Talk:Charles, Prince of Commercy

A fact from Charles, Prince of Commercy appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 9 September 2009 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Charles of Lorraine-Commercy was the one of the most trusted lieutenants of Prince Eugene of Savoy?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2009/September.

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Name and title

I'm looking a bit into it (wanted to chgeck for possible interwiki) and it seems there is hardly any reference anywhere to him as "lorraine-commercy". As far as I can tell, most sources, and particularly French ones use "Lorraine-Elbeuf".

As to the titles, he seems to hardly have used or been referred to as "Comte de Rosnay". Either it was a subsidiary title (the main one being "Count of Lillebonne"), or it was to avoid confusion with an homonymous, distinct and more prominent count title, attached to the Navarre family Du Metz (Dumetz) Du Rosnay. A title that is frequently used, however is "Duke of Joyeuse" (I believe a duke is higher than a count? that could explain it), though sources clearly indicate that this title was confiscated in 1690.

Finally, the title of "Prince of Commercy" is also poorly confirmed. When it is mentioned, it seems to be an assumed title. Circeus (talk) 02:13, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

His full name was Charles of Lorraine-Elbeuf, Prince of Commercy, Count of Rosnay. The title of Count of Rosnay was inherited from his mother's family. The title of the "Duke of Joyese" was given by Louis XIV of France, in order to convince him to join the French army after his success in the Nine Years' War. Commercy chose to remain in the armies of the Holy Roman Empire. Then Louis XIV removed the title of Duke from Commercy. His common(and most used) name was Charles of Lorraine-Commercy, a title which he probably earned from his military service.--Alarichus (talk) 08:24, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be keen to see references to the information referred to by Alarichus, above. The county of Rosnay in Champagne was purchased in the 1660s by Commercy's aunt, Mlle d'Elbeuf, and willed to him by her. The title of Commercy itself refers to a tiny sovereignty purchased by his parents at the time of their marriage in 1660, which he also should have inherited, but being in service of a foreign prince, this was blocked by the French courts (illegally, since Commercy was not in France). Similarly, the French court blocked the donation of the Duchy-Peerage of Joyeuse, in Languedoc, donated to the Prince by his paternal cousin, Mlle de Guise, in 1688. Louis XIV had nothing to do with the donation of the estate, but he might have attempted to lure Commercy back by confirming the peerage. Despite him being "legally dead" in France from this point on, his succession of these properties to his sisters was not blocked.86.176.8.155 (talk) 10:32, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]