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Talk:Chaim Grade

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The name "Grade"

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According to his biography, the equally Jewish Lew Grade was born "Winogradsky". Did this Grade's at one point father change his own name as well? Insert coins (talk) 10:20, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Joseph Epstein

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Joseph Epstein's 'Beyond the Pale' is based on this writer , according to an email exchange with Selected Shorts. (i dont have a publically verifiable reference for it, so im putting it here instead of the article) Decora (talk) 00:36, 13 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Northwest Bronx

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There are two schools of thought regarding what makes for "west" versus "east" in the Bronx. One is to use the Bronx River, the other is to use Jerome Avenue (because of "West" and "East" streets). See Google Maps, which puts Amalgamated Housing Cooperative about 2000 feet to the west of Jerome Avenue, which is itself about 2000 feet west of the Bronx River, so under either system, AHC is in the West. Choor monster (talk) 17:46, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The coop itself describes itself as being located in the northwest:

The Amalgamated Cooperative is located in the northwest Bronx along the southern border of Van Cortlandt Park

This is from page 40 of the Cooperators' Handbook, which was page 48 of a 65 page pdf.

See also Van Cortlandt Village, which is the Bronx neighborhood containing the coop (as the article mentions) and, as the article mentions, is part of the northwest Bronx. See also List of Bronx neighborhoods, which includes Van Cortlandt Village as part of the northwest. Choor monster (talk) 18:21, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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This is a continuation of a discussion begun on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam#yiddishbookcenter.org. The YBC has been adding numerous links to articles. They seem to be trying to be on-topic, the question is whether these links are WP:ELYES, WP:ELMAYBE or WP:ELNO.

  1. The first YBC link is indeed to material that should be incorporated into the article, so should be deleted per ELNO#1. On the other hand, the link would then survive as a reference. (Comment: I don't get this: deleting the link makes it a wee bit more difficult to incorporate the relevant material down the road.) I see no other reason that ELNO applies.
  2. The second YBC link is to Grade's comments on Yiddish literature. As a pre-eminent figure in Yiddish literature, Grade's views on Yiddish literature are certainly important, and ought to be incorporated into any fully encyclopedic article on Grade. Copyright prevents us from incorporating the material directly, so ELYES#3 applies.
  3. The third YBC link is to a recording of Grade reading from his own work and an interview. I can't imagine why anyone thinks that is off-topic, and again, ELYES#3 applies. That it's in Yiddish is completely irrelevant. Choor monster (talk) 16:20, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did not notice, and I see you have removed two other ELs, a copy of a poem of his and his elegy for the Chazon Ish. I really don't get this at all. Both are copyrighted, and both are certainly relevant, especially the elegy. The Chazon Ish was an extremely important influence on Grade growing up, and The Yeshiva is, among other things, a powerful tribute to the Chazon Ish. That was one of the things that blew me away about the novel, in fact. And you've decided it's of no interest regarding Grade? Choor monster (talk) 16:31, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    (1) Regarding external links that might be used as references: Since they don't belong as external links I will often just leave them on WP:STUB articles, or move them to the talk page.
    (2)Copyright doesn't stop us from quoting or summarizing, though we need to be careful with the summarizing to avoid WP:OR problems.
    (3)Him reading his own work isn't about him.
    Being interviewed does result in information about him, though the material is primary.
    It being a recording severely restricts access.
    It being non-English runs us into WP:NONENGEL.
    Overall, too much of the information is not about him, what information that is about him is inaccessible, and there's no reason that non-redundant and encyclopedic inforation cannot be included in the article.
    Regarding your final sentence: Again, the information isn't about him.
    Finally, in general we don't want external links in articles but rather good content incorporated into the articles directly. We're here to build an encylopedia, not link to related websites. --Ronz (talk) 16:55, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see this "not about him" point whatsoever. You as might as well say his photograph is "not about him". An article about an author is typically about the person and about his works. To the extent that the works are separately notable, they get spun off into separate articles. An author's reading of his own work typically tells us something about the work that is difficult to convey in words. I would consider an objection to an EL that was some random professor's lecture about Grade as reasonable. I consider your present objections regarding topic confused and irrelevant.
  • There are no accessibility issues of the ELNO sort. WP:NONENGEL isn't an issue with respect to the first YBC link, which is in English, nor to the second YBC link, since it comes with English subtitles. For the others, NONENGEL allows for exceptions, and these are pretty much a bullseye when it comes to justification of an exception, since Yiddish is Grade's native tongue and the language of his works.
  • Your comment on copyright is simply a dodge: Copyright also allows us to justify some instances of EL, per ELYES.
  • Again, I repeat myself with emphasis: When you state that Grade's comments on perhaps the most significant influence on his life and his writing are not about him, I'm hearing stark-raving lunacy. Not run-of-the-mill disagreement. Similarly, the poem is autobiographical—as in, it is 100% about "him"—and it concerns Mussar and a Mussarnik, something that played an important role in his life, poetry, and fiction.
  • Yes, we want good encyclopedic content. The solution is WP:FIXIT, not delete useful ELYES links and congratulate yourself on "improving" the encyclopedia. Choor monster (talk) 17:17, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"I consider your present objections regarding topic confused and irrelevant." "...simply a dodge" "stark-raving lunacy" Then take it to WP:ELN. In the meantime, I'm removing them per WP:ELBURDEN. --Ronz (talk) 17:34, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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