Talk:Charles James Lyall

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City named after him

Just to clarify - and I do not care that Encyclopedic Britannica online says otherwise - the subject of this article did not have a city named after him. That person was James Broadwood Lyall. Yes, there are sources saying otherwise, but they are wrong and can be matched by sources which correctly identify JBL. The statue in Faisalabad is a memorial to Sir James [Broadwood] Lyall, not Sir Charles [James] Lyall. Many of the incorrect sources have actually got their content from an earlier version of this and other WP articles which have mistakenly promoted the error. - Sitush (talk) 06:33, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@Atsme: I think you really need to check more sources before writing. Charles James Lyall was not Lt-Gov of the Punjab Province. The statue itself is marked to James Broadwood Lyall, and existing sources in this article - including the India List and ODNB - do not mention this most significant of offices held. I know the Routledge-published source says otherwise but it is plain wrong. Want more evidence? See this gazette entry. - Sitush (talk) 16:25, 14 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and for the avoidance of doubt please note that C J Lyall was never gazetted as anything related to the Punjab. - Sitush (talk) 16:57, 14 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sitush To be on the safe side, I'm researching sources in an effort to corroborate the information. I'm a bit reluctant to consider the Gazette over the Encyclopedia Britannica article but I do understand that no single source is perfect. If everything checks out, the misinformation should be/will be corrected. I apologize now if it turns out that I created extra work unnecessarily. The Pakistan Civil Aviation Authority credits Sir Charles James Lyall, and there's another Routledge book, page 155 that simply states: named after a British colonial administrator.

On the flip side, there are sources including publications by the Pakistani government such as this one that attributes the idea of a new town in 1880, to colonial officer, Captain Poham Young, with the support of Sir James Broadwood Lyall. Another gvt. source attributes the name to Lt. Gov Sir James Lyall. Yet another source states on pg 63 that it was named after British Governor Lyall. Among the most convincing sources so far are this report describing how the early canal colonies were named, as well as Sustainable Agricultural Development, Page 140, and Douies Manual, http://hid.gov.in/Douies%20Manual.pdf CHAPTER VI - Development of Settlement Policy in the Punjab, #45. History of Punjab settlements divided into five periods.^{Atsme📞📧} 19:17, 14 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. You're reinventing the wheel because this has been done in the past, notably in discussions that took place at a related article in 2011. But if it serves to give you peace of mind. Please note that Britannica is far from being infallible and the Gazette is the UK's official paper of record. - Sitush (talk) 19:54, 14 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See this re: Punjab role. Geographically, it makes no sense at all if C J Lyall was involved with the foundation of Lyallpur/Faisalabad. - Sitush (talk) 20:13, 14 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Following is what I've found, and it's a head-scratcher, Sitush.

Favoring Sir Charles James Lyall

The City in South Asia. Routledge. March 2008. p. 149. Retrieved April 14, 2017.
Encyclopedia Britannica
Independent UK: The town of Faisalbad was originally named Lyallpur,] after Sir Charles James Lyall, an ancestor of Mr Lyall Grant's.
Faisalabad Police: The city was founded by the British Lieutenant Governor, Sir Charles James Lyall in 1880, for whom it was originally named Lyallpur,
Encyclopaedia Of India, Pakistan And Bangladesh, Vol. 32006 by Om Gupta pg 705-706
Punjab Medical College Founded as "Lyallpur" in 1890, the city was named for "Sir Charles James Lyall (1845 - 1920), Lieutenant Governor Of The Punjab by the British Government.
page 145, Sikhism: An Introduction by Nikky-Guninder Kaur Singh. ...it was renamed the Lyall Kahlsa College after Sir Charles James Lyall (1845-1920), the Lieutenant-Governor of the Punjab.
page 348 Collected Works, Volume 16, Mahatma Gandhi. Also see page 182 The collected works of Mahatma Gandhi: (29 September, 1919 - 24 March, 1920)., Volume 19.
Pakistan-Ann Heinrichs....pg 26...after Punjab's British governor Sir Charles James Lyall.
Punjab: land, history, people, page 72 author: Ihsan H. Nadiem - original from University of Michigan - 2005 - ISBN 9695032834
The Knights of England, page 326. List includes Charles James Lyall as chief commissioner of the Central Provinces.
Punjabi World states: The city was founded by the British Lieutenant Governor of the Punjab, Sir Charles James Lyall for whom it was originally named Lyallpur.
Page 99 shows he acted as the officiating secretary to the Chief Commissioner of the British Raj.
^{[predatory publisher]} Research paper, pg 3 Atmospheric air pollution and mapping of Faisalabad city using syntax map method Faisalasbad: As a Test Case, The city was founded by the British in 1892 by Sir Charles James Lyall for whom it was originally named Lyallpur (Lieutenant Governor of Punjab, 1887-1892).... Department of Physics, G.C. University, Faisalabad, Punjab, Pakistan.

The above list substantiates Sir Charles James Lyall equally as well as sources that support James Broadwood Lyall. I'm leaning toward the Encyclopedia Britannica, the universities, and Mahatmi Gandhi, although I must admit that I'm partial to Mahatmi's rice so I may be biased.^[FBDB] I'm interested in your thoughts. ^{Atsme📞📧} 22:21, 14 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You are entitled to your opinion. Umpteen other people have looked at this and think differently. At least a few of the sources your mention are useless, and while WP:PRIMARY exists, it does not preclude the use of primary source entirely and, well, common sense. That so many official and pseudo-official (The Times, ODNB, Gazette etc ) sources make no mention of C J Lyall as LG of the Punjab etc has got to carry some weight. That said, I think you are now mixing up who was involved with the foundation of Lyallpur with who was Lieut-Governor - the recent reverts of your edits seem to have mostly concentrated on the latter. However, since Faisalabad is a long way from the Central Provinces, the geographical connection for the likelihood of C J Lyall being involved is fairly absurd when (a) we have someone else called Lyall governing the area at the right time and (b) whose name more logically applies as "Sir James", being the first of his names.

The obvious solution in the stupid Wikipedia world is to record both with some sort of proviso. I am not sure how that would be phrased, especially given the general crap-ness of many of the sources (not all) that favour CJL. I also note that the EB of 1911, which was closer to the event, does not support it. In fact, the earliest support for the CJL claim seems to be a book in the Dod's series published in the 1920s/1930s. I am absolutely convinced that CJL was never in charge of Punjab and, by extension, given his distance from it, had no influence on the foundation of Lyallpur. - Sitush (talk) 00:32, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I'm a bit perturbed at myself because, after all this time and during the GA Review, I didn't notice we had Sir Charles in the infobox, and Sir James in the body of the article [1] until today when 19thPharaoh corrected it, and you also brought it to my attention. After spending most of the afternoon reading and researching, there's no doubt in my mind that it's Sir James and not Sir Charles. I was pretty much sold on Sir James after I read page 10 of Unravelling Bhakra: Assessing the Temple Resurgent India wherein it states several new towns came to [be] founded, named after the respective Settlement Officers at that time like Lyallpur, Montgomery etc. The info was easily corroborated with other RS that confirm his position as a settlement officer who later became Lt.-Governor. I just felt obligated to dig deeper into the available sources and verify the info. As a result, I self-reverted at Faisalabad. Ok, moving forward, I have a question - is there a way we can permanently save this discussion on the TP for easy access, and link it to the TP of the other 3 or 4 related articles as a precautionary measure in the event the issue ever arises again? ^{Atsme📞📧} 02:06, 15 April 2017 (UTC) ^{I hatted the discussion at Faisalabad and added a do not archive template. Not sure how you want to handle it here and on the TP of Sir Charles James Lyall - maybe just wikilinks? 02:28, 15 April 2017 (UTC)}[reply]

I don't know how to handle it other than simply keeping an eye on the relevant articles. Obviously, that is not perfect: I did fix the Faisalabad article in 2011 but someone must have changed it later & I missed that change. - Sitush (talk) 08:30, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]