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Are Chaldeans a Subgroup of Assyrians?

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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

NO, neither is a subgroup of the other. The two names came into existence after the split of the Church of the East. Those who united with Rome were called Chaldeans, and the others were called Assyrians[1]. The name Assyrians was actually given by missionaries after Chaldeans were named by Rome. You have to realize that Assyrians are not an ethnicity, and they are not descendants of the Ancient Assyrians. Two arguments are usually presented to identify Assyrians as an ethnicity that descends from the Ancient Assyrians. First, they live in northern Iraq which was part of the lands of Assyria. However, you should know that Chaldea in 612 BC destroyed Nineveh and the Assyrian empire. In its place, Chaldeans set up a new empire. So, those people living in the north could as well be Chaldeans. No one knows how many Assyrians were killed in that war or how many Chaldeans moved north. Thus, the argument that Assyrians descend from Ancient Assyrians has no basis! The second argument that is usually presented is that the name Suraya/Suroyo, which people from all the three church denomination use, comes from Aššurayu. Saying that the word "Suraya" (Syriac: ܣܘܪܝܐ) comes from the word "Assyrian" (Syriac: ܐܫܘܪܝܐ) is the worst argument that I have heard from a non-Chaldean. Anyone who knows Aramaic knows that there is a big difference between the letters (ܣ and ܐܫ). If you claim that the rest of the word namely (ܘܪܝܐ) is the same (which by the way means "of or from" in Aramaic, but it is not a stand alone word), then you should know that there are many more words that share the same letters (ܟܘܪܝܐ "Korean" is an example. Are Koreans Assyrians too!???). Let me tell you (and every one who's reading this) the real word that the name Assyrian comes from. In the Assyrian accent of Aramaic (Arabic: اثوري), Assyrians call themselves "Aturayee" (Syriac: ܐܬܘܪܝܐ or ܐܜܘܪܝܐ) (both read atoo-rah-yey) depending on the region they come from. This word, in Aramaic, means "the men of the mountains", which is where Assyrians are located. It has nothing to do with the word "Assyrian" that relates to the Ancient Assyrians. The word that have been hijacked, "Suraya" (Syriac: ܣܘܪܝܐ), has only one meaning which is "Christian" (i.e. The person who believes in Jesus Christ), and it is not derived from the word "Assyrian".--Tisqupnaia2010 (talk) 23:59, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop posting same thing everywhere, see my answer here: Talk:Tel_Skuf#To_Mr._Iraqi_.28who_hides_his_original_identity_.28User:Chaldean.29.29 Shmayo (talk) 01:19, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Since you were jumping back and forth vandalizing any article that has the word "Chaldean" in it, I have deemed it necessary to ensure that your Assyrian Fascist views are clear to every one in Wikipedia. I have faithfully tried to clean all these articles from your Assyrian Fascism; however, you seem to be a die hard Assyrian Fascist who revert all attempts of common good. You have even succeeded in letting others (who are neither Chaldean nor Assyrian) see what kind of Assyrian Fascism you and your people are practicing in Wikipedia. --Tisqupnaia2010 (talk) 02:10, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said, if you don't like Chaldean Catholics being a part of the ACS people, when take it in Talk:Assyrian people. This is conscious reached in the talk page. Discuss there about the people, don't just do edits that you think are good. Shmayo (talk) 15:16, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong. This article is about denominations. You can take your ethnicity somewhere else. By making changes to this article, you're only exposing your fascist views.--Tisqupnaia2010 (talk) 17:15, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please read the comment and try to understand. Do you not agree? -> Talk:Assyrian people Shmayo (talk) 19:10, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What is it that you don't understand, Shmayo? This article is about Chaldeans. Assyrians can discuss Assyrian People all they want. You are free to discuss your own people. Chaldeans are not interested in discussing Assyrians. --Tisqupnaia2010 (talk) 20:28, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Chaldeans ARE actually Assyrian Catholics. The terms Assyrian and Assyria, and their derivatives, Athora, Assuristan, Athor, Syrian, Syriac etc existed from as far back as the 25th century BC, and remain unbroken. Chaldean Catholic is a modern theological term only, dating from the late 17th century AD. Where there is strong evidence of Assyrian Continuity, together with absolute proof of the continual use of the name, there is no evidence of Chaldean continuity at all, not in historical record, accredited academic study, genetics, geography or linguistics. Shmayo is clearly wrong in claiming the term Assyrian only came into being after the split in the Church of the East, it may have done as a term for the Church of the East, but it is well proven that the ethnic and geographic term existed from at the latest the 21st century BC, and has continued to be used ever since. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EddieDrood (talk • contribs) 08:09, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Chaldeans and Assyrians are clearly the SAME people

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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Chaldeans ARE a Subgroup of Assyrians, even former Patriarch Raphael Bidawid admits as such.

FACTS

1.FACT. The Assyrian Church of the East was ALREADY named as such LONG BEFORE a part of that church entered communion with Rome. So much so that the Chaldean Church was ORIGINALLY called the Church of Assyria and Mosul.

2. FACT. The Church of the East, from whence the Chaldean Church sprang was FOUNDED in Sassanid Assyria.

3. FACT. The term Chaldean today is NOT an ethnic term, it is purely denominational, and it was bestowed on those Catholic converts by ROME. The term had been dead for centuries (much like the Chaldeans themselves) since the 5th century BC.

4. FACT. Chaldean Catholics come from NORTHERN MESOPOTAMIA (IE ASSYRIA) and NOT from the far South East where the actual Chaldeans came from. They speak the same language as the Assyrians, they come from Assyria, they have the same names, the same genetic profile, and they were originally called Assyrians....so how on earth can they be not Assyrian???

5. FACT. Assyrian IS an ethnic term. Assyria existed as a named land into the 7th century AD, the Arabs in the middle ages 11th century AD referred to the NATIVE Christian people of Northern Mesopotamia as ASHURIYUN.The Armenians, Georgians, Russians did so too, from the Middle Ages. It is NOT a religious term, but an ethnic one. Many scholars accept Assyrian continuity, NONE accept Chaldean continuity!

6. FACT. The term Syriac actually means and originally meant Assyrian. Scholarly views and the Cinekoy Inscription prove this.

7. If the Chaldeans are not ethnic Assyrians, what ethnicity are they??? They are certainly NOT Ancient Chaldeans, so are they Arabs? Kurds?, Armenians? Greeks? Iranians?..Syriacs?..Syriac MEANS Assyrian originally.

8. FACT. Chaldean Catholics are ethnic Assyrian Catholics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.111.12.105 (talk) 06:39, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Those labels like Chaldeans and Nestorians are misnomers, attached to Assyrians by Europeans. Those people were known as Assyrians by all their neighbors and as well, by themselves. As for Syriacs, it isnt an ethnic label, there arent such a race as Syriacs, its just a kind of catch-all to describe any christian from the Mid East. Originally though, Syriac meant the same thing as Assyrian, and it derives from Assyrian. Hard to see how Chaldeans can be anything other than Assyrians, I mean, they are from Northern Iraq which was Assyria, their church was called the church of Assyria to start with, and of Mosul....both those places are in the north where the Assyrians live. Also, the church was renamed as Chaldean by the Italians to mark it out from the Assyrian Eastern Church, meaning the Assyrian Church and Assyrian Identity were already there.

Ethnic Chaldeans?

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unproductive soapboxing
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Unless someone can provide accredited and mainstream academic study which proves a clear historical, ethnic, geographical and linguistic link between the modern Chaldean Catholics of Northern Iraq and the extinct Chaldean tribes of south eastern Iraq, this article should stay with the consensus that Chaldean Catholics are in fact north Mesopotamian Assyrians who converted to Catholicism in the 17th century AD.

The name Assurayu/Assyrian/Assyria, (together with derivatives of those names such as Athura, Assuristan, Ator, Syria, Syriac, Ashuriyun, Assouri, Turyoyo, Suryoyo etc) have been in constant use to describe both the land and the indigenous people of northern Mesopotamia from the 25th century BC to the 7th century AD in terms of the land, and to the present when describing the people. While there is strong evidence of Assyrian Continuity, there is none whatsoever for Chaldean Continuity. The name was only established in the late 17th century AD, and then only as the name of a church and not a people.

It is noteworthy that the term Assyria (and derivatives of that term) have been used constantly by the Assyrians themselves, in historical record, and by neighbouring peoples for over 4000 years, but in stark contrast the term Chaldean, when used to describe an ethnic group, wholly disappeared in the 6th century BC, and when used to describe a social class of Astrologers and Astronomers (not a race), disappeared in the 2nd century BC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EddieDrood (talk • contribs) 08:27, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@EddieDrood You EddieDrood do not get to decide who Chaldeans are, we Chaldeans decide who we are. Chaldeans are ethnically, nationality wise, culturally, and religiously Chaldeans, we are not Assyrians and we will never be Assyrians. The head of the Chaldean Church has constantly said we are not ethnically Assyrians but Chaldeans. YOu are very clearly an anti-Chaldean bigot from the things you said above and you are a fascist who wants to impose his views on others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.158.61.66 (talk) 23:36, 16 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well Raphael Bidawid would disagree with you, so would mainstream ACADEMIC opinion, by the way, the aforementioned Academic Opinion consists of studies supporting an Assyrian continuity in Northern Iraq, but NONE supporting a Chaldean continuity. Furthermore, none of those Academics are Assyrians. Chaldean in a modern sense is just the name of a church founded in NORTHERN Mesopotamia (what was Assyria) in 1683 AD, where did the name Chaldean exist to describe the Christians of NORTHERN Mesopotamia BEFORE 1683?..in, lets say 1500 AD? 1400 AD? 1200 AD? 1000 AD? 700 AD? 500 AD? 300 AD?, 20 AD? 100 BC?, 300 BC?, 500 BC? 800 BC? 1000 BC? NOWHERE!..HOWEVER, there ARE records of the land and its people being called Assyrians throughout all those periods. Does that not tell you something? The land and its people were ALWAYS called Assyrians or Syrians/Syriacs (both originate from Assyria also).

Why would I be an Anti-Chaldean Bigot? The Chaldeans, who existed in SOUTHEAST Mesopotamia from the 9th to 6th centuries BC, are extinct. Why be bigotted against an extinct race? — Preceding unsigned comment added by EddieDrood (talk • contribs) 10:55, 17 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

User:EddieDrood You are a major anti-Chaldean bigot who knows nothing about Chaldean history, heritage or culture. All you know is you are a major anti-Chaldean bigot who makes it your life mission to enforce your anti-Chaldean bigotry on others. I consider your vandalism of Chaldean pages and actions a HATE CRIME aimed at ethnically cleansing and ethnically targeting Chaldeans with your bigotry. You know absolutely nothing about history except that you are a bigot.

At the start of 2003 there were more Chaldeans living in Southern Iraq (Basra and other cities) than there were Chaldeans living in the North; these where Chaldeans whose families had lived in Southern Iraq for thousands of years. But, I do not expect you to know this because you do not know anything about Chaldean history and culture. All you know is you are an anti-Chaldean bigot with a political agenda, who wants to force your bigotry on others, try your best to ethnically cleanse Chaldeans. The sourced materials provided come from Chaldean Church leaders. NO ONE is in a better position to determine and state who its members are than Chaldean leaders. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.77.89.81 (talk) 17:20, 17 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What's your point man? Assyrians have always moved in around Iraq. I knew a lot of ACOE Assyrians in Basra. Again, like what others said, Chaldeans are mostly extinct or have merged into other Mesopotamian populations. Modern day Sabbeans/Mandeans are more likely to be descended from ancient Chaldeans. Hate it to break it to you, but you guys are still Assyrians - You originate from upper Mesopotamia (Zakho, Teskof, Ankawa, etc - I'm sure you know these villages). And even how you look sort of shows your true identity - Many "Chaldeans" are light featured with brown hair, pale skin and hazel eyes. How the hell would someone from the scorching southern Iraq region look like that? Beats me. Meganesia (talk 08:57, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Erroneous Info

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The reference to the events of October 2010 are completely incorrect. The Church at which the massacre occurred was not a Chaldean Catholic Church, rather it was the Syriac Catholic Cathedral.Irish Melkite (talk) 06:23, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have deleted the sentence "The most notable example of Persecution is the 31 October 2010 attack on Chaldeans during a Sunday Mass (See Murders of Chaldeans and Notable Clergy)." Irish Melkite (talk) 06:29, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have also deleted the entire paragraph which read:

"On 31 October 2010, 58 Iraqi Chaldeans were killed by Muslim Extremists while attending Sunday Mass, 78 others were wounded. The attack by Muslim terrorists on the congregation of Our Lady of Salvation Catholic Church was the bloodiest single attack on an Iraqi Christian church in recent history. In responding to the attack, the White House issued a generic statement, saying the “United States strongly condemns this senseless act of hostage taking and violence by terrorists linked to al-Qaida in Iraq that occurred Sunday in Baghdad killing so many innocent Iraqis.” The White House did not mention that the victims were Christians or that they had been attending church. A prominent American Jewish leader agreed. “We are stunned by the barbarity of this onslaught. We share the grief of the survivors, the families of victims, and our many friends in Christian communities worldwide,” said Rabbi Abraham Cooper, Associate Dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. [2]"

and am moving it to the article on the Syriac Catholic Church, with appropriate changes from Chaldean to Syriac in the text Irish Melkite (talk) 06:33, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lol to find proof of the Chaldeans being linked to the Ancient Babylonians and not being assyrians (THANK GOD), look at the stamp on this page itself, and read it and then come back and talk. Also proof of assyrians being savages of the mountians like the name clearly states "Nashit Turra" (people of the mountains), look at WW1 flag of the Assyrians and tell me that the British didn't create them out of thin air to have them fight the turks.

  1. ^ Wilhelm Baum and Dietmar Winkler: The Church of the East: A Concise History. London: RoutledgeCurzon, 2003. page 135.
  2. ^ {{cite web|url=http://www.newsmax.com/KenTimmerman/joseph-kassab-christians-iraq/2010/11/02/id/375698 |title=Muslim Terrorists Murder 58 Iraqi Christians in Church|accessdate=2010-11-14}
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I tried to find a page for the rite on the Vatican website, but found only scattered references, including the link already in the relevant section on instruction for receiving communion in another rite. Restored a category, added a link on a parish in Michigan that has additional information on the Chaldean Catholics. I also removed the dead link: (*Catholic Churches[dead link‍] (In German)). I'll look to see if the page is archived elsewhere. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 21:26, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Move discussion in progress

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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Chaldean Christians which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:15, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Catholic Church naming conventions RfC

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There is currently an RfC at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Catholic_Church)#RfC:_should_this_page_be_made_a_naming_convention that may be of interest. Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 23:42, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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POV concerns regarding persecution

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Removed POV banner from August 2019. Persecution may be executed by collectives of private individuals as well as proper states. The "criminal elements," as the concerned party described, are substantial in size, capacity, and actions and have provably increased in size and intensity in the aftermath of the 2003 invasion of Iraq, as evident in the sources I have added to the appropriate section. Please refrain from using the section to construct any narrative. Pbritti (talk) 21:59, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, all of this is in response to the following quoted edit from 49.198.7.235 at 07:06, 9 August 2019‎: "→‎Persecution in Iraq and Syria: Template:POV WP:BURDEN Chaldean Christians enjoy a position among the privileged wealthy elites in iraq and syria. perhaps this is connected to why organizations trying to overthrow the government would target them? provided reliable references to show that official government support and protections exist for Chaldean Christians in iraq and syria. A criminal/organization attacking a christian is not evidence of the persecution of christians." An additional concern I have is the failure to properly substantiate and flesh-out the claim that Chaldeans "enjoy a position among the privileged wealthy elites," which mirrors many statements made regarding Jews or Asian-Americans in the United State–both are populations disproportionately represented in "elite" circles but simultaneously face forms of structural and institutional discrimination. Further, the claim that an organization attacking individual Christians is not "persecution" is a failure to understand how persecution occurs (the Know-Nothings of the 19th-century United States had significant ability to persecute Catholics without necessarily holding civic authority in a given area). While I believe this was a good-faith edit, I am dismayed at the rationale presented for the POV template's insertion. Pbritti (talk) 22:28, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Is the modern Chaldean C. Church still considered to be Nestorian?

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This article is unclear on this point. (I'm not sure whehter the modern Roman Catholic Church considers Nestorianism to be heresy.) Acwilson9 (talk) 09:42, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

the modern CCC is not Nestorian. The article refers to confessions of faith and Catholic confession of faith, etc - those would be anti-Nestorian.

Nowadays the modern RCC doesn't like to call anything a heresy. But it is. --142.163.194.106 (talk) 02:15, 7 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Malicious Edit by User:Semsûrî

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Semsûrî

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to engage in subtle vandalism, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not change information such as numbers and dates without explanation.Information icon Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been or will be reverted.

Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive. Continued disruptive editing may result in loss of editing privileges. Thank you.

Regarding the edit you made on this article. You had erased content that was directly listed in the Baumer source. Yes, the page number (161) was incorrect, I fixed that to 261.

However, not only did you erase information instead of correcting the page number cited, it appears you arbitrarily selected a page number that is completely irrelevant to that information that the source was citing. This is damaging to Wikipedia and is essentially vandalism. The page number you added (page 137 of the Baumer reference) is completely irrelevant to the subject matter. You can see for yourself in the table of contents here:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=UhiWDwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

The genocide information starts on page 260. The page number you selected (page 137) is about a completely different historical era. I had assumed good faith at first but this edit seems malicious. Please do not do this. I was going to place a warning on your talk page but it is protected. Let the record show here that you have been warned here for subtle vandalism and disruptive editing.

--Assyriandude (talk) 20:41, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It was not an arbitrarily selected page. It was the only page in the whole book with the word 'jihad' and that's why I went with it. "On the one side, the Turkish and Kurdish troops proclaimed a “jihad” (holy war), while on the other, the Russians supplied the Christians with weapons." --Semsûrî (talk) 20:50, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Please have a look at this table of contents of the book to see the page that you referenced:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=UhiWDwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
You can clearly see that the page you referenced is not relevant to the text that was cited. Your intentions may have been in good faith but this is still disruptive to Wikipedia. If you believe that the word "jihad" was not cited on page 261, you should have removed only that word, instead of deleting the information in the previous sentence. I'm just letting you know for the future that doing that may be considered subtle vandalism.--Assyriandude (talk) 21:00, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

metropolitan Philip Abraham (later history of the CC)

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Philip Abraham is wikilinked to an Anglican bishop in 'newfoundland' who is not the same person. --142.163.194.106 (talk) 02:20, 7 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

names of eparchies changed

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why are the names of the eparchies changed? E.g. the Chaldean Catholic Eparchy of Mar Addai of Toronto is changed in the link to St. Addai Chaldean Eparchy of Canada, which is not its name. Why? --142.163.194.106 (talk) 02:52, 7 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple reverts

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There has been a flurry of reversions to this article in the past few hours. I just added to that trend by reverting Paul7steps's multiple recent edits. @Paul7steps: I have no reason to doubt your edits are good-faith or accurate (I am totally unfamiliar with this topic), but I can tell you that you need a source besides "Approved research by the Chaldean church with certified references" and that it doesn't help Wikipedia to repeatedly insist that "If you don't agree, please contact the Chaldean church."

In general, a review of recent edit history suggests to me that this page could use some level of protection. With the religious, ethnic, and political interests involved, I worry edit warring and unsourced contributions will continue. Hoping someone more expert can chime in. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 05:20, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Firefangledfeathers: Thank you for opening this discussion. I too have concerns about the edits by Paul7steps. Those edit summaries give the appearance that the user is editing on behalf of the Chaldean Catholic Church, whether in an official capacity (where WP:PAID is a major concern) or an unofficial one (where WP:COI needs addressed). I encourage Paul7steps to discuss the situation, either here or on their user talk page. However, if the edits continue unabated, then some level of administrative action will be necessary: semi-protection of this page, (partial) blocking of the new user, or a combination thereof. —C.Fred (talk) 15:57, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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