Talk:Character changes during Infinite Crisis/Archive 1

Archive 1

This archive page covers approximately the dates between February 2006 and April 2006.

Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.

Please add new archivals to Talk:Character changes during Infinite Crisis/Archive02. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 11:19, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Nightwing

I have removed the nightwing entry - even if it's true (which I doubt), it does not occur in Infinite crisis. --Charlesknight 23:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Batman Annual #25 will probably count as an Infinite Crisis tie-in, depending on why Jason Todd (or whoever he is) is alive, but nobody has read the thing. It won't be available until March. And no, there's no way that's true. Period. Wryspy 04:00, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

It has been confirmed by Joan Hilty, the editor of the The Outsiders, that Dick Grayson will be the Nightwing in The Outsiders. user:driscolj 3:07 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Something interesting I noticed in the deleted entry is a hyphen in the middle of the name that was written (Night-Wing instead of Nightwing). Maybe they were referring to Nite-Wing? user:driscolj 4:39 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Dead Metal Men?

If you look at IC3, Alex is watching a screen and it appears than Iron of the Metalmen has been ripped to pieces?

The Metal Men are robots; not only they can't really be killed, but they got torn apart very frequently in their original adventures, only to be quickly repaired; it was some type of an in-joke. Wilfredo Martinez 14:07, 10

February 2006 (UTC)

True but in current continuity they are actually people who are stuck in robot bodies that CAN be killed (they have an object called a responsometer inside them, that if destroyed would mean they are died). Unless that revelation has been wiped from history? --Charlesknight 17:12, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Most DC writers have been ignoring that revelation. Plus, even if it's kept, repeated destruction/repair is nevertheless an established part of their history.Wryspy 20:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Amethyst and Rumors

When was Amethyst confirmed alive? There are so many rumors rampant that someone making that assertion should consider mentioning their source, at least here on the discussion page, until the information gets more widely disseminated.

• Actually, if we don't want to crowd the article with citations, the place to note your source would be in your edit summary, like Lokicarbis did when removing Risk. (According to one contributor, Amethyst was confirmed alive in the DoV Special.) Wryspy 05:36, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Expanded Scope

I'm wondering if, now that we don't have to worry about the size issue so much, the scope of this article shouldn't be widened to include characters who were either de-powered or powered up as a result of events in Crisis or its leadups. What do people think? Lokicarbis 04:11, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I personally think that would be excessive. And the "Changed heroes" section kinda covers some of that stuff. --Ace ETP 03:05, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Donna Troy

Donna died in "Graduation Day" and was revealed, in the epilogue of that story, to have been reborn elsewhere. True, we didn't see her again until the miniseries, but that was always a matter of when. I think that, as with the Jason Todd entry, listing both stories is valid. Lokicarbis 13:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Then, yep, that's true.

Lady Shiva

First, I have trouble seeing how a character left near a Lazarus Pit could ever count as being presumed dead. Nonetheless, I didn't read that comic, so I'm not going to tread on what someone else wrote. However, I must ask: Was that issue of Batgirl reallly an Infinite Crisis tie-in? Wryspy 18:47, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

No, so I just took her out altogether. --Rocketgoat 06:21, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Now she's 'Jade Dragon', should that go in under Aftermath? It's (probably) a OYL thang. -- Ipstenu 16:37, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I would leave that out. OYL is not IC, nor is there anything so far to suggest that the events of Infinite Crisis were the impetus for her change. --Rocketgoat 19:18, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

As of Birds of Prey's April release, Yes, Shiva's change is a result of a OYL deal, changing places with Black Canary.ThuranX 01:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Cheetah I

Sorry if I messed anything up its only my second time submiting anything.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the first Cheetah die at the hands of the current Cheetah in Wonder Woman a few issues back? It was around the time of Wonder Woman's trial. I don't remember what issue it was off the top of my head but I'll post what issue it was later if someone doesn't beat me to it. --DyslexicDan 20 February 2006

Flash #219. It eventually ties onto Villains United, so I'll just add her. ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 04:51, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Alex's earliest appearance

What's the earliest we know Alexander Luthor was posing as Lex? If we accept Countdown to Infinite Crisis on the basis of the blue eyes, we also have to accept the earlier Teen Titans #20 (according to a contributor who described that Johns story and said the Luthor in it had blue eyes).

Aside from the blue eyes thing, which might be irrelevant, why do you think it was Alex in Countdown?Travislangley 06:30, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I highly doubt that by Countdown they hadn't decided who would have what color eyes. Either way, the Wizard Shazam warns Blue Beetle that Lex Luthor is mixed up in all the magic hubbub that's going down. Normal Luthor had nothing to do with magic, so Alex fits. --Rocketgoat 06:34, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

It's common sense. The Luthor in Teen Titans #20 is obsessing over Connor, calling him "my boy". (And you can't see his pupils.) The Luthor in Countdown is heading the Society founders.

And they didn't "decide" on who would have what color eyes. Lex's was established in Bryne's Man of Steel and Alex's eyes were blue from the moment of his creation in Crisis on Infinite Earths. ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 04:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Eye color is just plain inconsistent in comics depending on what any given colorist uses. I remember a Spider-Man letters column where they debated Peter's eye color because of that. We can't look for every use of green or blue eyes for a given character. Both Lex and Alex have been depicted with blue eyes in the past. So, prior to when the lead-up stories began, we can't use blue eyes as exclusionary evidence. Apostrophe is correct about Lex's post-Crisis eyes. Unfortunately, what that really illustrates is DC's foolishness in deciding the two Lexes should have differently colored eyes. Doczilla 18:15, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Uncle Sam

Apperently, there's solicits for a new Uncle Sam and the Freedom Fighers title. Since this means Uncle Sam is coming back, someone want to make some adjustments, or what? DoctorWorm7 03:16, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be a mistake to automatically assume the Uncle Sam that comes back is the same one as the one that died. --Rocketgoat 05:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, again, the April issue of Wizard, with its extensive Crisis and 52 coverage, made mention of Uncle Sam being the only surviving member of the Freedom Fighters (save the Ray, of course) and having to recruit a new team. 129.120.169.132 02:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

BUT Wizard gets some things wrong, they have been known to help the comic companies mislead readers (e.g., the original Sentry hoax), and the comic companies' decisions may change before stories see print (e.g., there was originally going to be an Amazons comic along with Day of Vengeance, etc.), so until Sam returns within the canon, we need to continue listing him as missing because, for now, he really is missing. Wryspy 16:01, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Pariah

I'm not going to get into an editing war. I feel that if Pariah has not been confirmed dead in the comics, he has not been confirmed dead. As strange as this sounds, it does not matter what the writer intended. DC can decide to allow anything they like. Other writers can choose to act on the fact that comics never confirmed the death. He is PRESUMED dead but unconfirmed, exactly as the heading says, and therefore does not belong among the confirmed dead. Wryspy 19:57, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

What silly logic. He was shot at point-blank range. (What does it take for you to consider comic book characters to be dead?) Geoff Johns then made it clear that his immortality doesn't work anymore, and that he's dead, dead, and dead. The fact that other writers might reverse this means precisely nothing; a writer could easily alter Pantha so that she could survive having her head knocked off. Doesn't change the fact that she's currently considered to be dead. ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 23:38, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

People get shot at point-blank range and survive. In real life, people survive getting shot at point-blank range. It's not a good thing, but it happens. Pariah has still shown powers of some kind post-Crisis. What Johns said in an interview is not what anyone has said within the official canon. You are PRESUMING he's dead, and for good reason. I'm not saying he's alive. I don't give a damn. I'm saying he's listed in the wrong column. His death has not been confirmed in the comics. Wryspy 20:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Even if he were confirmed dead (which he's not), he's still in the wrong column because that happened during the lead-up, not during Infinite Crisis. Wryspy 20:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

What about the fact that sometimes the creators simply lie to avoid divulging things that haven't been published yet? At one point, to keep the purpose of Infinite Crisis a mystery, DC people said it would have nothing to do with Crisis on Infinite Earths. I think we all know how true that didn't turn out to be. Doczilla 18:11, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

In the April Issue of Wizard Magazine, Geoff Johns confirmed Pariah's death: "Pariah is dead, by the way. He couldn't be killed in the first Crisis because there were multiple Earths, but without them his power disappeared." Cybertooth85 16:40, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Again, so what? The comics creators say all kinds of things in interviews. They said Barry Allen would not return during Infinite Crisis, but he has, regardless of whether we count #5 or only #4 for that. Within the comics, Pariah's death is presumed but unconfirmed. Wryspy [1] Wait a minute, I just noticed some tricky wording: They stressed that Barry Allen, Ted Kord, Maxwell Lord, and Sue Dibny would not return after IC. They didn't say the characters couldn't return during IC.

I'll just add here what Wryspy alluded to earlier, but make it explicit. Pariah was most definitely still immortal in War of the Gods. Make of it what you will....--G.B. Blackrock 17:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Wryspy, by your 'writers can do anything in the comics, this entire page is inaccurate, and thus needs to be submitted to AfD. Pariah is dead. The writers have confirmed it. As to the 'tricky wording', the only one with any possibility of return is Sue Dibny, given the unresolved nature of her conflict with Ray Palmer. Otherwise, let's assume the writers are being straightforward and that Pariah is dead. Of course he could come back with the reemergence of Hypertime, or a shattering of the univers when superboy (inevitably) breaks out of the heart of the SunEater, but let's leave that update for when it happens?ThuranX 01:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Two minor issues

1 - Martin Stein merging with Jason Rusch to help him become a better Firestorm is apparently a temporary change (as it would be derivative of the Ronnie Raymond version of Firestorm). Jason Rusch's Firestorm Matrix apparently still works as it did when he was merged with Mick Wong: he needs another person to transform into Firestorm, but it doesn't need to be Stein. His "Matrix partner" One Year Later will apparently be Firehawk. Should we remove Jason Rusch from the "Changed heroes list" or modify it to include something to the effect of "Jason Rusch/Firehawk version of Firestorm (debut pending)"?

2 - I'd also like to know what is everyone's opinion on listing deaths and returns from 52 on this page? --Ace ETP 03:05, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Martin Stein's link is still an active issue in Forestorm at the OYL point. I concur that adding the Firehawk change is worthwhile, esp. in light of the one mile or burst limitation that Jason suffers.ThuranX 01:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

52 has its own page - surely it would make more sense to list them there? Lokicarbis 03:55, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I changed the Firestorm entry to say "Jason Rusch and Professor Martin Stein designed a revamped Firestorm together (Firestorm #22)". I think this works better, since you're right. --Rocketgoat 05:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Listing deaths and returns from 52 on its own page might make more sense than listing them here...but since the time jump to "One Year Later" (and therefore, the events of 52) will happen between issues 5 and 6 of Infinite Crisis rather than between the end of Infinite Crisis and the beggining of all One Year Later story arcs, aren't the events of 52 technically consequences of Infinite Crisis? This is supported by the fact that the cover for the first issue of 52 seems to indicate that Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman have left in some sort of way, while the cover for Infinite Crisis #7 seems to indicate that they have returned. Plus, do we really need two different pages for listing consequences of events which are inevitably tied into each other? --Ace ETP 20:31, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

No, this is not the place to list deaths and changes associated with 52. Listing 52 here would be like saying everything that ever happens in DC comics from now on must be listed here. At the end of #7, this page should lock up. Wryspy 20:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

(Added for clarity - The 'time jump to "One Year Later" (and therefore, the events of 52)' refers to release dates of said issues, not to continuity.)ThuranX 01:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, the jump to one year ahead seems to be affecting every DC title except Crisis (and a couple of spin-offs). I think we should be including material about the spinoffs here, but that's about all. Also, Wryspy, hate to disagree, but this page shouldn't lock at the end of #7 - sooner or later, there will be reprint details to add :) Lokicarbis 01:01, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't reprint details appear in the main Infinite Crisis article rather than here? Also, we might help settle the issue of what should be counted as "Consequences of Infinite Crisis" if at the end of the series, we change the name of this article to something like "Immediate Consequences of Infinite Crisis". Long-term consequences will go on forever. If someone wants a long-term consequences article, that's up to them, but the historic record of the immediate impact would become lost if we include all of that information in the same article. Wouldn't it? Wryspy 16:23, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

It's true that we shouldn't go overboard in listing events. But by suggesting we list events and returns from 52 here I'm in no way saying that this page should become some sort of repository of knowledge of the Post-Infinite-Crisis DCU. I'm merely saying that since events depicted in 52 will chronologically happen between two issues of Infinite Crisis, wouldn't anyone who dies or returns within the pages of 52 be said by the heroes of the DCU to have died or returned during "that long Crisis with the alternate Earths in the sky and the Superboy who liked to decapitate people"? Don't you think that that makes them deserve a place in this page? Why is it that if someone dies in the penultimate or final issue of Infinite Crisis, they will be added to this list, but if they die within a series illustrating events in between, they won't? If DC later decides to publish a daily comic called 365, and we see in an issue that during unseen event between IC #6 and IC #7 the Inferior Five were accidentally stepped on and crushed to death by Giganta, won't we have to go back and add them to the list of deaths? --Ace ETP 03:10, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I think we can all see that your example is pretty exaggerated. Besides, 52 is telling the 52 weeks after Infinite Crisis, not filling in events that occurred during it. In my opinion, only events from the titles that are labeled as "Infinite Crisis Tie-In" should be considered on this page, that's why I've taken off entries for Black Mask, Speedy and others. Sure, they died while Infinite Crisis was going on, but it wasn't necessarily related. --Rocketgoat 03:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Are you completely sure the year of events 52 will fill us in happen after Infinite Crisis rather than during between two issues of it? I'm sure I remember some solicitations and interviews indicating otherwise. Plus, as I've pointed out before, Batman, Wonder Woman and Superman are "missing" in 52, and "returning" in the One Year Later titles, with the cover for the seventh issue of Infinite Crisis seemingly indicating their return will be featured within its pages. Doesn't this make Infinite Crisis #7 the first OYL issue of a DC comic? --Ace ETP 06:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The only cover I've seen for IC #7 is the one with three broken shards of glass, each with a hero's insignia on it. That cover would suggest to me that the three heroes are not returning, but rather drifting away. As far as I understand it, IC is going to stay chronologically in the same year it has always been, while OYL books jump ahead. The last page of IC #5 certainly lends a sense of immediacy to the coming issues, so I don't see them jumping ahead a year for issues #6 and #7. Further, Batman and Robin returned in the first OYL issue of Detective, so it stands to reason that Superman and Wonder Woman will follow suit. --Rocketgoat 20:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Post-Infinite-Crisis fate of this page

We seem to have agreed that we this article should lock up after Infinite Crisis #7 is published, but I'm sure problems regarding this page will continue after that. For example, if the Uncle Sam that to be featured in the Freedom Fighters Crisis Aftermath series ends up being the one we have listed as presumed dead and reported missing, there most likely will be some people trying to remove him from this page, which I think would not only be incorrect, but misleading and against convention. Here are my reasons: the list of casualties in the Crisis On Infinite Earths page still has Supergirl, the Crime Syndicate and Angle Man, although they were all later retconned back into existence. And the list of casualtines in the Our Worlds At War page has Aquaman, Steel and Guy Gardner, although they all either returned from the dead or were retconned as only having been critically injured. So, despite all those later changes, the deaths of those characters were still consequences of those series, and that's why they are listed. Following that logic, there's a reason why even if every single character who has died or gone missing during Infinite Crisis is resurrected or comes back in the first comic book published after its conclusion, they should all remain on this page. Otherwise, someone picking up the absolute edition trade paperback two years from now will find this page lacking in information, as it won't list several characters who were changed while it lasted. In a nutshell, characters being changed back after the end of Infinite Crisis shouldn't be relevant. We could additional information for any character changes being reversed, but we shouldn't remove any character listed so far. Does everyone agree? --Ace ETP 19:01, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree. After all, that's why we seem to have settled on the article title, "Character changes during Infinite Crisis". These changes will always be part of the overall story even if they get undone or revised later on. Supergirl died during the original Crisis, regardless of what came later. Characters still missing by the end of #7 will forever have been missing DURING IC. Wryspy 00:36, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Brief Death Descriptions

I had originally put in brief details of deaths for the relevant entries which was promptly reverted on the basis that "details on particular deaths can be found on that character's individual page". I feel it would be useful to put in small blurbs describing each character death. I don't consider it especially redundant and, frankly, it would make this article more complete.

Yeah, but we already had small blurbs for everyone. It just cluttered up the page, so I'm of the opinion that the information is better left on character pages, which are all conveniently linked. --Rocketgoat 03:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm with Rocketgoat. For the purposes of this article, such blurbs would add nothing but something to edit and argue about. Anybody who cares about the details can follow the links to specific characters' individual articles. Wryspy 04:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Blurbs? How about just a word or two? Not all those "links to specific chaters' individual articles" lead anywhere. Doczilla 06:49, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Then that's a problem with that character's page, not this one. If you want to add details to a character's death, do it on their page. If they don't have one, make it. --Rocketgoat 18:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Missing/Not Missing

I agree that that a lot of the characters added to the Missing List because of IC#6 have been done so prematurely. There is not enough information to support this claim, only that "Ion" does not know where they are. The scenes at the beginning of Teen Titans #34 are not conclusive either, appearing to be a record of Cyborg's memories of the past year in sequential order, allowing for the theory that they occurred immediately after the scene in IC#6. CovenantD 18:38, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I still changed the comment after the names of the people in Donna Troy's crew from "debatable" back to "disappeared", as there is essentially nothing which is debatable about their status (unlike say, that of Captain Nazi). Though I initially opossed listing them, I've realized we're only stating that their dissapearance is a fact (and therefore not debatable), not that their death is a fact (which would be debatable, because despite some characters such Starfire still being missing in One Year Later issues, 90% of the New Cronus crew either appear or are inferred to in One Year Later issues, or are expected to appear in 52). --Ace ETP 19:53, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I totally disagree with changing it from debatable. I've read enough comments to know how debated the IC#6 characters are. I think their appearance or mention OYL is enough to throw doubt that they've in fact "disappeared." CovenantD 20:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

There are two notes on that main page that should be considered: "These characters either went missing or were implied to be dead during Infinite Crisis and lead-up storylines" and "Do not remove characters in case of return in the pages of "52", "One Year Later" or other Post-Infinite-Crisis comic books, as they will still be recorded as having gone missing." Every character listed there from Infinite Crisis #6 is either missing or implied to be dead. Further, the reappearance of any of those characters in 52 or One Year Later books does not negate the fact that they still belong on the list. As for their status as "disappeared" or "debatable", I would say that they should be listed as "disappeared". This indicates to the reader that they aren't necessarily presumed dead, since many of the characters are known to survive the ordeal, but they are certainly missing for an amount of time. The debate users here are having isn't over whether they disappeared or not so much as it is over whether they should be listed since they return. --Rocketgoat 21:05, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Their status is being debated right now, right here, and in the Editing War that was going on days before this discussion started.CovenantD 22:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Hopefully the note about the facts under Missing being in dispute should suffice for now. Obviously those disappearances are debatable, or else we wouldn't be debating them. Wryspy 01:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Wryspy brought up a good point (in a discussion on our talk pages) that for the IC #6 disappeared, it would be helpful to list any confirmation that they'd been missing. Starfire and Hawkgirl definitely were, as confirmed in Teen Titans #34 and Infinite Crisis #6, respectively. TT #34 also mentions Firestorm, Bumblebee, and Herald, but doesn't mention if they went missing. The only other thing confirmed there is that Herald was severely injured. --Rocketgoat 01:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Unconfirmed Deaths

To say "debatable" on every unconfirmed death renders the word meaningless. I removed the word but restored the previous "arguable given his invulnerability" remark on Captain Nazi for story reasons: Jason said he'd killed the old Nazi. However, given the character's powers and history, a taser to the eyes probably cannot kill him. So a character called him dead, but that character is probably wrong. It's not like Jason had a chance to check the guy's pulse. I removed the immortal notation (which had been my own note, by the way) regarding the Royal Flush Gang's king. If their deaths are unconfirmed, why bother with the additional blurb? (There were a lot of blurbs back when I first wrote that.) Only if someone in the comics reported them dead would his death become arguable based on his immortality. Because he has not been reported dead, his death remains simply unconfirmed and nothing to argue about. People might argue about whether Captain Nazi's death was or wasn't confirmed. Wryspy 00:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

A further kink: Captain Nazi appears in Khandaq in Villains United Infinite Crisis Special to face down Black Adam. Adam uses his thunderbolt to win the fight, but other than being unconscious, whether or not the Captain is dead, is not revealed. So, he survived the encounter with Red Hood, but then he was lightning-bolted by Black Adam. Cybertooth85 21:30, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Returns

Does anyone know if Bizarro Hawkman, Bizarro Wonder Woman or Bizarro Martian Manhunter made an appearance pre-Crisis? --Hemlock Martinis 20:03, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Bizarro Hawkman [2] and Bizarro Wonder Woman [3]: Absolutely. I don't remember a Bizarro M.M. though. I wish they'd thrown in Bizarro Green Lantern a.k.a. Yellow Lantern. He always amused me. His power ring worked for the first 24 hours, then never again. Wryspy 21:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

• While we're on the subject, Wrispy, why do you consider most of the information I listed my compressed version of the IC #6 cameos list "inaccurate"? Not ALL of those characters have appeared in recent years. Unless you consider the Tangent Comics characters recent, when in fact they were last seen circa 1998, with their whole continuity being discarded. If we can't consider 1998 long ago enough to list them, then we should remove most characters from the Returns list, for example: Donna Troy. She had only been killed two years before IC and we have her...despite the fact that the epilogue of the issue in which she was killed showed her resurrection. Out of the seven alternate Earths which appear in the scene with all the cameos, there are four Earths whose characters undeniably deserve a place on the list (the Tangent Comics world, the world of the Cathy Lee Crosby Wonder Woman and the Debra Winger Wonder Girl, the world of the Super-Sons, and the Bizarro world) and three Earths whose place in the list might be debatable: the Fawcett comics world, the Post-Zero Hour Legion world, and the Western heroes world. But I'd still say the former two deserve their place. With Bulletgirl and Ibis the Invincible being dead, and that talking tiger being out of continuity, I believe the Fawcett City heroes should be included, even if we still see the Marvels. I mean, the only other Fawcett character we still besides them is Spy Smasher, but he hasn't appeared in his superhero attire like he does in IC #6 for years. Furthermore, we haven't seen the Post-Zero Hour Legion in over three years, and their continuity being discarded with the Legion reboot is as much a death as that suffered by the Earths which perished in the original Crisis was. I would only agree to not list the Western heroes (unless we want to be extreme completists, as the establishment of an Earth solely for them was a screw-up, as all had been established as living on Earth-One Pre-Crisis). --Ace ETP 23:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

You're right that two years was a short absence. Donna's return was from death, not a long absence. Spy Smasher's costume is not a reason to list him. The TV characters have never appeared in comics, so they can't return to comics. Legion: "Over three years" is not a long absence. And you're right about that talking tiger. I don't have the comic in front of me, but if he appears in that panel, he needs to be listed! Wryspy 15:32, 28 April 2006 (UTC) P.S. On the Tangent characters: Heck, I don't know. 1998 doesn't seem that long ago to me, but I realize it's half of some other posters' lives. So far, that list of cameos is only characters which haven't been seen since before Crisis on Infinite Earths.Wryspy 15:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I added some comments about the myriad of alternate continuites which appear without mentioning their specific characters or listing them among the ones who haven't appeared since before the original Crisis. Compromise reached. --Ace ETP 02:29, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Suggesting "turned up" comments for Missing characters

We've all agreed that if characters who are either missing or presumed dead turn up, we'll continue to list them as they will still be recorded as having gone missing or presumably dying during Infinite Crisis. However, we clearly can't agree if the members of Donna Troy's are missing or not, so I suggest the following: if the characters turn up, we should add a note reading "turned up" followed by the name and number of the issue in which they did, right next to the note reading what comic did they dissapear in. Bear with me for just a moment for reasons as to why, please. 1 - The members of Donna Troy's crew are (except for Hawkman, Kilowog and Kyle Rayner, who are apparenly still with us): Adam Strange, Animal Man, Bumblebee, Captain Comet, Cyborg, Donna Troy, Firestorm, Alan Scott, Guy Gardner, Hawkgirl, Herald, Red Tornado, Shift, Starfire and Supergirl. Out of these, Bumblebee, Cyborg, Firestorm, Alan Scott, Guy Gardner, Hawkgirl, Herald and Supergirl all have appeared alive and well on OYL books, with no indication whatsoever that they went missing during IC (unlike other characters like Superman or Aquaman), although it is apparent they faced some major problems in outer space. 2 - Adam Strange and Animal Man have been mentioned by Keith Giffen as the most important characters in 52 other than the 6 leads. With 52 being set immediately after IC (pages from the first issue show Steel talking to a policeman among the wreckage in Metropolis), it seems very improbable that were suppossed to interpret that they have really gone missing, and much more likely that we have been simply lead to believe so because of ambigous dialogue and art in the dissapearance scene. 3 - And finally, we have no idea what's the current condition of Captain Comet, Donna Troy, Red Tornado and Shift, but I get the feeling that had something happened to them, they would have been inferred to, much like Starfire (our poor only character actually confirmed as having gone missing) was. Hopefully, most of Donna's crew will appear in IC #7, and we can it end this debate, but for the time being, would there be any harm in adding a "turned up Hawkgirl #50" for Hawkgirl, a "turned up "Superman #650" for Supergirl, etc.? Think about it, please. Someone not knowing a lot about the topic, or a person not reading all tie-ins and not aware of everything going on across all issues could believe we are listing erroneous information because of seeing there's a new Hawkgirl title out there. --Ace ETP 23:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I like your idea. It makes complete sense to me. Unfortunately, I'm wary that the people who kept insisting on listing those characters in the first place probably won't go for it. If they're missing at the end of IC#7, they're missing at the end of the story even if we know they return later.

Anybody who read Hawkgirl #50 knows she hasn't been missing for a year and Hawkman has, but maybe she doesn't return and he doesn't disappear until an early issue of 52. Again, I'm playing devil's advocate, anticipating the fuss other people might start. I didn't think she should be listed in the first place. We could have waited until next month. For all we know, those people spun behind a big rock, or maybe they're wondering where Ion, etc., are, so from their point of view, Ion and the rest are the ones who are missing. Characters saying, "Hey, where are they?" hardly makes someone missing. Anyway, now I'm just rambling. I accepted the "debatable" compromise. Obviously it's debatable. People were debating it. Wryspy 15:49, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

And there's no reason to believe that Infinite Crisis is even really happening, because maybe it's all a dream in the head of Krypto the Superdog. As it stands, the narrative implies those characters are missing and it's pretty ridiculous to argue otherwise. --Rocketgoat 15:55, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The narrative implies that the deep space characters are no longer visible to the ones left behind. Nothing more, nothing less. CovenantD 16:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Taking Infinite Crisis #6 alone, this is true. We know that Cyborg and Starfire went missing and it was heavily implied that other characters did too in Teen Titans, so logic would lead us to believe that Donna Troy's crew all disappeared. It's just a matter of how long it took them each to get back. --Rocketgoat 16:19, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

How do we know that Cyborg "went missing?" We don't. It's all a matter of interpretation, not logic. Starfire is the only one comfirmed not to have returned. Until IC #7 comes out we won't know what happened to the others at all and it's jumping the gun to declare they've disappeared. CovenantD 16:49, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The problem here is that Supergirl didn't "turn up" in Superman #650. Neither did Hawkgirl "turn up" in Harkgirl #50. If and when they turn up, it will be in 52 or described in OYL books. The reason most of these characters haven't been referenced as missing is probably because they didn't want to spoil that they all go missing before Infinite Crisis revealed they did in the first place. Plus, we specifically state on the page that it's concerned with the changes to characters during Infinite Crisis, not after. Not listing when characters return is similar to not listing any characters that have come back to life since being killed in IC. Also similar, we list the combination of Jason Rusch and Martin Stein in a new Firestorm as a new or changed hero, when everyone following Firestorm OYL knows that isn't true any more. Someone not knowing a lot about the topic or a person not reading all the tie-ins should be able to tell from reading this page and the pages for One Year Later and Infinite Crisis that the chronology is wonky. --Rocketgoat 15:55, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

And this is exactly why that section is identified as having facts in dispute and the disappearances are labeled "debatable" -- we're debating it, aren't we? Yep. Wryspy 19:49, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Hawkgirl #50, etc., are not the places where those characters "turn up." The wording could be better, but the point was good: Those issues do confirm that the characters don't stay missing (if they ever were) -- not that I want to beat that dead horse. I'm the one who first said we shouldn't use that notation anyway because exactly this kind of debate would ensue anyway.Wryspy 19:52, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Telling people that to disagree with you is "ridiculous to argue otherwise" does not help you present an adult-sounding case.

You're right. It's not ridiculous at all that those characters could all be "behind a big rock". I retract my statements and offer an apology. --Rocketgoat 20:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Please, let's not fight. There's no need. If we let it escalate into something big, perhaps a certain red-headed grown man in a golden armor and a teenager in a Superman Halloween costume will resolve they need to do away with our Earth for the sake of finding a perfect one. On a side note, I almost erased the "debatable" tidbit from some characters when I saw several of them are listed as "Missing or Unavailable" in Barbara Gordon's computer in a panel of the Villains United Special, but then I refrained from doing so, because I noticed her list included the likes of Captain Atom (currently in the Wildstorm Universe) and Jesse Quick (currently depowered), so the "Missing or Unavailable" could imply they aren't around to help battle the Society in Metropolis simply because of not being on Earth. This is likely, as she also lists characters who we know are not only perfectly fine, but will fight Superboy-Prime in outer space (such as Power Girl, or "all Earth-based Green Lanterns"), if Jim Lee's cover for IC #7 is any evidence. She also inexpicably lists Batman, who appears in the Perez cover fighting the Society in Metropolis. God, how I hope Donna Troy's crew appears in IC #7 and we can end this. --Ace ETP 02:29, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

It's not inexplicable that Barbara lists Batman. All that means is that she lost track of him. Obviously she needs to read these comics so she can know everything we know. ;) Wryspy 18:10, 1 May 2006 (UTC) P.S. Despite sometimes excited disagreements, I have really been impressed with the quality of contributions made by the main people editing these Infinite Crisis pages and everyone's interest in stepping back and trying to find ways to defuse disagreements, working toward compromises on the points where we clearly aren't going to see things the same way. When you look at what sprawling messes some Wikipedia pages are, it's nice to see consistent efforts to keep these pages encyclopedic yet still fun. Wryspy 18:15, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I have been pleasantly surprised as well despite some minor frustration. --Ace ETP 23:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Continuity Changes

Should there be a section or separate article for continuity changes (Wonder Woman un-retconned back into JLA charter membership, Superman had Smallville adventures, Joe Chill arrested for Wayne murder), or maybe a separate article about them? After all, those continuity changes may ultimately be the biggest influences this story has on DC history. It's just a thought. Wryspy 21:48, 7 May 2006 (UTC) P.S. I'd prefer just a brief checklist myself, not a whole other article.

A short blurb in this article, under Aftermath, perhaps? And then a subsection Continuity changes after Infinite Crisis with the short checklist. -- Ipstenu 23:06, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Since this page is "character changes", it seems that sort of thing would be more appropriate in the normal IC page. In my opinion, this page should be just for character changes so as to avoid a long list of deaths and such on the main page, but the direct in-story effects of Infinite Crisis should go on the Infinite Crisis page. --Rocketgoat 22:50, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Need for citation

If you add or remove big chunks of information, make sure it's cited relative to IC. Do not remove everyone who has since IC shown up. This is for Infinite Crisis, not for redacting based on everything after IC. If that was the point, in five years, we could delete 95% of this, except for 'IC was a comics crossover, and Barry Allen is still dead.' But this isn't the way this article is to be handled. Major Disaster, for example, had his head rotated 180 with a snapping sound effect, then lays limp. Presuming death from a broken neck is reasonable, and until proved otherwise within the context of IC, leave it up, as well as all the other edits. Thank you, especially 69.177.182.182. ThuranX 00:01, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Themyscira

The Amazons and the Greek pantheon left for another dimension, and parts unknown. That's 'missing' for all intents and purposes. Wonder Woman doesn't know where they went, Donna Troy doesn't know, Wonder Girl doesn't know, and last I checked, netierh did the reader beyond 'absenting themselves from the world'. That's missing, and a result of the Infinite Crisis. Unless something directly contradicting that, and showing that someone significant still on the DC Earth, or elsewhere in the DC Universe, excluding the absented dieties and amazons themselves, know where said characters are, that's MISSING. I'm putting it back.ThuranX 19:21, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

We have gone half a year without listing them as missing. Several writers keep removing them from the list. One person keeps relisting them. That does not sound like a consensus to include them. Voluntarily absenting themselves from this universe seems to fall outside the range of what people mean by missing in action because we and the other characters KNOW they aren't dead. As of the end of IC #7, those other missing characters could be dead as far as the other characters know.

To be fair, I understand your logic even if your insistent approach is off-putting. After this many months without listing the Amazons, we need to let other contributors offer their thoughts on this before getting into an editing war over the wording of it. If that many people disagree with you, there's a problem, and you should perhaps consider a compromise like we did with last month's "debatable" absences or the Tangent, etc. listings.Wryspy 19:26, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the gods: There are a LOT of other gods. Wryspy 20:12, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Regarding 'off-putting'. I checked back a ways in the edits, and didn't find Themyscira, nor evidence that it had been repeatedly removed already. Further, since your'e the only one removing my additions thereof, I don't see a situation where there's evident consensus, it sounds like you doing something i've seen you doing an amazing amount of here, which is lurking on this page and keeping it 'your' way. I'm willing to listen to other editors, but haven't seen many yet on this issue. Further, if voluntarily absenting oneself is not a condition for listing, then we should remove any refferences to Wally West, who voluntarily went into the speed force with his family, we should remove bart allen for voluntarily fighting superboy-prime and getting shunted forward in age, and so on. Volunteerism doesn't negate current status. If it did, then the entire page would be moot, as heroes choose such a life 90%+ of the time. The dieties absented themselves due to fallout from Wonder Woman's actions, and from fallout from and in anticipation of the day of vengeance events with the spectre going nuts, and magic fading out. Net result is still, gods gone, who knows where they went? No one but them. The Amazons are pretty much the same, leaving due in part ot the fallout from Diana killing Maxwell Lord.

One of the big problems with comics plots on wiki is that often we see conflicts with the 'do no original research' imperative. Comics leave a certain amount to the reader to infer, and wiki requires cconsensus for those situations. When fannish editors get too attached to a character, story of idea in comics, there's resistance to recordign the facts seen accurately on wiki. The wonder woman pages were clear. 'we're leaving cause man's world's about to get all up in our grill!' to paraphrase. Thoseactions directly connect to IC, and in fact, some happened IN IC#3. that's the connection, they're gone, no one knows where. thoughts? ThuranX 21:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Currently, the Missing section says "These characters disappeared or went missing during Infinite Crisis and lead-up storylines." That definitely means the Greek gods that disappeared should be listed. To leave them out would be a major omission, as they were important parts to the Wonder Woman mythology and book. --Rocketgoat 22:56, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Rocketgoat. Being a deity or powered by a deity and being able to travel pretty much anywhere regarding planes of existance does not take away from the fact of being a character in a narrative, specifically, it does not take away from being a character who has changed. That's the reason why when I thought we should list the Amazons and Greek deities, it should go on "New Or Changed" rather than Missing, as they know were they are despite everyone else being clueless, and have gone away after deciding it for themselves, much like the Big Three and unlike anyone who hasn't been seen since some accident. If they are to remain in the page, can we bring them back to New or Changed?. Also, I have a question, why is that we allow Judomaster and Risk to be listed in there because of their being now almost completely disabled, but the same does not apply to Damage? Perry White mentions he is in critical condition at Metropolis General Hospital. With the way the kind of powers he has were reacting to Zoom's super-speed punches, I think we were supposed to interpret he was left in a similar state than that which killed the Human Bomb. --Ace ETP 23:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

"Critical condition" isn't the loss of a body part. Wryspy 15:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Now that you mention it, New or Changed does make sense. Per your Damage question, I think it boils down to what is definitely permanent damage or not. Having a broken back or an arm torn off is something that will stay with you forever (unless you're Batman). Damage is in critical condition, but until the canon states that he has severe permanent brain damage or will be in a coma for the foreseeable future, there's no reason to expect he won't get out of it. If he dies, he should go on the page. If he lives with permanent injury, he should go on the page. If he lives, he should not go on the page. Right now it's a Schrödinger's cat deal ... we haven't seen what his status is, so there's no way we can put him on the page either way. --Rocketgoat 15:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the Idea of editing the departure of the pantheon(s?), I'm good with 'new or changed' status, followign the arguments that they've announced their departure, thus we KNOW they've left for other places, even if lacking mailing address specificity.

Exactly. He's in a state that superheroes go through all the time. Occasional critical injury is, for them, nothing new. On the gods: All I'm saying is that the Greek gods are not "almost all the Gods" as someone put it. Wryspy 15:20, 9 May 2006 (UTC) Actually, one more thought on the gods: Mortals usually don't know where their gods are. Maybe their departure belongs under Change. The departure of the Amazons and gods is more like the Big Three's voluntary break than the things that happened to the people listed under Missing. It's just a thought. I'm inclined to think they simply merit a sentence at the bottom of the Missing section. Wryspy 15:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

We could do that, but we should also include the Greek Gods. Why? In Teen Titans #33, Ares, while standing on "our" regular plane of existence, says something to the effect of "The Gods are leaving this plane", so it's pretty clear which plane "this" one referred to. Even if mortals don't know where the Gods are most of the time, The Return Of Donna Troy, Teen Titans 33, Teen Titans Annual, and the Wonder Woman of Earth-Two moments of IC make it clear all greek deities are desperately trying to leave the universe. On a completely different subject, why do we consider Breach's death to be unconfirmed? Dan Didio said that was his last appearance. It looks like they're pretty much saying "OK, we're sorry. We've realize we don't need two Captain Atoms. Our bad". I think someone said that his invulnerability is the type of thing we should consider when doubting a death. But I think the thing we should consider the most is that the person who broke Breach's shell was Superboy-Prime, who, having the level of strenght "our" Superman had in the Silver Age, was probably the most powerful being in the universe at the moment. --Ace ETP 20:39, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe that given DiDio's commentary, coupled with the comment by Alex Luthor that breach IS the Captain Atom of Earth-8, and the resultant exploding Breach yielding the return of Captain Atom (regrettably in his OLD look, nto the newet Wildstorm style, which is SO much better), any reader can infer that Captain Atom 'won' in the merging of the two, and Breach is no more, passed on, dare i say it? an EX-PARROT!ThuranX 23:07, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

If you have to "infer" then it's not confirmed, it's inferred. Doczilla 16:34, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

References to both Schrodinger's cat and the Dead Parrot sketch in the same talk page...this discussion can't possibly get any better! Actually, I was just going to move Breach from unconfirmed deaths back to deaths myself until I realized something: If he is a version of Captain Atom, couldn't his apparent death have been caused by a quantum leap? But then again, he got fried by S-Boy Prime...maybe it was the original Captain the one who leaped...Hell, I'm on the fence...So, what we gonna do 'bout them Greek Gods? --Ace ETP 02:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Given that Wonder Girl is still powered by Gods (Ares? Whatever ;) ), I think we can say that the Gods have 'left the mortal plane' or something similar. They don't show up to fix shit, but they're still tied into humanity. They're neither missing or dead, but 'changed'? -- Ipstenu 11:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The Greek gods should be listed if the Amazons are listed. Lower case g on gods. Wryspy 16:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Breach: The other characters didn't read DiDio's commentary. Would they consider him to be missing or an unconfirmed death? For all we know, he merged with Captain Atom. There's some reason Captain Atom appeared there, after all. We cannot assume that, of course. I'm just saying that even if he never appears as Breach again, that doesn't mean he's considered dead. This is supposed to be about the characters' in-story status, after all. Wryspy 16:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

In comics, if there's no body, there's no confirmed death. Doczilla 16:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Zauriel and Looker

I'm a little confused about why Zauriel got removed from the Unconfirmed Deaths list. Given comics history, most of those with unconfirmed deaths with eventually return and even some of those with confirmed deaths. I thought these lists were supposed to reflect what is known as of the end of Infinite Crisis #7, not our knowledge from 52, OYL, etc. We need to be consistent.

On the other hand, it is also possible that readers misunderstood what they saw regarding Zauriel and Looker, and that they were never supposed to seem dead in the first place. Looker's absence from oanel where Captain Atom reappeared could simply mean she got out of the way. If the depictions regarding Zauriel and Looker were simply misunderstood, then their story status was not supposed to be Unconfirmed Death. If something we learn from 52 or whatever clears up a misunderstanding, that's one case where I think it's fair to use that knowledge to edit this article, because it's simply helping us fix a mistake. Wryspy 17:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I removed Zauriel from the page because 52 #1 confirms he is alive. To start, let me just say that I put Zauriel on the page to begin with, based on Superboy-Prime's line of "Go back to your creator, angel" (or something to that effect). He isn't shown graphically dying or anything like that, his death is only hinted at from the dialogue, which is why I listed him as "unconfirmed". The whole time, I expected that whenever there was a canonical reference to his life or death, I would update his status by listing him as confirmed dead or as alive. My argument is that since 52 #1 takes place one day after Infinite Crisis, he should be taken off of the list. He was clearly not meant to have died, as I had interpretted. If we accept that only confirmation within Infinite Crisis counts, then pretty much any hero who was attacked and not shown again could technically be listed as unconfirmed dead. With the case of 52 and Infinite Crisis, an editor-heavy series of stories, which again take place within 24 hours of each other, I think the reader is meant to infer that Zauriel did not die in Infinite Crisis. --Rocketgoat 17:45, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I just brought it up because I felt that talking about it here might help avoid edit conflicts on the issue (and yet, at a glance, it looks like people are still adding and removing Zauriel). Wryspy 03:14, 13 May 2006 (UTC)