and travel to Guatemala during the presidency of Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán to study the reforms being implemented there.

or perhaps:

His experiences and observations during these trips convinced him that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied through revolution, leading him to study Marxism and travel to Guatemala during the presidency of Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán to study the reforms being implemented there.

-- Polaris999 18:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

One of the problems with Brian's version is that Guevara made a number of trips - the motorcycle trip being just one. As stated by Polaris, the reasons for the motorcycle trip were not to bring himself into direct contact with the impoverished conditions - but simply to travel and experience the continent. Also, the phrase "He later cited these experiences as what convinced him that..." is grammatically incorrect. All in all I support the first shorter, more accurate version. Polaris is wise to note that a mention of "Rough Riders" on an article concerning Cuba could be misleading!--Zleitzen 18:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Another one for the mix: His experiences and observations during these trips led him to the conclusion that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied by revolution, and as a result he took up the study of Marxism and travelled to Guatemala during the presidency of Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán to study the reforms being implemented there. In particular, I chose led him to the conclusion instead of convinced him because the latter could be interpreted has CG coming to recognize an objective truth, whereas the former makes clear that the conlcusion reached was subjective to him. Dasondas 20:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello, Dasondas -- I agree with you about "led" vs. "convinced" and your version is now my first choice. But, how would you feel about substituting "delved into the study of Marxism" for "took up the study of Marxism"? It is, I believe, perhaps a tad more accurate since he already had been reading various Marxist texts in a somewhat superficial fashion (according to his own testimony) before he went on the trips. -- Polaris999 21:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

His experiences and observations during these trips led him to the conclusion that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied by revolution, and as a result he delved into the study of Marxism and travelled to Guatemala during the presidency of Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán to study the reforms being implemented there.

-- Polaris999 21:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Well they are each an improvement. I would tend to agree with Dasondas that his first sentence is even more neutral. Here's my attempt for what it's worth! "His experiences and observations during these trips led him to the conclusion that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied by revolution, prompting him to study Marxism and travel to Guatemala to study the reforms being implemented by President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán."--Zleitzen 20:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello, Zleitzen. I like yours too! But, might I suggest:

His experiences and observations during these trips led him to the conclusion that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied by revolution, prompting him to intensify his study of Marxist literature and travel to Guatemala to witness the reforms being implemented by President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán.

I am not certain "witness" is the best word here, but I would like to avoid the repetition of "study". Perhaps one of you will come up with a better verb (I would have used "observe" if it too had not already made an appearance in this sentence ...) -- Polaris999 21:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Drawing on what I liked about the two previous versions: "His experiences and observations during these trips led him to the conclusion that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied by revolution, prompting him to intensify his study of Marxism and travel to Guatemala to study the reforms being implemented by President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán." Dasondas 21:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Dasondas, I think that our versions are converging. Would you please check out my latest effort, just above, which is out of sequence because I posted it after you posted your version -- but before I had read yours -- and tell me your thoughts? -- Polaris999 21:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

How's this? "His experiences and observations during these trips led him to the conclusion that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied by revolution, prompting him to intensify his study of Marxism and travel to Guatemala to observe the reforms being implemented by President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán." I left "Marxism" instead of "Marxist literature" for now, but would like to hear why Polaris substituted the latter. Dasondas 21:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Dasondas. Well, as I got to thinking about it, Marxism is not exactly the same as Marxist literature and what he was studying during the pre-Guatemala era was actually the latter. However, it is probably not important to make this differentiation.

re "observe", I am still uneasy with it because of "observations" appearing earlier in the sentence. There must be a perfect verb to express what we are trying to, but it is certainly proving elusive! -- Polaris999 22:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The best I've got right now are "Understand", "Gain a perspective of", "Examine", "Take stock of", "View", "See", and "Comprehend". Alternatively we can maintain "observe and substitute "observations" for something like "Impressions", "Perceptions", or even remove the word and just keep "experiences". Hopefully you can work with this Chinese menu and put something together. On the "Marxist" vs. "Marxist literature", by all means use the latter if you think it is more accurate. Dasondas 22:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

What do you think about this version?

His experiences and observations during these trips led him to the conclusion that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied by revolution, prompting him to intensify his study of Marxism and travel to Guatemala to learn about the reforms being implemented there by President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán.

-- Polaris999 23:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you should put it in the article immediately, and if anybody ever tries to change so much as a comma we'll gang up on them all the way to ArbCom (and even to Jimbo himself if that's what it takes) and make sure they're banned until the next millennium. Dasondas 23:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

With that kind of endorsement, I think we must have a winner! I left a message for Zleitzen asking him to please come to have a look -- Polaris999 00:19, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

That's fine by me! --Zleitzen 00:30, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Changes proposed to improve readability, Part II

Can the phrase "traveling rough" be taded out for something descriptive like "motorcycle journey." "Traveling rough" may be in common use somewhere, but not everywhere--Brian H 02:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

(removing indent) I tend to agree with BrianH and think that something along the lines of "travelled through Latin America by motorcycle" would be both more factual and less stylistically distracting. Any other thoughts? Dasondas 02:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that the motorcycle journey was only one of a number of excursions. And even that venture was achieved largely without the help of the machine, which broke down early on. Out of interest, is the term "travelling rough" not a universal expression?--Zleitzen 02:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Dasondas -- Sorry to dissent, but I must. CG and AG travelled not only by motorcycle but also by bus, on foot, by hitchiking in trucks and cars, as stowaways on at least one ship, by raft (the Mambo-Tango), by train when they could get onto one, and eventually, in Che's case, by airplane. At one point I had considered listing all of these conveyances but then decided that to do so would be too verbose. Do you feel otherwise? -- Polaris999 02:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC) (posting of this reply was delayed by Editing Conflict but basically I am saying the same thing as Zletizen. BTW to make future discussion easier, I have made this into a new section.)

Well, OK, so much for my suggestion being more factual :) Wrt Zleitzen's query, I had never heard the expression "travelling rough" before reading this article; on the other hand the connotation was immediately clear to me. I do understand where BrianH is coming from, but now given your added detail I'm without any ideas for improvement. Dasondas 02:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

But I hope that you are still going to turn your keyboard to the "powerlessness" paragraph! -- Polaris999 02:53, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed I plan to. After the free history lesson I just got, I suppose I owe you that much. Although right now I'm wondering if this whole thread needs to be moved from Wikipedia to Wikthesaurus. Dasondas 02:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Dasondas, sometimes I think it would be rather appealing to reduce the whole article to the "concise" version suggested (humoristically) by Jmabel   :-) -- Polaris999 03:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Alas, Polaris, you will note that while having the utmost regard for JMabel's work across many articles and in many contexts, and respecting him as an editor with quite a bit more experience than me, at the time of his proposed abridged edition I was forced to raise a rather serious policy objection. Perhaps, though, he will join us in discussion so that we may work together to finally get the definitive version of the TRUTH out. Dasondas 03:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

2 options to "travel smoothly": 1)"As a young man studying medicine, Guevara traveled rough throughout Latin America, most famously by motorcycle, but often by other means, bringing him into direct contact with the impoverished conditions in which many people lived." or option 2)"As a young man studying medicine, Guevara traveled rough throughout Latin America, not only by motorcycle but also by bus, on foot, by hitchiking in trucks and cars, as stowaways on at least one ship, by raft (the Mambo-Tango), by train when they could get onto one, and eventually, in Che's case, by airplane. This brought him into direct contact with the impoverished conditions in which many people lived." The information provided by Polaris makes the passage more interesting and clear.--Brian H 14:30, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Although it wasn't me who added the "traveled rough" to the article and it seems to have been there for a long time - even before this article reached featured status and surviving main page coverage - I feel it would be a shame to lose it. It encapsulates in one word the 39 words it has taken to describe the means and methods of Guevara's adventures above. It's a very old term and is the reason for the title of the Rough Guide travel books. It means to travel via improvised methods on a very low budget, in the manner of a Jack London or Jack Kerouac. So it is an ideal descriptive term for us here. I'm surprised and intrigued by the non-universiality of the expression! Is the expression "sleeping rough" also not known to some?--Zleitzen 17:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Since compiling the above list, I have realized that there are two more conveyances that need to be included: his motorized bike (the one in that appears in the ad) and the petrol tanker on which he travelled up and down the eastern coast of South America as a male nurse! Interestingly, although CG was very fond of riding, I know of no evidence that he ever made a trip on horseback ...

As for "travelling rough", I settled on that phrase after considering various alternatives along the lines being discussed above. It is in common usage among English-speaking travellers in Europe. "Rough" as a descriptor for living and sleeping appears in the dictionaries I have checked, so I hope that people who may not have heard the phrase "travelling rough" before can nevertheless figure out its meaning — as Dasondas explains he did (above). On the other hand, perhaps it would be interesting to include a list of the numerous conveyances used in a content note. We might attach it to the word "rough", and in addition to the means of transportation we could mention how he/they slept outdoors, in jails, barns, etc. so that readers can get an even more precise understanding of what is meant by "rough". Does this idea appeal to anybody? -- Polaris999 21:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like a very good idea, Polaris.--Zleitzen 04:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Zleitzen. I'll try to come up with a draft content note tomorrow and post it here so everyone can tweak it. -- Polaris999 04:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Follow-up: I have just added the promised content note to the article. I'm sorry for the delay but I was re-reading both Che's and Alberto's journals in order to make it as comprehensive as possible. Please have a look at it (label is "rough") and edit it in situ as necessary. Many thanks -- Polaris999 06:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Zleitzen, in response to your query, I have never before heard the phrase "sleeping rough". I can't discern the meaning as readily as I could for "travelling rough", yet for some reason I find myself rather curious as to whether there is some type of guide (illustrated, perhaps) published on the enjoyments of that activity :) Dasondas 20:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad to find this discussion. I had to check here to figure out what "traveled rough" was implying. My first thought was it was a spelling error or vandalism. I have never heard this term used in the US, so thank for the explanation.--Stangbat 15:42, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Powerless masses

Rising up and throwing off the shackles of the consensual dialectic, inspired by WP:BOLD and influenced by more than one scotch, I have published my edits to this most oppobrious of paragraphs. You may revert or edit at will (go ahead, you coward, you will only be killing a paragraph). Those with imperialist administrative powers may even ban me for vandalism (don't think you wouldn't be doing me a favor). Dasondas 06:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I like the rework very much Dasondas. Good work. --Zleitzen 07:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Zleitzen. Dasondas 13:51, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

My congratulations also, Dasondas. Many thanks for cleaning out that miasma. There are just a couple of little tweaks to the first and second sentences that I would like to present for your consideration:

Guevara analyzed the widespread poverty, oppression and disenfranchisement that he had witnessed throughout Latin America in the context of his Marxist readings and arrived at the conclusion that the only solution for the region’s inequalities was armed revolution. His travels and readings also led him to view Latin America not as a group of separate nations but as a single entity requiring a continent-wide strategy for liberation. His conception of a borderless, united Ibero-America sharing a common 'mestizo' culture was a theme that would prominently recur during his later revolutionary activities. Upon returning to Argentina, he expedited the completion of his medical studies in order to resume his travels in Central and South America and received his diploma on 12 June 1953.

I look forward to your comments ... -- Polaris999 20:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The second of your suggested changes (His travels and readings also led him) is OK and should probably be retained in the article. The first suggestion, though, is ambiguous in that it's not clear whether the phrase "in the context of his Marxist readings" is modifying the verb "analyzed" (as you intended) or the verb "witnessed" (which makes less contextual sense, but is the grammatically logical association). The sentence could be modified to begin, Guevara analyzed, in the context of his Marxist readings, the widespread poverty, oppression and disenfranchisement that he had witnessed.... Another possibility that I had considered, that was closest to the pre-existing sentence structure and is similar in meaning to your suggested change is, Witnessing the widespread poverty, oppression and disenfranchisement throughout Latin America, and influenced by his readings of Marxist literature, Guevara decided that the only solution for the region’s inequalities was armed revolution. The change I made to the grammatical structure, while subtle, was calculated to place more responsibility on Guevara the man for the decisions he made -- his Marxist readings being an influencing, but secondary factor. I still prefer my version but would welcome further discussion. Dasondas 19:59, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello Dasondas. I like your second version much better. The discomfort I have with the sentence as it now appears in the article is that the subject, "Guevara", is sandwiched in between the two descriptive phrases and seems (to me) to be somewhat overwhelmed by them.

Would you perchance have a minute to take a look at the recent change made by User: Dwaipayanc removing the adjective "beloved" from the sentence re CG's Grandmother Ana Isabel Lynch? User: Dwaipayanc commented that he had removed the word because it is "unnecessary". While I do not doubt that it may seem unnecessary to some, I think that the same accusation could be levelled against almost any other individual word in this article or, for that matter, in any other article. It is widely recognized that Ana Isabel Lynch was one of the most important figures in CG's life -- for example, it was her death from cancer that caused him to switch his intended major from Engineering to Medicine -- and I feel that she should be singled out in some way. If you do not like the word "beloved", could you perhaps suggest an alternative? -- Polaris999 21:15, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Polaris, I made the edit to the former "powerless masses" paragraph to reflect our discussion above. See how it looks. As to "beloved", I think it's entirely appropriate and not unnecessary at all to highlight CG's fondness for his grandmother in order to distinguish her central influence on him, in contrast to other family members. IMO "beloved" is perfectly fitting, and I can't think of anything better right now. I'll leave it to you to make the reversion and engage Dwaipayanc in discussion on this point if you want. Dasondas 21:43, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that the former "powerless masses" paragraph reads very well now and should be easily understood by all. In line with your comment re "beloved", I have restored that word and will defend it to the best of my ability, if necessary. -- Polaris999 04:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

No way, Guevara's perception of social conditions in Latin America were inevitable influenced by his marxist upbringing. His very reliance on such theoretical concepts so flawed his view of reality that they led to his, in my view very deserved, doom in Bolivia. El Jigue 11-5-06

EJ, I'm not quite following you. We make the point that his Marxist studies influenced his outlook, decision-making process, and subsequent behavior. Do you think that we haven't made this point strongly enough? Dasondas 18:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, Dasondas just moved that phrase forward in the sentence in question, giving it even more emphasis! -- Polaris999 19:34, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Changes proposed by Lavenderbunny

If interested, please take a look at this comparison page to view the changes made on 06 November 06 by User:Lavenderbunny and which I rolled back pending discussion here. -- Polaris999 17:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I can't see any changes that improve the article or readibility, I'm afraid. Again the "rough" has been questioned and removed - it probably needs the speech marks around the word again. I think it was Brian that removed "Christopher Hitchens, when attempting to summarise Guevara's legacy, speculated thus..." replacing it with a mere "Christopher Hitchens commented.." - the reason given was that the former was too "catty". I don't quite understand which aspect of the sentence the "catty" refers to, but I think it needs to be explained that Chris wasn't just pontificating in a vacuum - some sort of context is required.--Zleitzen 19:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello Zleitzen -- I too was puzzled by by Brian_H's remark but thought that perhaps I was missing something and so left the change in place for you to decide about ... -- Polaris999 20:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I reduced the sentance because all the extra words were unneccessary. Hitchens in an author (his book on Orwell is on my nightstand at the moment, by chance) A link to the Hitchens article was already there. And to use your own word, the passage implies (more or less) that he is "pontificating" (because he is "attempting to summerize" as opposed to ligimately doing so). As many have pointed out, the article is a bit long, so it was not a stretch to trim that particular passage.--Brian H 02:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Concerning "rough": I can hardly believe the amount of confusion that this straightforward word is generating. It does appear in dictionaries — for example, the following is from The Free Dictionary:

"Idiom:

rough it

To live without the usual comforts and conveniences: roughed it in a small hunting shack."

(sigh) ... Since it is an accepted idiom in the English language, I see no reason so remove it. As for the speech marks, I had originally included them, then someone removed them and I didn't restore them. Please replace them if you think they are needed. (BTW I am working on the content of the promised content note by going back over the details of all of his trips to make sure that I have not missed any of the multiple conveyances and sleeping spots used. I should be ready to compose it in a day or so. Perhaps I should include the definition at the beginning of it?) -- Polaris999 20:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

You guys have long since convinced me on the "travelling rough" phrase, but since Zleitzen has shown an interest in its idiomatic usage, I thought he'd be interested to know that the example rough it provided by Polaris above is a term I've been using since childhood. I would naturally say "We roughed it", but I would never say "We travelled rough". Just fyi. But, please, keep fighting to maintain "travelled rough" in the article -- there is no "dominant" English idiom for Wikipedia, and I have been convinced that the existing term is perhaps the most elegant description we have in the language for describing Guevara's activities during that period of his life. Dasondas 21:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Rough revisited: I searched for travel rough in amazon.com and their search engine returned 1963 hits! Among them a book entitled The Art of Rough Travel: From the Peculiar to Practical, Advice From a 19th Century Explorer (Hardcover), by Francis Galton. -- Polaris999 22:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Yet, the same entry in Google yields only 884 hits. How peculiar! For comparison Google returns 12,200 hits on the more-or-less randomly selected phrase "What I had for breakfast", and for a more topical comparison the phrase "roughing it" (for which Amazon lists over 9100 books) has 737,000 pages referenced by Google. Hmm, Polaris, another phrase is now coming to mind..."Seizing defeat from the jaws of victory." Dasondas 22:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

1953 on amazon and 884 on google are quite enough for me  ;-)   -- Polaris999 23:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Just for the record: "traveling rough" has grown on me and I renounce all previous objections to it. I only offer profound under caffeination as an explaination for my actions. --Brian H 02:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

"traveled rough" "roughing it" is common in the english language and is very effective in describing the amenities or lack of available to Guevara in his travels. I googled it also and found a great number of references. --Dakota 23:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Citation for political dissidents

I need to take a further look at that sentence and citation in reference to "political dissidents". Having written about the post revolution "against the wall" period elsewhere - I need more convincing. The fact that the citation is from the "Black book of communism" raises questions, considering that the immediate post revolution period we are concerned with was not marked by "communist" governance or methods, it seems strange that it should be presented in that book and contradictory to historical accounts of the period. I don't know the book in question I'm afraid. By the way - I'm thinking of the 500 or so executions in the first 6 months or so of 1959. I'll revisit various historical texts to ascertain which executions we are referring to. "Political dissidents" is not something I would necessarily associate with the victims from my previous studies. It may have also been the reason why Polaris added the "citation needed" tag.--Zleitzen 23:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm open to being convinced. The "Black Book of Communism" is the only thing on my shelf that was on point, so I used it. The book has garnered some controversy since its release, but I believe that most moderate observers would come to the conclusion that it is a serious effort whose primary authors are respected researchers/writers although it is certainly far from being a scholarly treatment and makes no pretense of objectivity. The original is in French, and the version I translated from is in Portuguese; not having seen the original I can't vouch for the French-Portuguese translation, but I am confident in my own abilities to accurately render Portuguese into English. If you want, I can provide the quote in the original language, but I believe that your scepticism is quite a bit more substantive and I'll wait for the results of search. At the end of the day I'd have no problem removing the claim from the article if it proves to be unsustainable, but it might come down to what we mean by political dissidents. Our friend EJ might want to weigh in as well, but seeing as that you, Zletizen, have directly relevant professional expertise you wouldn't find me to be a tough obstacle to move on this point if no other dissenters voiced an opinion in the meantime. Dasondas 00:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

(Potentially mildly humorous update) Also, since Polaris has created the precedent of using Amazon searches as a citable reference here (see above discussion on "rough"), I'll note that the Black Book of Communism received 4 out of 5 stars from 92 customer reviews at Amazon -- I'm betting that's a broader consensus than we'll get for any academic source :) Dasondas 00:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Zleitzen's statement "I need more convincing." sums up my own feeling exactly. Nothing I have read about the period leads me to believe that those executed were other than supporters of the Batista dictatorship, which does not leave room for dissidents from within the revolutionary forces themselves. Since the first five months after the M-26-7 victory were rather chaotic, I hadn't thought that the situation had reached a degree of clarity such that the concept "dissident" would have had any currency. In the case of Huber Matos, I have read that it was Guevara who later that same year saved him from the death penalty. BTW have you had a look at 216 Documented Victims of Che Guevara ... ? I believe that this page was originally brought to my attention by our friend EJ. It includes a list of all those individuals executed at La Cabaña during Guevara's tenure for whom the author has been able to find documentary evidence, and the total is only 164; unfortunately, he does not include a description of the charges against each. Anyway, I am definitely no expert on this subject matter and would just like to suggest that we all do our best to bring whatever light we can to bear on this murky period. -- Polaris999 02:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I never considered that the source I brought would be sufficient to hold the claim, but I made the edit because I think it is good enough for removing the fact tag and forcing us to come to a consensus about whether the claim stays or goes. I'm completely open on this point and wouldn't suggest that the one source I provided would be enough to pass the high bar of verifiability implied for a featured article on a controversial topic. Btw, I would have been surprised if neither you nor Zleitzen had challenged that source ;) Dasondas 06:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's a few accounts to add to the pot.

• Richard Gott, in Cuba : A new history states "several hundred former Batista associates, policemen and torturers were shot by firing squad after perfunctory trials". p168
• Hugh Thomas, in Cuba the pursuit of freedom, states that 200 people were shot after the tribunals, all for murder or torture. Thomas goes on to say, "many of those shot richly deserved it, by most criteria" p726
• Angelo Trento, in Castro and Cuba says that there were approx. 400 capital sentences for "people who had collaborated with Batista's repressive regime"
• Jon Lee Anderson states the executions were of "deputies, rank and file chivatos and police torturers" p388

It would be good to have a strong selection of sources to cover this most controversial section of the page.--Zleitzen 14:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello Zleitzen -- Thank you very much for this research. On the basis of your findings showing four credible sources that do not mention "political dissidents" as against one questionable source, The Black Book of Communism, that does, I have removed that allegation from the article and pasted it (shown in bold text) here:

He was appointed commander of the La Cabaña Fortress prison, and during his six-month tenure in that post (January 2 through June 12, 1959), he oversaw the trial and execution of many people, among whom were former Batista regime officials, members of the "Bureau for the Repression of Communist Activities" (a unit of the secret police know by its Spanish acronym BRAC), and political dissidents.

-- Polaris999 16:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

---

El Jigue

Indeed EJ appears to be facing a period of dissidence on wikipedia as we write. Another user has taken issue with his refusal to register alongside his robust talk page activity on various pages, I am at present attempting to broker a resolution to ensure his continued participation! --Zleitzen 00:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I've brought this up, on the 'talk pages' of Cuba, Fidel Castro and Raul Castro. Though El Jigue, may be a popular (or at least engaging) anon-user, his continuous gossiping on article-related events, are clogging up space. This gossiping should stop, an irresponsible popular anon-user (El Jigue); is still an irresponsible anon user. This gossiping is against Wikipedia policy; hey, I didn't set the policies. GoodDay 01:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I have posted my comments at User_talk:Durova#El_Jigue -- Polaris999 06:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Related discussion, blocks, etc. can be seen at: User talk:208.65.188.149 User_talk:Durova/Archive_10#El_Jigue User_talk:Durova/Archive_10#Regarding_El_Jigue User_talk:GoodDay#El_Jigue User_talk:Dasondas#El_Jigue User_talk:Zleitzen#El_Jigue User_talk:Zleitzen#El_Jigüe User_talk:Polaris999#El_Jigue (and perhaps elsewhere). -- Polaris999 16:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC) (updated -- Polaris999 06:27, 12 November 2006 (UTC))

---

In all probability these numbers are low even for the first six months. Personally I remember the horror of fellow rebels (most front-line rebels disliked executions) when report came in of 100 killed by Raul in a single day in Santiago. However, perhaps the major point is that these executions did not stop after the early months and accelerated as time went on and the resistance known as the "War Against the Bandits" came, grew strong, and was repressed (circa 1967). Total executions in Cuba are usually given as in excess of 10,000, a round and thus imprecise number.

Beruvides, Esteban M 1992 Cuba y sus Mártires. Cuban Historical Association, Miami Library of Congreso number 92072567 lists by name and when possible date of death well over 4,000. "Accidental" shooting deaths were so common in those early days that there were editorials in newspapers still not under governmen control (e.g. Prensa Libre) protesting their occurrence. An very readable account of some of the horror of those days is given in: Plimpton, George 1977 Shadow box. G.P. Putnam’s Sons. New York. SBN 399119957 especially pp. 143-149. The relationship of Mark Herman to the Che Guevara is not clear to me but I am under the impression that he was under the direct orders of Guevara. El Jigue 11-8-06

Indeed. Raúl's massacre of soldiers in a ditch (70-100 people) - and similar executions that occured sporadically in the immediate aftermath are verifiable by all available sources that I have seen. The best summary I have seen for the total number of executions since 1959 reads "The dividing line between those who have an axe to grind and those who don't falls in the 5,000-12,000 range". Though we would need to consider what material is in direct relation to Guevara for this article.--Zleitzen 01:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

"Che" derived from the Mapuche?

A correspondent tells me that: "Che, is a colloquial address in Argentina and Paraguay, with roots in the Mapuche indigenous word Che, meaning people. Calling someone Che implies the belonging to one's own people (as paisano is used in Cuban vernacular)." It is a common given among the less educated in Argentina that they are "Europeans" however even the most cursory examination of features of rural and some urban populations demonstrates that they carry indigenous traits. This custom may date from the times of the genocidal tyrant Rosas, when to admit that one was indigenous was not the safest thing in the world. El Jigue 11-8-06

Anon edits

An anon editor restored much material that was subsequently rejected or improved, the material uses repetition from earlier sections, was poorly written, carried unreliable sources, gave undue weight to weak or obscure theories, was rejected by consensus, was in effect a POV fork and ultimately diminished the credibility of a featured article. One of the most contentious aspects of editing is when one removes so called "criticisms". My reply to that is always the same - write the criticisms in a serious manner that one would expect to read in an encyclopedia, write them from varied, academic or serious sources, and don't create huge chunks of material that even to the most neutral observer would read like an amateur hack job. It would seem that we had overcome that problem with this article, it would be a shame of the credibility was reduced again.--Zleitzen 17:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

It should be noted that anon is accusing me (although it was in collaboration with a number of editors) of deleting the criticism section (the accusation is at the top of the page for some reason). He/she has failed to notice that the criticism section was in fact merged with the legacy section - and new criticisms were introduced (by me) from more reliable sources. Therefore his/her edits were merely repeating points that were already in the article. It always helps to read an article before one attempts vast edits. In light of this error, I believe the editor is misplaced in adding the POV tag and it should be removed.--Zleitzen 17:58, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The criticism section disapeared completly on October 27th by your edit, it appears. The criticism section was torn down over the course of several months via baseless accusations which amount for "love of che" and hatred of anything that does not agree with you. The POV tag should stay because this article, while at many points provides factual accounts, also has moments of Che loving that is not encyclopedic in and of itself. But because this is a controversial topic, with viewers, readers, and scholars on opposite sides, it is most appropriate to have both pro and cons to Che's history. NOT ONE SIDED VIEWS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.15.112.129 (talk • contribs)

You appear not have read the section you are speaking of, which detailed the "pros and cons" in approximately the same number of words as the two sections before being merged. You also seem to be disputing the article because it now has "factual accounts". Out of interest, which section of the article now reads "love of che"? --Zleitzen 19:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

It should be clear in re-reading that we now have 2 sections that essentially say the same thing, the labor camps, the economic failures, the stint at La Cabana, the Paul Berman quote. What remains is a couple of dramatic quotes from non-notables such as "sociopathic thug" which read more like a school essay than any encyclopedia article. That the above anon user hasn't noticed that he/she has duplicated a section, despite making several edits and posting a long uncivil screed at the top of this page beggars belief. It should be open to other users whether this is an improvement.--Zleitzen 19:58, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Well a criticism of Che section is woefully missing. Perhaps one should be built. Try being constructive rather than destructive (ie, deleting), which looks like the only thing you are capable of doing, as of now. (Signed anon editor) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.120.46.164 (talk • contribs)

Criticism sections are very common in wikipedia, primarily to allow folks to slander public figures they dislike... but they are rarely encyclopedic. Get Over It! Wikipedia doesn't exist to reflect the general views of the American majority. Palenque 03:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

POV

I am disputing the nuetrality of this page because editors have deleted cited material criticising Che and have not replaced it with anything. The "talk", so called, called for a re-write of the legacy and criticism but nothing of the sort was done. Z, has ONLY deleted the criticism section. I have restored it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.15.112.129 (talk • contribs)

Criticism rewrite 1

(Critics of the criticism page do not have a legit point on credibility of sources. You may dispute with sources, but deletion of cited material, as has been done on this page, constitutes a violation of NPOV rules)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.15.112.129 (talk • contribs)

Though he has been labeled by some as a hero, opponents of Guevara, including most of the Cuban exile community and some refugees from other countries under communism, view him as a killer and terrorist. They claim that he ordered the execution of hundreds of people in Cuban prisons and peasants against the Cuban Revolution in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces. New York Sun writer, Williams Myers, labels Che as a “sociopathic thug”. Other US newspaper critics have made similar remarks. These critics believe that Che Guevara was personally responsible for the torture and execution of hundreds of people in Cuban prisons, and the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces. They also believe that Guevara was a “blundering tactician” with no combat victories, not a revolutionary genius. They dispute accounts of the Battle of Santa Clara; on the capturing of a train supplying heavy reinforcements, critic Álvaro Vargas Llosa writes, "Numerous testimonies indicate that the commander of the train surrendered in advance, perhaps after taking bribes."

Critics believe Guevara founded Cuba's forced labor camp system, establishing its first forced labor camp in Guanahacabibes to re-educate managers of state-owned enterprises who were guilty of various violations of "revolutionary ethics". Many years after Guevara's death, Cuba's labor camp system was used to jail dissidents of the Revolution. Critics also believe Che executed more than just political figures, but also political dissidents.

Some claim Guevara was a failure at managing the Cuban economy, as he "oversaw the near-collapse of sugar production, the failure of industrialization, and the introduction of rationing—all this in what had been one of Latin America’s four most economically successful countries since before the Batista dictatorship." There is also the belief by some critics that, because there is no documentary evidence of Guevara having earned a medical degree, he was not actually a doctor.

In "The Cult of Che", writer Paul Berman critiques the film The Motorcycle Diaries and argues "that modern-day cult of Che" obscures the "tremendous social struggle" currently taking place in Cuba. For example, the article discusses the jailing of dissidents, such as poet and journalist Raúl Rivero, who was eventually freed after worldwide pressure due to a campaign of solidarity by the International Committee for Democracy in Cuba which included Václav Havel, Lech Wałęsa, Árpád Göncz, Elena Bonner and others. Berman claims that in the U.S., where Motorcycle Diaries received standing ovations at the Sundance film festival, the adoration of Che has caused Americans to overlook the plight of dissident Cubans. This glorification of Che is also satirized by online site che-mart.com, which, among other things, markets T-shirts poking fun at both Guevara and his supporters, casting aspersions on what they perceive as an irony: Che Guevara as one of capitalism's hottest-selling images.

Although much criticism of Guevara and his legacy emanates from the political center and right, there has also been criticism from other political groups such as anarchists and civil libertarians, some of whom consider Guevara an authoritarian, anti-working-class Stalinist, whose goal was the creation of a more bureaucratic state-Stalinist regime.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.15.112.129 (talk • contribs)

Criticism section

Criticism of Che Guevara

Though he has been labeled by some as a hero, opponents of Guevara, including most of the Cuban exile community and some refugees from other countries under communism, view him as a killer and terrorist. They claim that he ordered the execution of hundreds of people in Cuban prisons and peasants against the Cuban Revolution in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces. New York Sun writer, Williams Myers, labels Che as a “sociopathic thug”. Other US newspaper critics have made similar remarks. These critics point out that Che Guevara was personally responsible for the torture and execution of hundreds of people in Cuban prisons, and the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces. They also believe that Guevara was a “blundering tactician”, not a revolutionary genius, who has not one recorded combat victory. Guevara founded Cuba's forced labor camp system, establishing its first forced labor camp in Guanahacabibes to re-educate managers of state-owned enterprises who were guilty of various violations of "revolutionary ethics". Many years after Guevara's death, Cuba's labor camp system was used to jail dissidents of the Revolution. Critics believe Guevara was ineffective and in reality a poor tactician. They dispute accounts of the Battle of Santa Clara; on the capturing of a train supplying heavy reinforcements, critic Álvaro Vargas Llosa writes, "Numerous testimonies indicate that the commander of the train surrendered in advance, perhaps after taking bribes."

Some claim Guevara was a failure at managing the Cuban economy, as he "oversaw the near-collapse of sugar production, the failure of industrialization, and the introduction of rationing—all this in what had been one of Latin America’s four most economically successful countries since before the Batista dictatorship." There is also the belief by some critics that, because there is no documentary evidence of Guevara having earned a medical degree, he was not actually a doctor.

In "The Cult of Che", writer Paul Berman critiques the film The Motorcycle Diaries and argues "that modern-day cult of Che" obscures the "tremendous social struggle" currently taking place in Cuba. For example, the article discusses the jailing of dissidents, such as poet and journalist Raúl Rivero, who was eventually freed after worldwide pressure due to a campaign of solidarity by the International Committee for Democracy in Cuba which included Václav Havel, Lech Wałęsa, Árpád Göncz, Elena Bonner and others. Berman claims that in the U.S., where Motorcycle Diaries received standing ovations at the Sundance film festival, the adoration of Che has caused Americans to overlook the plight of dissident Cubans. This glorification of Che is also satirized by online site che-mart.com, which, among other things, markets T-shirts poking fun at both Guevara and his supporters, casting aspersions on what they perceive as an irony: Che Guevara as one of capitalism's hottest-selling images.

Critics also believe Che executed more than just political figures, but also political dissidents. Although much criticism of Guevara and his legacy emanates from the political center and right, there has also been criticism from other political groups such as anarchists and civil libertarians, some of whom consider Guevara an authoritarian, anti-working-class Stalinist, whose goal was the creation of a more bureaucratic state-Stalinist regime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.15.112.129 (talk • contribs)

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Just because you don't like the sources or do not like what the sources say does not mean you can delete it. This is called bias, it is also a violation of the rules on NPOV —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.15.112.129 (talk • contribs)

---

Propagandists have been systematically removing criticism of Che from this page. Not surprisingly, these are the same editors removing cited criticism from other "celebrated" communist pages. You all do not have the power to decide what is right and wrong, this leads to a one sided biased account.

The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.15.112.129 (talk • contribs) .

To reiterate: The New York Sun is barely journalism, much less a credible source on historical figures. I could find alot of people who don't like Che, but does say, your uncle's opinion belong here? Well the answer is no, just becasue some nobody has expressed an opinon, it does NOT mean we have to include it in an encyclopedia. If you want to get your shots in on Che, or anyone else for that matter, start a blog. This isn't the place for quoting ad hominem attacks. Palenque 03:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages

Please sign posts. This is a very active talk page and editors find it much easier to reply if they know who made posts. Having to search the edit history is time consuming and sometimes it is difficult to find who posted what .Thanks.--Dakota 20:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Kinda difficult to sign if your anon don't you think? (Anon)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.120.46.164 (talk • contribs)

No it is not difficult for an anon just enter four tildes~~~~ at the end of your post. You can also use the edit toolbar option , click the signature icon () to add the four tildes.--Dakota 02:34, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

There is already a User:Anon also.--Dakota 06:49, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Concerning "criticism" sections

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:What_is_a_featured_article%3F#Criticism_sections -- Polaris999 20:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

This obviously has not been done here on this page (Anon) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.120.46.164 (talk • contribs)

Wikipedia guideline re editing "Featured Articles"

"New users in particular are often entranced by the openness of Wikipedia and dive right in. That's a good thing. But please note: 'be bold in updating pages' does not mean that you should make large changes or deletions to long articles on complex, controversial subjects with long histories, such as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or abortion, without carefully looking at your edit. In addition, making large-scale changes to Featured articles, which are recognized as Wikipedia's best articles for their completeness, accuracy, and neutrality, is often a bad idea. In many such cases the text as you find it has come into being after long and arduous negotiations between Wikipedians of diverse backgrounds and points of view. An incautious edit to such an article can be likened to stirring up a hornet's nest, and other users who are involved in the page may react angrily.

"If you would like to edit an article on a controversial subject, it's a useful idea to first read the article in its entirety, read the comments on the talk page, and view the page history to get a sense of how the article came into being and what its current status is. It's also worth reading around some related articles, as what you thought was a problem or omission may vanish after you have followed a few links.

"If you expect or see a disagreement with your version of the article, and you want to change or delete anything substantial in the text, it's a good idea to list your objections one by one in the talk page, reasonably quoting the disputed phrases, explaining your reasoning and providing solid references... If there is a WikiProject associated with the page, you might also want to mention your proposed changes there if they are substantial.

"Then, wait for responses for at least a day: people edit Wikipedia in their spare time and may not respond immediately. If no one objects, proceed, but always move large deletions to the Talk page and list your objections to the text so that other people will understand your changes and will be able to follow the history of the page. Also be sure to leave a descriptive edit summary detailing your change and reasoning."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Be_bold_in_updating_pages#...but_don.27t_be_reckless.21

In conformity with the above guideline, I am moving the changes proposed by the Anon user ( who has been posting here as 71.15.112.129 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)    and   129.120.46.156 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) ) from the Che Guevara article onto this Talk page where they can be evaluated, discussed, modified, etc. as the guideline specifies. Please see moved text in quotes below:

-- Polaris999 20:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Hola, Polaris this editor agrees. It is a good idea to discuss any content changes on the talk page before before actually editing any article. This being a featured article and marked as a controversial one perhaps even more so. Only by discussion, evaluation of the proposed content and agreed modification can the content remain encyclopedic and free of pov.--Dakota 02:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

"==Criticism== "Che Guevara is a polarizing and hotly disputed historical person. Some admire Che and others despise him. This section reflects the historical and modern opinions of persons critical of Che Guevara as a political figure, military leader, and revolutionary. Critics of Che mainly include the Cuban exile community and center-right persons. Critics believe that Che Guevara was personally responsible for the torture and execution of hundreds of people in Cuban prisons, and the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces. New York Sun writer, Williams Myers, labels Che as a “sociopathic thug”. They also believe that Guevara was a “blundering tactician” with no combat victories, not a revolutionary genius. Critics dispute accounts of the Battle of Santa Clara, which according to supporters of Che, was his largest military victory by capturing a train supplying heavy reinforcements. Critic Álvaro Vargas Llosa writes, "Numerous testimonies indicate that the commander of the train surrendered in advance, perhaps after taking bribes." "Critics believe Guevara founded Cuba's forced labor camp system, establishing its first forced labor camp in Guanahacabibes to re-educate managers of state-owned enterprises who were guilty of various violations of "revolutionary ethics". Many years after Guevara's death, Cuba's labor camp system was used to jail dissidents of the Revolution. "Critics also believe Che executed more than just political figures, but also political dissidents. "Some claim Guevara was a failure at managing the Cuban economy, as he "oversaw the near-collapse of sugar production, the failure of industrialization, and the introduction of rationing—all this in what had been one of Latin America’s four most economically successful countries since before the Batista dictatorship." There is also the belief by some critics that, because there is no documentary evidence of Guevara having earned a medical degree, he was not actually a doctor. "In "The Cult of Che", writer Paul Berman critiques the film The Motorcycle Diaries and argues "that modern-day cult of Che" obscures the "tremendous social struggle" currently taking place in Cuba. For example, the article discusses the jailing of dissidents, such as poet and journalist Raúl Rivero, who was eventually freed after worldwide pressure due to a campaign of solidarity by the International Committee for Democracy in Cuba which included Václav Havel, Lech Wałęsa, Árpád Göncz, Elena Bonner and others. Berman claims that in the U.S., where Motorcycle Diaries received standing ovations at the Sundance film festival, the adoration of Che has caused Americans to overlook the plight of dissident Cubans. This glorification of Che is also satirized by online site che-mart.com, which, among other things, markets T-shirts poking fun at both Guevara and his supporters, casting aspersions on what they perceive as an irony: Che Guevara as one of capitalism's hottest-selling images. "Although much criticism of Guevara and his legacy emanates from the political center and right, there has also been criticism from other political groups such as anarchists and civil libertarians, some of whom consider Guevara an authoritarian, anti-working-class Stalinist, whose goal was the creation of a more bureaucratic state-Stalinist regime."

Ok, here’s a point-by-point breakdown on this piece. 1) The opening paragraph which speaks about the “criticism section” itself doesn’t belong in an encyclopedic entry. I don’t understand the need for a “warning to what is to follow” in an entry like this.

2) “Critics believe that Che Guevara was personally responsible for the torture and execution of hundreds of people in Cuban prisons, and the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces.”

This isn’t a matter of “critics believing.” The fact that Guevara was responsible for many deaths is widely known – it’s almost like saying “Some believe Henry Ford founded the Ford Motor Company.” That said, I don’t know that we should be getting into numbers here. Numerous others have attempted to attach an exact number to the amount of executions, murders, what have you, of the Castro regime. Seems very difficult to get an actual number for this.

3) The fact that the Cuban economy collapsed under Guevara’s stewardship is also well known and not an opinion as is suggested.

4) The entry also seems to tacitly suggest that it is really only the Cuban-American community that see Guevara as a “criminal.” I’m not sure this sentence is really appropriate. It would be better simply to say that Guevara is a polarizing figure – something along those lines.

Hope this helps.

Goatboy95 23:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

2) and 3) 'Common knowledge' is not a valid source. --Nyp 04:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Almost all of Goatboy's comments can be verified by numerous mainstream and key sources, so therefore they are as close to common knowledge as could be. More pressing is the fact that our own article details these factors anyway using sources, rendering the "critics' opinions" largely redundant. I agree with Goatboy that they tacitly reduce any credibility of the claims themselves. Guevara was responsible for many deaths, as one would expect from a self described guerrilla fighter. It is rather like having a criticism section on the Field Marshall Montgomery page, presenting, "critics say Montgomery was responsible for many deaths". --Zleitzen 09:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding this part of the removed/revised section;

Critics dispute accounts of the Battle of Santa Clara, which according to supporters of Che, was his largest military victory by capturing a train supplying heavy reinforcements. Critic Álvaro Vargas Llosa writes, "Numerous testimonies indicate that the commander of the train surrendered in advance, perhaps after taking bribes

The problem with this paragraph (other than the fact that it doesn't read correctly) is that I have not read any testimonies to say that the capture of the train was anything more than what is described above, nor does our article suggest anything to the contrary. Soldiers sought refuge in a train, but by that time morale among soldiers was so low that a truce had been sought, the soldiers saying that "they were tired of fighting against their own people" according to one historical account. I would be interested to read sources from supporters of Guevara which point to that incident as evidence of Guevara's heroism. It would seem to be a straw man creation of little value, though the incident could helpfully be explored in the article or elsewhere. --Zleitzen 09:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

-So where are the points detailing accusations of murder by Che? People do in fact claim that Che not only personally ordered executions of non political and military persons but that he personally ordered or carried out the torture of noncombatants. -where is evidence that Che may have seized private property, and rather than use it for communist purposes, used it for his own personal pleasure? -Where is the fact of his failure to run the economy. -Why is there no other mention of his military record when the critics suggest he has no combat victories. -Why is there no other mentioning that no record of him completing medical school exists?

All of the criticism COULD be put in the main body, but it has not been placed there. I also doubt that if it was there, it would stay for very long. It seems to me there are people on here who are more adept to criticizing why something should not be present than working with editors to include the material by improving it. (Do it yourself) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.15.112.129 (talk • contribs)

The "battle" of Santa Clara

Z: "El Mejicano" Capitan Francisco Rodriguez Tamayo (who has been alleged involved im the JFK assasination [1] [2] something I find hard to believe) has been reported in several sources e.g. [3][4] [5][6] to have declared that the train episode was a result of bribery. The original statement appeared in a Francisco Rodriguez Tamayo (El Diario de Nueva York, June 25th 1959) as yet I have not obtained the original text. Apparently early in the 1960s El Mejicano, who had been sent to kill Rolando Masferrer in Florida, defected instead. This appears not relate to Masferrer's later death. By the way as a number of other communists (e.g. Vittorio Vidale) Masferrer was a stalinist killer during the Spanish Civil War, he was wounded in a foot, and in much literature Masferrer is denoted by his stepfalls. his victims are putatively to heard his irregular steps in their last moments. I wish this "El Mejicano" (there were several" with this nickname in Cuba at the time) would write down his memories. It is my understanding that a movie with the running title of "El Tigre" on Masferrer (a long standing enemy of Castro) is soon to be available [7], [8][9]. El Jigue 12-12-06

EJ, it seems quite feasible that the train episode involved some kind of financial cohersion. I believe Polaris has been considering a Battle of Santa Clara article where editors could fully explore this. --Zleitzen 20:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi EJ and Z. Do you think we should create such an article? Right now it seems to me that we don't have much WP:V information to put into it, but if you think it's a good idea, let's proceed. -- Polaris999 22:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Z: There is a first hand narration from Directorio Rebel Santiago de Juan in the book Soldier's Verse [10]. Here Santiago narrates in prose and verse some events of those last days of that war in the middle provinces. El Jigue 11-12-06

Polaris: with the above cites and the Cuban official histories (which must be taken with a very large grin ((:>) pun intended) of salt) the should be quite enough material, although I think the actions at Guisa, Maffo etc had more military importance; or if you may prefer the title "plains campaigns" at the end of 1958. El Jigue 11-12-06

I think that something along the lines of The 'Plains' campaigns would be preferable since discussion of the prior actions is necessary to put Santa Clara (and Yaguajay) in context ... I hope Z and perhaps others will weigh in re the title. -- Polaris999 23:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Should this cover the earlier campaigns of the Muchachos de Lara, Daniel, Camilo Cienfuegos...? El Jigue 11-12-06 :Please stop the blogging, of the 'talk page'. GoodDay 23:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that it would make sense if it covered everything from the time the columns left the Sierra Maestra, culminating in the Battles of Santa Clara and Yaguajay. However, I suppose that the scope of such an article would be beyond what a "child" article of this Che Guevara article should cover. But at least we could, I believe, deal with events directly involving CG's column. Perhaps the best idea, to keep the focus firmly on Guevara, would be to entitle the child article "Actions of Che Guevara's Column 8", or some such? Then perhaps a similar article could be written about Camilo's column as a child article of the main article about Camilo? But, in this case, where will the activities of the Muchachos de Lara and Daniel be written about?-- Polaris999 00:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

There is already a Battle of Yaguajay article, Polaris, in case you were unaware. As well as Battle of Las Mercedes, Battle of La Plata and Operation Verano articles.--Zleitzen 02:48, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Zleitzen, indeed I had not seen the Battle of Yaguajay article. So, how then do you feel we should deal with CG's campaign, as a history of his Columna 8 or as a standalone Battle of Santa Clara piece? -- Polaris999 02:58, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it might be better as a Battle of Santa Clara article. With some background context that would cover the column’s activities. In an ideal world this would be a specialised article that neatly feeds off a variety of articles. But with only a skeleton staff of writers dealing with these topics it would be quite a task to organise all these articles to any great satisfaction. But at least it is progress.--Zleitzen 03:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I am a bit concerned about giving it the title Battle of Santa Clara when there seems to be some doubt as to whether it was a battle at all. However, that is probably one of the matters that we will be able to elucidate as we work on it and, if necessary, we can always re-title it later on. I think you have more information to put into it than I do, so why don't you start it whenever is convenient for you? -- Polaris999 03:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The event is widely referenced as the "battle of Santa Clara" though and it is not up to us wikipedia editors to start deciding what name or title an historical event should have when one is already in common usage. Canderra 04:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

If it is going to be called the "Battle of Santa Clara", I think we must all agree that whatever action occurred in that place at that time is going to be described under that title and there should not be any speech marks surrounding "battle" because that would hardly be appropriate. Whoever created this discussion topic inserted speech marks around the word "battle" in its title and I do not think that calling a wikipedia article The "Battle" of Santa Clara would be desirable. Do you agree on this point, Canderra? -- Polaris999 04:25, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I think an article that covers the period of the column's arrival at Santa Clara University, details the various skirmishes, the train incident and the political machinations behind the scenes would be good. I think it should be called the Battle of Santa Clara as per Hugh Thomas (showing my own bias as to preferred sources here) who describes it as such in his indexing. I realise that I have falsely attributed you with contemplating an article on this topic, Polaris. Looking back at the archives I can find no such comments, and I don't know where I got that idea from! My apologies! To make amends I will attempt to get the article started.--Zleitzen 14:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Zleitzen, I think our brain waves must have "crossed" because I had been wondering about the advisability of creating such an article, but had been stymied by concerns re the name issue discussed above. I am grateful that you have taken Occam's razor to all of this and will be creating the Battle of Santa Clara article! -- Polaris999 17:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Upper class / middle class

An anon user has amended the sentence -

Growing up in this upper-class family with leftist leanings, Guevara became known for his dynamic personality

to read middle class a couple of times. I would actually side with the anon user. I don't know about other users, but my understanding of the upper-class is the ruling class, aristocracy and so on. A very small elite. Guevara, a doctor by education would not be considered in these terms. Taking a look at the Upper class page I realise that the term has different meanings depending on culture. Does anyone have anymore thoughts on this?--Zleitzen 05:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Zleitzen -- Have you looked at CG's pedigree? All of his ancestors are from the highest echelon of the Argentine land-owning "aristocracy". Most of the wealth on the Lynch side of the family was reduced by the time Ernesto Sr. inherited his share by having been dispersed among many children (Ana Isabel was one of 12 siblings as I recall) and their offspring. Celia de la Serna inherited a considerable fortune from the estate of her deceased parents, but Ernesto Sr. managed to dissipate it within about 12-15 years after their marriage through unwise investments and profligate spending. Chichina, the girl to whom CG was apparently engaged, belongs to one of the most elite families in Argentina -- she would not have been allowed to even speak with him if her parents had not considered him to be her social "equal". For all of these reasons, and more, I do not think that "middle class" is an accurate description of his family's socioeconomic status, although "upper middle class" might be an accurate description of the family's economic status, especially after Ernesto Sr. wasted away Celia's inheritance. Their social status, on the other hand, can only be described as "upper class". In fact, I had originally written "upper middle class", but some user came by and changed it to "upper class" and after reviewing the facts which I have outlined above, I decided that his description was more correct and it has remained in the article ever since. On the other hand, I personally am not concerned about how CG's family status might be described, and I am quite certain he would not be either, so it doesn't matter to me one way or the other, but for the sake of preserving the highest standards of accuracy in Wikipedia, I hope that, when making a decision, you will take the facts I have cited into consideration. Cheers! -- Polaris999 06:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

As per usual I will bow to your thorough analysis, Polaris. I also hadn't considered that of course Chichina was very much a lady of the Argentine elite. So ignore my query on this. Thanks.--Zleitzen 06:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Another user has taken up the cause of the class issue moving it back to middle class. I've changed it to upper middle class to reflect the above discussion. I had no idea how culturally relative this issue is though. On the upper middle class page, it gives a signifier of upper middle class status as a "vacation in Hawaii" and a "luxury car"! Good lord no!--Zleitzen 14:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

You guys are trying to fuck fleas in the ass...

(...while fleas are in flight...)

Nobody knows if Guevara was upper middle class or lower upper class.

And well, according to who ?

Ericd 18:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#How to use article talk pages. Thanks. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 18:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Um, Che Guevara was born into a middle class family. This is virtually undisputed by anyone (outside of this place obviously). Of course, you have to have an understanding of class to define Che's. Don't we work on sourced info around here? Even the BBC, a bourgeois media outlet, hardly friendly to communism or Che, says he was middle class. Check out http://www.companeroche.com/index.php?id=92 It contains an article from the BBC that reads: "A former medical student from a very middle class Argentine family, Ernesto "Che" Guevara was an unlikely revolutionary hero." I'm changing it back. Redflagflying 09:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not following the comments by a couple of users above. The point here is to try and write an accurate article as it is anywhere on wikipedia. Having read the analysis of Polaris, who is responsible for editing most of the accurate detail on this featured article, it would seem that to maintain accuracy, middle class would not be a fitting term. For the record here are contradictory sources which define Guevara's upper-class upbringing and thus dispute the indisputable [11] Here's another from the Guardian

"He had this Castilian Spanish upper-class guilt about the working class" [12]

Here's another [13] And another [14] Here is a description of Chichina's "upperclass" family [15] There are many others. Therefore it would seem to be that "upper middle class" was more accurate than middle-class.--Zleitzen 13:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

You people have to be joking me, using sources like "national geographic," one of the most anti-communist media outlets ever. I'm sure they have no motive behind their description of Che as upper class... yeah right. There is a thing called objective fact. The objective facts here are that Che was born into a family of middle class (petty bourgeois) professionals. He wasn't born into a family of the ruling class. His family were not capitalists. Capitalists make up the "upper class". Class is not determined by how much money one has, or what kind of vacations they take (what kind of ridiculous shit is that??), it's determined by one's relation to the means of production. Che's family was not made up of capitalists (upper class), nor was it made up of workers (proletarians), nor was it made up of lumpenproletariat (street criminals), nor was it made up of peasants. It was made up of professionals, middle class, petit-bourgeoisie, petty bourgeoisie. This isn't even something that's up for debate anywhere but here, where common misconceptions win out over fact. Redflagflying 17:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

You write, there is a thing called objective fact. And that this isn't something up for debate anywhere but here. Apparently the issue is more subjective than we thought - see sources again, and there is a debate here, I'm afraid. As we can quickly establish - all of Guevara's ancestors are from the highest echelon of the Argentine land-owning "aristocracy", and Guevara's father received a large inheritance. That would seem to contradict your analysis. According to biographer Jon Lee Anderson, Guevara's father bought two hundred hectares of land along the banks of the Río Paraná, and "with an entrepreneur’s eye" attempted to restore the family fortunes. After Guevara's parents married they were admired as "rich and admirable people" whose home by the river was "a mansion". After the failure of Guevara snr's plantation, they lived on his sister's "colonial estate". --Zleitzen 17:53, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Guevara's father received a large inheritance, but his mother received a huge inheritance and the family basically lived off it until Ernesto, Sr. had spent/wasted all of it, which had occurred by the time Ernesto, Jr. (aka Che) turned 15. I think the main problem here is that the social and economic position of this family was too complex to be summarized in one word. -- Polaris999 18:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I should add that the national geographic was used to reference Chichina's "upperclass" family. I don't believe that is possible to dispute. While other sources that refer to the "upper class" Che include The Guardian newspaper, is that an anti-Guevara media outlet? So again I am no wiser as to the points made to dispute the upper-middle class compromise. But I do believe a brief description of the Guevara family status is required.--Zleitzen 18:53, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

As noted above, upper-middle class has specific connotations (mainly, it connotes upward mobility from the middle class) that are wrong here. It would be more accurate to say something like "descended on both sides from Argentina's elite, but his own father's lavish spending and poor investments had reduced them to a middle-class standard of living". - Jmabel | Talk - 21:25, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

La Lynch

Apparently Guevara's second surname Lynch does not related to Paraguay Chaco War dictator Francisco Solano Lopez's famous mistress Elisa Alicia Lynch [16]. It seems her surviving sons took the dictator's last name. However, the name Lynch was originally Irish, as is its application to violence, thus the Elisa and the Che may well have had consanguineous roots. El Jigue 12-1-06

Which part of this information, do you think can be added to the article? Remember you're not banned from editing articles. GoodDay 23:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Aureliano [17] let us wait to see if this shows up. It is probably correct that there is potential consanguinuity but not a close relationship. BTW Is there a Wikipedia page on Elisa Alicia Lynch she certainly deserves one. El Jigue 12-02-06

I recommend that you should create a 'Elisa Alicia Lynch' article. GoodDay 23:58, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Among Jorge Luis Borges's pseudonyms were B. Lynch Davis and B. Suárez Lynch. He tended to make pseudonyms out of the names of relatives and occasionally friend's relatives. Does anyone know if it is the same Lynch family (I'd guess it is) and what exactly was Borges connection? - Jmabel | Talk

His last words

Actualy I have read that the oficial report says that his last words were "Párese derecho y apunte bien, va usted a matar a un hombre", which translated would mean "Stand straigth and aim right, you are going to kill a man" and not "I know you are here to kill me. Shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man".

Beker 21:00, 2 December 2006

Maybe we should re-visit this matter. I, too, have read that the words cited by "Beker" (above) were the last ones uttered by CG. How do other editors feel about this? -- Polaris999 21:50, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

There is a different version far less flattering. He may have been wounded deliberately before in revenge for the cruel execution of William Morgan. However, my recall of such reports could be faulty (:>) El Jigue 12-2-06

Does anyone know of a source for this ... ?

IP 67.189.188.140 has added the words bolded below to the fourth paragraph of the "Congo/Expedition" subsection:

South African mercenaries including Mike Hoare, a US Army Special Forces detachment, and Cuban exiles worked with the Congolese army to thwart Guevara.

While I have heard reports that a US Army Special Forces detachment was indeed involved, I am not aware of any WP:V source to support this assertion. Therefore, I am obliged to remove those words (the bolded ones) from the article until IP 67.189.188.140 or someone else can provide a verifiable source. -- Polaris999 23:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Polaris, it is my understanding, that Mad Mike and some Cuban exiles did chase Guevara out of the Congo. When I get the time will check my references on this. El Jigue 12-2-06

Thank you very much, El Jigue. Additional documentation re "Mad Mike" and the Cuban exiles would be valuable. Since we do have some verifiable sources for that information, I decided to leave it in the article. However, the matter of the "US Army Special Forces" remains source-less. Perhaps the Cuban exiles might have been operating as US Army Special Forces? If they were, this would solve the mystery ... -- Polaris999 06:31, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Supposedly for I have not read it Mike Hoare's 1991 book "Congo Warriors" Robert Hale Ltd (February 28, 1991) ISBN: 0709043694 mentions Cuban exile pilots. The pilots e.g. [18] or "The CIA replaced Tshombe's T6s with new T-28Ds, and recruited additional pilots and ground crew to operate them. The new air campaign required a far larger investment in personnel and equipment than had hitherto been the case. More than twenty Cuban pilots were now flying in the Congo, supported by Cuban ground crews." [19] I knew about I was thinking ground forces. Jigue 12-6-06

Felix Rodriguez in 1989 Shadow Warrior Simon and Schuster New York states he never fought in the Congo. ISBN 0671667211 pp. 261 snd 265. El Jigue 12 6-06

Insurrection in Bolivia Actually Intended Towards Argentina

Recently (2001), a documentary was made entitled Sacrificio: Who Betrayed Che Guevara. In this film Ciro Bustos, Che's number 1 in Bolivia, tells how they were actually planning on an insurrection in Argentina and were using Bolivia as an outpost. Ciro Bustos himself said this in an interview in the doumentary. ~lvleph 13 Dec 2006

Signature

There is no basis to say his act of signing as Che was an act of disdain or irony, in fact the note says that it was not. Chico 19:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

It is probably true that it is better not to attach any motive to his signing the banknotes as he did and let readers decide for themselves what he intended by it. -- Polaris999 19:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Existence of Money

I think sources are needed to say "he was opposed to the existence of money and favored its speedy abolition". Chico 21:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you, Chico, and intend to provide them as soon as time permits. -- Polaris999 01:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Latin American intellectuals

An editor has added this to the legacy section:

Latin American intellectuals Octavio Paz, Mario Vargas Llosa, Jorge Edwards, Enrique Krauze, Carlos Franqui, Jorge Castañeda and others contributed to demystify the image of Guevara.

This I believe is largely true. However there is no source, and I fear it may be classed as original research, if not now, but in the future. Does anyone have any thoughts on how to proceed. I will ask the editor to contribute.--Zleitzen 02:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I added the paragraph. Do you want me to insert multiple sources (multiple endnotes make bad reading)? The above-mentioned writers are very well-known for their condemnation of Fidel Castro’s regime and revolution fantasies in Latin America. ―Cesar Tort 03:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Cesar Tort, its worth considering the best way to approach this, because I guarantee someone at some stage someone will demand a source - or will remove it in time. I know that Krauze, Franqui and Castañeda are particular critics - the point is very valid, and interesting so I want it to stay. If you check the page, the use of content notes has become very effective. If you wish to assist, you could add sources to this page and I'll dig up some myself so we can turn this into another brief content note.--Zleitzen 03:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I’ll add the sources tonight. —Cesar Tort 03:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Great Cesar, could you stick them on this talk page and we'll fashion a content note. I view editing here as protecting the good stuff and removing the bad, and have learnt that if material is worth keeping it needs a stern defence of sources!--Zleitzen 03:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I added the sources before reading your above communication. Letras Libres, published in Mexico and Spain, is a reliable source (as well as the house which publishes Paz's complete works). But I guess the sources will have to be changed to "paper journal sources" format (as is Letras Libres)? —Cesar Tort 05:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I've turned the 4 refs into one for the moment (I don't know why more pages don't do this) so there is no need to worry about multiple endnotes. And we can format them later them and perhaps consider turning it into a content note, or at least add more context within the reference. Thanks.--Zleitzen 05:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Great! Here I post info for another conversion to content note:

cite book

last = Debray

first = Régis

title = Alabados sean nuestros señores. Una educación política (Ediciones del taller de Mario Muchnik)

year = 1999

The same can be read online. [20]

Now I will try to search in my personal library to find the Letras Libres issue in paper. —Cesar Tort 06:06, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

It now seems that the December 2006 issue of Letras Libres that I have is not the same that appears in the web [21] (the issue’s content of that periodical varies from Mexico to Spain). But it’s unnecessary: that article was about Jon Lee Anderson’s biography, and it’s easy to find a similar paper reference in English (the other sources I posted are in Spanish). —Cesar Tort 07:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

“The most famous photograph…”

Good job Zleitzen! Hitchens is so good as an iconoclast (just see his book about Mother Teresa…)!

Now I am concerned about the photo-icon. What troubles me is that posting that icon at the top of the page is pretty much symptomatic of the continuing incarnation of the Guevara myth. A more prosaic photo ought to appear at the top of the article, and only post “the most famous photo” when the text deals with the icon. In totalitarian countries it was a very common trick to publicize iconic-like photos of the political leaders. If the WP goal is to write a dry encyclopedic article, unidealistic terms and photos should be the rule. —Cesar Tort 08:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe there has been a discussion about this in the past, and the consensus was to continue using the Korda photograph. Though I wasn't present then to add my thoughts. To me, the photo itself is merely a clear photograph taken by Korda of the subject at a key moment in Cuban history. Personally I don't perceive it to be a continuation of the Guevara myth. I reserve those thoughts for the prints and modified versions. On the wider subject, it seems to me that in all societies it is a very common trick to publicize iconic-like photos of the leaders, political or otherwise. The Queen, whose image is replicated on all British money, stamps and until fairly recently could be found in most buildings, is not generally depicted scratching her arse. On wikipedia, Articles on most political leaders seem to carry actual official photos, and even signatures in the case of US presidents. The Augusto Pinochet article had an extravagant oil painting the last time I looked. (Update) No, its a treated photograph. --Zleitzen 11:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Still, Pinochet’s photo has not become an icon. I can only hope that in the future other editors will see the trickish snare of publishing a propaganda photo that conveys the feeling of a hero that Guevara never was. —Cesar Tort 18:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I have always opposed the use of the "iconic image" which is currently displayed as the lead photo, principally because it is "doctored" (the eyes have been modified) and therefore I consider that it is not really an image of him at all. Back in April, I inserted one of the last photos taken of him in Bolivia (shown at left)

File:Chepipabol.jpg

as a substitute, but it did not take long for the proponents of the "iconic" to replace it with their favorite. You can read some of their comments in favor of the "iconic" here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Che_Guevara/Archive_5#Portrait.

It would seem to me that the "iconic" is not set in stone, so to speak, and that you or any other editor who can find a suitable portrait of equal resolution with appropriate licensing for Wikipedia is free to upload it and use it to replace the "iconic" at any time. -- Polaris999 19:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I have read the April exchange. Perhaps the debate can be resolved by posting the above photo at the top of the page and the cult photo below in the text? —Cesar Tort 19:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the cult photo could go in the cult section? That would indeed seem fitting. Why don't you give it a try and watch for the reaction? -- Polaris999 21:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I assumed that the photo on the page was the undoctored one and hadn't paid close enough attention to the fake eyes. In which case I think this is the undoctored photo is it not? --Zleitzen 20:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

frame|right|Alberto Korda's photograph of Che Guevara

Yes, Zleitzen, that is the case to the best of my knowledge. Furthermore, in one more attempt to remove the "iconic" from the lead photo slot, I made a cropped version of the photo that you have inserted here (i.e., the photo that Korda actually took) so that the other man's arm and face did not appear in it, and I uploaded that version to WP and made it the "lead photo". However, not many days passed before the fans of the "iconic" restored their favorite to that position ... -- Polaris999 21:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Are those fans still editing this article? —Cesar Tort 21:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Most of those fans were never very active editors of the article -- they only made their presence known when someone attempted to replace the "iconic". -- Polaris999 21:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Does that mean that we have now consensus? What do you think Zleitzen? ―Cesar Tort 22:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the best option is the one that Polaris attempted previously, a cropped version of the actual Korda photo (which I had mistakenly assumed was on the page - my eyes don't seem to be what they were as Polaris will testify, in the past I mistook some shadows on a young Fidel Castro's face to be a goatee!). To consiously replace it with the modified "iconic" photo looks like a poor effort on the part of those editors. Despite the actual Korda image still carrying certain connotations for certain people, it is clearly the best photograph of the subject, and for younger readers, will assist them making the link between what may be an obscure name with a familiar image.--Zleitzen 23:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The cropped image I made was deleted after the fans of "iconic" removed it from the article, leaving it linkless. Therefore, I have uploaded it again and will insert it here (below) so that it will not be immediately deleted again. -- Polaris999 00:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

center

Hi Polaris, I've replaced the pics to see if the shoe fits. And will scour the history for the names of those who replaced it before, to be added to the black book of Zleitzen for future reference!--Zleitzen 01:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Zleitzen. This picture isn't the best of CG that exists, but at least it is a real photo. BTW I don't think that anyone could have made out what was going on with all of those dark spots on the "black suit" photograph of FCR without having seen a better rendition of it previously, so I don't think your eyes are to blame! Re deletion of this CG image previously, I believe I uploaded it and made it the lead photo ca. 30 April 2006, so removal (followed by deletion) must have occurred not long thereafter. -- Polaris999 02:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe this is the edit Polaris - [22]. On the topic of Korda, the best photograph of his that I have ever seen is the one of Fidel Castro looking up at the Lincoln memorial, as the huge Lincoln statue looks back down on him. Beard to beard as it were. "The little man and the big man". But I can't find this anywhere on the net and don't have a copy myself.--Zleitzen 02:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the edit you have identified is the one that restored "iconic". I have never seen that photo of FCR and Lincoln, nor encountered any reference to it. If I ever come across it in the future, I will certainly forward a link to you. -- Polaris999 02:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Found it [23]! Though the small image doesn't really do it justice.--Zleitzen 02:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

“I've tried a bit of a reword on the latest additions - I hope this is acceptable” ―Zleitzen in edit summary.

Good rewording! My native language is Spanish and sometimes I don’t find the right words. ―Cesar Tort 04:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Please link this video

This is a great 30 minute video on Che that I think people will help get a sense of who Che was.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2825077734855289100&hl=en

I would do this but I am new to wikipedia and I don't want to mess with the site. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.80.232.111 (talk) 06:24, 22 December 2006 (UTC).

Ah, Mark Steele. Excellant find, my friend. Probably the only Steel lecture I haven't seen, and I shall enjoy this over roasted chestnuts and hot tatties.--Zleitzen 00:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for help

Hi Everyone,

I know this isn't directly related to the article on Che Guevara, but it is loosely related.

I am one of the main contributors of the article on Eva Peron, and I have based the article in many ways on this article about Che. We are currently having a bit of an edit war over whether images of Time magazine covers with Evita are allowed on the page, as well as whether a (please don't laugh) still of Lisa Simpson in the episode The President Wore Pearls is acceptable.

I note that there are images of Che on covers of magazines, so I was wondering if some editors here could offer some help. I am getting very frustrated, to the point where I almost want to abandon the article due to some of the hostility I'm having to endure. But the Eva Peron article recently made it to Good Article status (largely due to my contributions, though you wouldn't know it for some of the hostility I'm facing), so I don't want to abandon it. There is talk that the article is a good candidate for FA status, though it will obviously need some work to get there.

Any help in any regard would be appreciated.

Thank you.

In Good Faith,

Andrew Parodi 14:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello there,

As a photo news editor, I can tell you with some authority that the use of a magazine cover is perfectly legal and acceptable. You would not be able to use the lone image employed on the magazine's cover without the photographer's permission however, use of the actualy magazine cover is fine.

Cheers,

Goatboy95 18:08, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Category:People from...

Is there a problem with my deleting Category:People from Santa Fe Province? The specific category Category:People from Rosario is included in it and works alone fine. There are some instances where parent and child categories are OK in an article, but doesn't seem to be the case. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 17:05, 27 December 2006 (UTC)