Talk:Charition mime

Charition mine and its possible Interpretation in kannada

These are included here so that some one can come with possibly more correct conclusions. The Play is given for reference.

The Simplified Play

A GREEK MAN : Mistress Charition, celebrate these things with me that I have escaped.

CHARITION : Great are the gods!

CLOWN : What gods? Moron!

(A fart.)

CHARITION : Stop it, mister!

A GREEK MAN : Wait for me here! I'll go and put the ship at anchor.

CHARITION : Go! But look! Their women are coming, too, back from the hunt.

CLOWN : Wow! What big bows they have!

WOMAN A  : Kraunou.

WOMAN B  : Lalle

WOMAN C  : Laitalianta lalle ab . . . aigm . . .

WOMAN D  : Kotakos anab . . . iosara

CLOWN  : Hello!

(?Castanets)

CHORUS  : Laspathia.

(?Castanets)

CLOWN  : Ow! Mistress, help!

CHARITION  : Alemaka.

(?Castanets)

CHORUS  : Alemaka

CLOWN  : For us there is no . . .<text is defective> . . ., by Athena!

CHARITION  : Poor fool, thinking you were hostile they almost shot you.

CLOWN  : Nothing but trouble for me. Do you want me to drive those, too, to the river Psolichus?

CHARITION  : As you wish.

(Drums. A Fart)

CHORUS  : Minei. (Argument)

A GREEK MAN  : Mistress Charition, I see the wind is rising so we can start crossing the Indian Ocean and escape. So, go inside and get your things, and if you can, lift the goddess' offerings, too.

CHARITION  : Think twice, mister! Those seeking safety should not ask it from the gods by robbing their temples. Do you really think they will listen to those pushing for mercy with villainy?

CLOWN  : So, don't touch it! I'll grab it.

A GREEK MAN  : Why don't you just get your own things?

CHARITION  : I don't ask for those things either, but only to see my father's face.

A GREEK MAN  : Why don't you go in? You, serve the food . . . and give them strong wine! They are coming in person!

CLOWN  : What if they don't want to drink it that way?

CHARITION'S BROTHER  : Moron! In places like this, wine is not for sale. It follows that, if they can lay their hands on this type <of wine>, they'll drink it willingly,straight up!

CLOWN  : I'll serve them the dregs, too!

CHARITION'S BROTHER  : There they are, washed with the . . . <text is defective>

(Drums. Quick meter. Drums again, moderate. Drums . . .? osall<..>)

KING  : Brathis.

CHORUS  : Brathis.

CLOWN  : What are they saying?

CHARITION'S BROTHER  : "Let's cast lots for our shares," they say.

CLOWN  : Let's cast lots!

(Drums.)

KING  : Stoukepairomellokoroke.

CLOWN  : Get out, you villain!

KING  : Brathie.

(?Castanets. Drums.)

KING (con't.)  : Bere konzei damun petrekio paktei kortames bere ialero depomenzi petreiko damut kinze paxei zebes lolo bia bradis kottos.

CHORUS  : Kottos.

CLOWN  : May "Kottos" ride you and wear spurs!

KING  : Zopit.

(Drums.)

CLOWN  : What are they saying?

CHARITION'S BROTHER  : Give them something to drink! Hurry!

CLOWN  : Don't want to talk, huh? Good day! Hello!

(?Castanets. Drums.)

KING  : Zeitsoukormosede.

(Drums.)

CLOWN  : Ow! Not if you know what's good for you!

CHARITION'S BROTHER  : It's watery. Throw in some wine.

(Drums, loud.)

BARBARIAN A  : Skalmakatabapteiragoumi.

BARBARIAN B  : Tougoummi. (?Castanets.) Nekelekethro.

BARBARIAN A  : Eitoubelletra choupteragoumi.

CLOWN  : Oh! (?Castanets.) Don't make me sick! Stop! (Drums. ?Castanets.) Oh! (?Castanets.) What are you doing?

BARBARIAN B  : Trachountermana.

BARBARIAN A  : Boullitikaloumbai platagoulda. (?Castanets.) Bi . . .<the text is defective> . . . apuleukasar.

(Drums.)

KING  : Chorbonorbothorba . . . Toumionaxizdespit platagoulda. (?Castanets.) Bi . . . Seosarachis. (Drums.) . . . Orado. (?Castanets.) Satur . . . (Drums.) Ouamesaresumpsaradara. (?Castanets.) Ei. (?Castanets.) Ia. (?Castanets.) Da . . .

CLOWN  : Martha. (?Castanets.) Marithouma edmaimai. (?Castanets.) Maitho . . . Thamouna martha. (?Castanets.) Marithouma. (Drums.) . . . Tun . . .

KING  : Malpiniakouroukoukoubi. (?Castanets. ?Flute.) Karako . . . ra.

CHORUS  : Aba.

KING  : Zabede. (?Castanets. ?Flute.) Zabiligidoumba.

CHORUS : Aba oun . . .

KING  : Panoumbretikatemanouambretououeni.

CHORUS : Panoumbretikatemanouambretououeni. Parakoumbretikatemanouambretououeni. Olusadizapardapiskoupiskateman areiman . . . ridaou. (?Castanets. ?Flute.) Oupatei.a. (?Castanets. ?Flute.)

(Drums five times.)

KING  : I lead the barbarian chorus unending, O Moon-goddess, advancing to the beat with loose barbarian step! Chieftains of Indians, to the holy sound . . . (?Castanets.). . . give . . <the text is defective>. . . . the Seric step so very frenzied . . .<the text is defective> . . . (Drums, loud. Clapping.)

CHORUS  : Orkis . . .

CLOWN  : What are they saying this time?

CHARITION'S BROTHER  : He's telling them to dance.

CLOWN  : They act like real people.

(Drums. A fart.)

CHARITION'S BROTHER  : Pick him up and tie him down with his holy belts.

(Drums, loud. The finale.)

CLOWN  : These men are now heavy with wine.

CHARITION'S BROTHER  : I like it. Hey, Charition, come out here!

CHARITION  : Come, brother! Hurry! Is everything ready?

CHARITION'S BROTHER  : It is. The boat is anchored nearby. Why are you stalling? I'm talking to you, the look-out at the bow! Take the ship and bring it up alongside here! Hurry!

SHIP-CAPTAIN  : But if I give the order first, . . .

CLOWN  : Babbling again, disaster-man? Let's put him overboard to kiss the ships astern.

CHARITION'S BROTHER  : Is everyone on board?

CHORUS  : All aboard!

CHARITION  : Oh, what an unfortunate wretch! A great trembling overwhelms me in all my misery. Be kind to us, Lady! Save your servant!

Its one possible Interpretation in Old Kannada

Here only the words that seems to be in an Indian language is given along with its meaning. Possible errors and needed corrections can be made by anyone.

The words should be read as follows :-
* Word
  Word Split --> OldKannada --> Possible Meaning

• Kraunou.

Krou + nou --> Kareva Nau --> Shall we shoot.

• Lalle.

Lalle --> Lalle --> warning her.

• Laitalianta lalle ab . . . aigm . . .

Lai + tali + anta + lalle + ... --> Eli Tali Antal Lalle --> Lalle asks you to wait.

• Kotakos anab . . . iosara.

Ko + tako + sanab + io + sara --> Ako Tako(Tago) Sanab Iyo Sara --> Take the string of hemp give the arrow.

• Laspathia.

Las + pathia --> L(vs)asapati A --> The buffon! Ah!.

• Alemaka.

Al + emaka --> Alla Emmakka --> No, our sister.

• Psolichus?

Papanashini River.

• Porade.

Po + rade --> Ho Rate --> Start then.

• Minei.

Mi + nei --> Mei Yona --> Shall we take our bath?

• Brathis.

Brath + isu --> Barthi Isu --> Cause to be served in plenty

• Stoukepairomellokoroke.

St + ouke + pairo + mello + korake --> Istu Avage Poyre Mella Karake --> Pour a little into his hand slowly

• Brathie.

Barthi + e --> Barthi I(su) --> Give me the precious drink.

• Bere konzei damun petrekio paktei kortames

Bere + konz + eida + mun + petr + ekio + pak + teikor + tam + es --> Bere Koncha Iyada Munna Betir Ekeyo Bhaga Teko Tamma Isu --> Why did you put down your cup before some more was served ? Take a portion! serve a little brother!

• Bere ialero depomenzi petreiko dam

Bere + ial + erode + pom + enzi + petreiko + dam --> Bere Iyal Irada Ppogum Een(i)Si Betireke(betirak i) Adam --> Thinking there will be no more to be served you must have put down your cups

• ut kinze paxei zebes lolo bia bradis kottos.

Ut + kinze + paxel + zebes + lolo + bia + brad + iskot + tos --> Uta Kenise Apekse Sevisa Lolla Bhaya Birdu Isiko Tusa --> Is your desire for dinner so little? would you not eat or drink? Fear not! Take a little!

• Kottos.

Kot + tos --> Kodu Tusa --> Give a little.

• Zopit.

Z + opit --> Ha Oppit --> Ah! excellent!

• Zeitsoukormosede.

Ze + itsou + kor + mosede --> Ha Ise Kol Mosade --> Ah! Take a deceit!

• Skalmakata bapteiragoumi.

S + kal + makata + bap + teira + goumi --> Isu Kala Magada Papa Tira Gommi --> The sin (of drinking) which you have not committed till now, may be ended this day only.( In other words empty the cup).

• Tougoummi.

Tougo + ummi --> Tego Ommi --> Take once (again).

• Nekelekethro

Nekel + ek + ethro --> Nigal Eke Edro --> why did you get up?

• Eitoubelletra choupteragoumi.

Eitou + belle + trach + oup + tera + goumi --> Eytu Belle Dracca Vappa Tira Gomme --> How pure (white) is the wine. Let it be finished once for all.

• Trachountermana.

Trach + ounter + mana --> Dracca Undare Mana --> It is honour to partake of the (juice of ) grapes.

• Boullitikaloumbai platagoulda. Bi

Bou + llit + i + kalo + umbai + pla + tago + olda --> Bavu Ollittu I Kala Umbay Pala Tago Oldu --> You will be very happy this year. Take a share lovingly.

• Apuleukasar.

A + puleuka + sara --> A Puliyakku Sara --> It will be sour.(Get away).

• Chorbonorbothorba Toumionaxiz despit platagoulda.Bi Seosarachis.Orado Satur Ouamesare sumpsaradara Ei Ia Da

Chorb + o + norba + thorb + ato + um + io + naxiz + des + pit + pla + tago + uldabi + seosa + rachisora + dosa + tur + o + uamesara + sumpsara + dara + eilada --> Corut A Norva Tort Ata Una Iya Noksisi Desa Birta Pala Teko Oldu Sesa Rcksisvldose Tiru O Umesvara Samsara Dara Erya Oda --> One shows boiled rice, another who sees the husk in it, runs away out of the country. Take a share lovingly. sesa. Protect. Show your love lovingly. Oh Umesvara is this the door of samsara.

• Martha Marithouma edmaimai Maitho Thamouna martha. Marithouma. Tun

Martham + arithou + maedm + aimai + m + aithotha + mounam + artham + arithoumatun --> Mardom Orider Mayada Moyame N Aydotta Mouna Artha Aridevemma --> We have found out a medicine. Whereever the greatness of this magic spreads strongly, silence is produced. Lady. we have found out a medicine.

• Malpiniakouroukoukoubi. Karako ra.

Malpi + niakourou + kou + koubi + karakora --> Malpi Naykavara (referring to himself) Ko Koni Karako --> Take Malpe nayaka into the house

• Aba.

Aba!

• Zabede. Zabiligidoumba.

Za + bede + za + biligido + umba --> Ha Beda Ha Billigidu Amba --> Ha Do not do so! He will order you to be shot.

• Aba oun

Aba + oun --> Aba Ovun --> Oh (truely) He will protect you.(If you act according to his wishes).

• Panoumbretikatemanouambretououeni.

Pano + umb + retika + te + mana + uamb + reto + uoueni --> Pana Umba Rettikki De Mana Umba Vetta Avveni --> Oh Lady, how will you aspire for honour unless the drinking people(ourselves) hold you (in) high (esteem)?

• Panoumbretikatemanouambretououeni.

Same as above.

• Parakoumbretikatemanouambretououeni.

Para + koumb + retikate + mano + uambreto + uoueni --> Para Komba Rettikkade Mana Umbaretta Avveni --> Oh Lady, how will you get honour unless those ( who take the other world?) hold you (in) high (esteem)?

• Olusadizapardapiskoupiskateman areiman ridaou. Oupatei.a.

Olusadiza + pardapis + oupis + katemanar + eimanridaou + oupateia --> Olisadiha Paradappisiko Oppisi Kodemmanara Emmanaridu Oppoteya --> You will forfeit the happiness of this and the other world without yielding to the will of the king. (ie, if you do not yield to the will of the king) submit Protect us.(By becoming our queen). Did (do)you understand us? Do you approve? ( or is not to your living).

• Orkis

Ork + is --> Oraga Isu --> Make him lie down.(lest he should fall and hurt himself).

Another version for old kannada

Here instead of splitting, words are taken as is to get different meanings

Word - (meaning).

Kraunou. -(see/look)

Lalle -(there)

Laitalianta-(hi from there) lalle-(there) ab . . . aigm . . .

Kotakosanab -(Lets get them tied up) . . . iosara -(urgent)

Laspathia. -(danger)

Alemaka.-(village boy / good boy)

Minei. -(bathing)

Brathis. -(full)

Stoukepairomellokoroke. -(Pour little slowely)

Bere konzei damun -(he is different) petrekio-(seize/hold) paktei-(from there) kortames-(to be tied in rope)

bere-(other) ialero-(try to Pull) depomenzi-(however) petreiko-(take it hold) damut kinze paxei-(near) zebes

lolo bia-(dont fear) bradis kottos. -(hi tie him tightly)

Zopit.-(carefull).

Zeitsoukormosede.-(this much deceit enough).

Skalmakatabapteiragoumi. -(All mistakes are getting wiped away at once)

Tougoummi.Nekelekethro -(Take this once for drinking/tasting)

Eitoubelletra choupteragoumi. -(this is sweet will the king agree once)

Trachountermana. -(Kings decision)

Boullitikaloumbai -(bring it near) platagoulda.-(take the fruit) Bi . . . . . apuleukasar.-(for me)

Chorbonorbothorba . . . Toumionaxizdespit platagoulda.-(take the fruit) Bi . . . Seosarachis . . . Orado-(move on). Satur-(died) . . . Ouamesaresumpsaradara.-(..ok leader of family) Ei. Ia. Da . . . -(Tell me)

Martha.-(mother) Marithouma-(diety) edmaimai. Maitho . . . Thamouna martha. Marithouma. . . . Tun . . -(prayer for diety)

Malpiniakouroukoukoubi.-(wine given to make us sleep) Karako-(take me) . . . ra.

Aba.-(exclamation)

Zabede.-(dont want) Zabiligidoumba. -(take it near)

Aba oun . . . (he is)

Panoumbretikatemanouambretououeni.-(the mind is moving towards sky)

Panoumbretikatemanouambretououeni.-(the mind is moving towards sky) Parakoumbretikatemanouambretououeni.-(mind moving towards sky lets go)

Olusadizapardapiskoupiskateman areiman -(grave mistake to be accepted and concerned to the dignity and honour). . .

ridaou.-(this) Oupatei.a.-(do you agree)

Orkis . . . ( ake- Take steps or dance) 27.61.15.88 (talk) 04:12, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

problem

Wikipedia article pages are not supposed to refer to Wikipedia talk pages... AnonMoos (talk) 16:43, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I can translate this in serbian better than you in cannada. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.148.205.231 (talk) 06:21, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Passage from the Kannada article

The article Kannada has the following very long paragraph about the play (permalink):

A possibly more definite reference to Kannada is found in the 'Charition Mime' ascribed to the late 4th century BC to early 2nd century AD. The farce, written by an unknown author, is concerned with a Greek lady named Charition who has been stranded on the coast of a country bordering the Indian Ocean. The king of this region, and his countrymen, sometimes use their own language, and the sentences they speak could be interpreted as Kannada, including bere koncha madhu patrakke haki ("Having poured a little wine into the cup separately") and paanam beretti katti madhuvam ber ettuvenu ("Having taken up the cup separately and having covered (it), I shall take wine separately."). The language employed in the papyrus indicates that the play is set in one of the numerous small ports on the western coast of India, between Karwar and Kanhangad (presently in Kerala). D. R. Bhandarkar concludes that Kannada was at least imperfectly understood in that part of Egypt where the farce was composed and acted (Oxyrhynchus or Al-Bahnasa), for if the Greek audience in Egypt did not understand even a bit of Kannada, the scene of the drinking bout would be denuded of all its humour and would be entirely out of place. There were commercial relations of an intimate nature between Egypt and the west coast of India in the early centuries of the Christian era, and it is not strange if some people of Egypt understood Kannada. The papyrus clearly shows that, in the 2nd century AD, Kannada was spoken in Southern India even by princes, who most probably were Dravidian (Kannadiga) by extraction. The character of the king in this farce refers to himself as 'the Nayaka of Malpe (Malpi-naik)'. B. A. Saletore identifies the site of this play as Odabhandeshwara or Vadabhandeshwara (ship-vessel-Ishwara or God), situated about a mile from Malpe, which was a Shaivite centre originally surrounded by a forest with a small river passing through it. He rejects M. Govinda Pai's opinion that it must have occurred at Udyavara (Odora in Greek), the capital of Alupas.

References

There may be some material here that could be of use in future expansion of the article about the play (which is why I'm reproducing it here), but I'm going to remove it from the Kannada article: in its detail it's way beyond the article's scope, and it appears overconfident in the identification of the language with Kannada. Issues with the text include the fact that it's mostly based on a 1919 series of lectures (a lot has been written in the intervening century!), that the quoted passages from the play appear to be the inferred Kannada forms (rather than the originals), and – most significantly – that the views don't seem to represent current scholarly consensus. This is evident from the sources here (Charition mime#Indian language dialogues), and even in some of the papers quoted in the other passage: Tsitsiridis for example (ref #3 above) concludes that the problem of the ‘Indian’ language of Charition cannot be considered solved (fn. 47 on p. 202 of [1]). – Uanfala (talk) 16:29, 26 November 2022 (UTC)