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Archive 1Archive 2

Untitled

See Talk:Chad/temp for the temporary version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Angela (talk • contribs) 04:36, 4 October 2003‎

Romania's flag

What the hell is Romania's flag doing in the article? Is it a typo? [[User:NazismIsntCool|Nazism isn't cool]] 10:32, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Chad No, its not a typo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by El Froggo (talk • contribs) 06:31, 29 July 2005‎
'Identical flag' causes flap in Romania from BBC — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stickywiki (talk • contribs) 09:11, 9 October 2005‎

American POV

I've removed the statement that Chad is "about three times the size of Texas". First of all, Chad (1,284,000 sq.km.) is not even twice as big as Texas (696,000 sq. km.). Secondly, only Americans will understand it. --BucInExile 12:40, 11 August 2005 (UTC)


UPDATE I have significantly updated this article in two areas: 1) History: If you visited the site to find out about the country's recent history, it was next to irrelevant. The separate 'history' article is interesting, but too long for reference. The civil war is extremely important to undrestanding the country's recent history. 2) Economy: The fact that Chad became an oil-producing nation in 2003 is absolutely vital.

I've updated the "Economy" section using various sources on the web (mainly World Bank and French-language media). This is a very big deal for the Chad government -- it means they have a large income stream that doesn't depend on taxing the peasantry. It will be interesting to see how things change on the ground and whether ordinary people start to see any benefits from oil.... Kahuzi 16:20, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Huh?

I don't know much at all about this subject but these lines don't seem to make any sense to me: In December, 1980 Libya occupied all of northern Chad, but Habré defeated Libyan troops and drove them out in November, 1981. In 1983, Qaddafi's troops occupied all of the country north of Koro Toro. Banes 17:19, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Rally for Democracy and Liberty

Rally for Democracy and Liberty, or Movement for Democracy and Freedom, aren't those the rebels that the government of Chad is fighting in the civil war. And isn't suspected support from Sudan for these rebels the main reason for the war between Chad and Sudan? Shouldn't this be included? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.224.128.98 (talk • contribs) 22:57, 24 December 2005‎

Chad - World bank friction

I wish there was more information on the new law. That way, one can read and have a rough idea where both World bank and Chad are coming from. At the moment, one if left in an infinate loop. Something like "The law madated that money can only be used for education or transportation" is better. "Development projects" is too fuzzy - could mean subsidizing some tycoons at which point, Chad would be heading to the right direction. It could mean investing on transportation infrustructure at which point Chad would be messing up Quote "Chad hopes to avoid the waste and corruption experienced in some other African oil-producing countries; as a condition of its assistance, the World Bank has insisted on a new law which requires that 80% of oil revenues will be spent on development projects. However, in January 2006 the World Back suspended its loan program to Chad, in reaction to the Chadian decision to "relax" laws governing the spending of oil money. Chad's response is that the World Bank is using Chad as a test subject for different management styles." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wk muriithi (talk • contribs) 14:33, 12 January 2006‎

Corruption, governmental style and PQLI

Can somebody who knows about these things add some Economist Intelligence Unit or CIA handbook facts on what living in Chad is like? Is it a corrupt regime? Does it have the potential for great wealth but is badly managed (such as Ghana or Congo) or has it just been unfortunately marred by its geographical location ( as Mali has to a degree)? What is the Physical Quality of Life (PQLI) like for citizens? 193.129.65.37 09:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I just spent the past two years living in Chad and I'd be happy to add updates on this subject if anyone's interested. I can find some citations from the above-mentioned sources, and I know that there's a variety of other sources (Transparency International, which recently ranked Chad as the most corrupt country in the world, and the Foreign Policy magazine Failed States Index) on point, too. I'm not sure if that's viewed as too editorial -- since they don't cast a particularly flattering light on the Chadian government -- but, on the other hand, they're unbiased third-party sources and they confirm what I saw while there living au village in Chad, which is that life is quite hard for the citizens (the father of the family I lived with, for example, hasn't been paid for five months now; he's a teacher and should be paid by the government). Let me know if I should do some research on the topic. ConsiderPhlebas 1:22 PM, August 23, 2006

Thanks for the welcome messages. I haven't had much time lately to follow up on the message I posted above, but I will try to do so shortly and if there are any other articles on life in Chad or whatever that you'd like me to take a look at (from the perspective of someone who lived there recently and is still in touch with a number of Chadians), please let me know. I've updated the "Holidays in Chad" page to reflect information I compiled for the Peace Corps/Chad cross-cultural manual and which reflects the national holidays as best as I could ascertain them while in Chad in 2003-2005. Also, a link to the Transparency International report that ranked Chad tied with Bangladesh as the world's most corrupt country: http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2005. If it's felt appropriate to include it, per the initial request above, can someone add it where it belongs? (I'm still figuring out where things should go and how to format them correctly!). Another link that might merit reference is the UNDP's Human Development Index (see hdr.undp.org and the reference at http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0778562.html; the latter ranks Chad as the fifth "least livable" country in the world). The HDI also has an article here on Wikipedia and a country list by ranking, which is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index and could be linked to in a discussion of Chad. I think both of those are worth adding into the main page somewhere. I saw the HDI listing in the info box, and maybe that's enough, but it seems like the text as currently written does not really reference either quality of life or corruption and, given Chad's extremely low world rankings in each, I think those are important to get a true sense of life in Chad. ConsiderPhlebas 12:06 a.m. October 1, 2006

New images

I've noticed several new images have been place on this page. At best, they need tidying up; at worst, they add nothing and should be removed. I can't even make one of them out properly. Haven't got time to sort it out now (it's getting late), I'd welcome other views (or I might just delete the lot if I have time tomorrow). Kahuzi 22:55, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd support deleating the lot, for exactly the reasons you said. Also it's time to make more concise the history section, making it shorter; but I can deal with that section. And BTW, great idea an article on Françoise Claustre; I've also long been thinking of writing an article on the Claustre affair, but never seemed to find time.--Aldux 23:15, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I've moved one image to the History of Chad page, where I think it's more relevant. The other two (Chadian girls) look much better on my PC at work than they did last night, at home, so I'll leave them (I now think they do add something to that section). Support your idea for revising the history section on the main page -- it should be a better summary of "History of Chad", whereas at the moment, it's too heavy on some recent stuff and misses other periods altogether. Kahuzi 08:01, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Re Claustre, I was in Africa at the time and met some of the people involved, so it was easier for me. There are one or two other characters mentioned who don't have pages -- we should decide which ones are sufficiently notable to merit a page (Pierre Galopin?)and which "red" links should be removed (e.g Christophe Staewen, Marc Combe). Kahuzi 08:01, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I hope you don't disagree, but I removed the image also from History of Chad, as it was a work of immagination of the editor. Regarding the images, maby we could just select one of the two, to not full with too much images a small section; but I don't think it's very important, and won't insist. As for Claustre, Galopin is important enough to deserve a biog.; Combe was moderately important, as number two, I believe, of the MRA, and maybe relevant enough for an article (but I'm not sure); while Staewen does not seem to have any importance out of his involvement in the affair. How do you see it?--Aldux 14:02, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Re removal of image from History of Chad -- no problem. On the others:
  • Maps - there are too many. I'd delete the first satellite image and replace it with the second, which gives a clearer idea of the country's geography and climate. I'd also delete the "Aozou strip" map and move it to "History", if it's not there already, and keep the other map
  • Portraits - Picture of Idriss Déby to illustrate "Politics" is fine. I'd keep the pictures of the two girls in "Culture" but I do recognise that we ought to be able to find something better.
Kahuzi 17:04, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
What kind of "better" portraits are you looking for? Specific pictures of figures from Chadian history? Or just general pictures of Chadians and/or life au Tchad? I have plenty of the latter I'd be happy to share if appropriate (though some may be better fits for other articles, like the "Transportation in Chad" article, for example).ConsiderPhlebas 12:06 AM, October 1, 2006
I find it interesting that both of the pictures of the Chadian girls show the girls without headscarves. Not to open up a can of politically correct worms or anything, but during my two years in Chad, girls (and definitely women) from both the Muslim and Christian traditions rarely went out in public without a headscarf of some sort (unless it was Women's Day, or in N'Djamena or there was some other similarly "liberated" reason behind it). If we're looking to be representative, it seems maybe we should show at least one picture with a scarf or headwrap on. ConsiderPhlebas 20:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Re Galopin; I'll put him on my "To do" list (I think there's enough material to do a stub, at least). Not sure about Combe, though, and I think we should remove the link from Staewen. Kahuzi 17:04, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

The "Arabic" name

At the beginning of the article, the name Chad is also spelt in Arabic: Chad (Arabic:تشاد , Tašād; etc... Now, the arabic spelling is but a way of writing the sound ch (tch") in a writing system which has not it (using t + š). The romanicized form Tašād is wrong. It refers to the rules of "Classical Arabic" (which rule out words beginning with a consonantal cluster), but this name does not belong to classical Arabic. IMHO it shouldn't be romanicized. If we feel we NEED to romanicize it, we should simply spell: Tšad. --Vermondo 10:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Ciao Vermondo, nice to see you here, I'm a great admirer of your work on the Italian wiki. Regarding the name the official language of Chad is, I believe, classical Arabic, and not Chadian Arabic. So shouldn't the romanicized form reflect this? Anyways, I'm not an expert, so I'll use Tšad as proposed.--Aldux 14:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

What does Chad mean anyway? :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.21.221 (talk) 00:39, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

mistake in this article

someone has used the phrase mentally retarded, this should be deleted as soon as possible by someone who can edit this page — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.227.125.96 (talk • contribs) 16:15, 30 October 2006‎

Rhupsced and canadian rockstars.

Reference to the renaming of this country in honour of a Canadian rock star, and referring to this country's previous name "Rhupsced" must be some body's idea of a joke. It ain't funny. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.86.45.250 (talk) 13:45, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

More vandalism

Second sentence of "History" section reads: "Relatively weak local kingdoms which developed gradually in the region were later overtaken by the larger and more powerful Chad Paquette." I assume this is the result of vandalism but not sure what it should say. Can someone correct it please? Kahuzi 14:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Sources for culture section

I did a little digging around and found some potential leads for information to flesh out the "Culture" section of the article:

  • Abbink, Jon G. (no date). "Culture of Chad". Accessed 1 June 2007. Contains good information, but not a reliable source itself (there is no indication of who runs the site). Offered rather because it does cite sources for the info, sources that can possibly be tracked down and consulted.
  • "Chadians". Accessed 1 June 2007. Same parent site as above. Not reliable itself, but cites some sources that may help.
  • Collelo, Thomas (December 1988). "A Country Study: Chad". U.S. Library of Congress Federal Research Division. Outdated, but may have some useful cultural info.
  • Rosensweig, Brahm (2001). Chad: A Cultural Profile. Toronto: Anti-Racism, Multiculturalism and Native Issues (AMNI) Centre, Faculty of Social Work, University of Toronto. ISBN 0-7727-9102-3. Perhaps the most potentially useful of the bunch?

Not much, but it's a start. I'll see if I can't dig up more when I get some free time. — Amcaja (talk) 05:03, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot Brian! While Collelo hasn't got much for the Culture section, the Rosensweig paper has a lot of stuff and will be very useful. Thanks again!--Aldux 16:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

History

Made a small change to the history section to improve the grammar/flow. Hope it hasn't altered the sense. I think Aldux made the alteration before mine. Trugster 19:49, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:CEN-SAD-emblem.png

Image:CEN-SAD-emblem.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

when to feature

Has there been any discussion of when to make a request of Raul654 that this go on the Main Page? August 11th is the obvious date, but a year is quite a wait... - BanyanTree 20:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Even if we don't file a request, I suspect the article will see the main page sooner rather than later. Raul654 seems to like to keep the main page articles diverse, and featured articles on Africa-related topics are few and far between. I never requested Cameroon for the main page, yet he placed it there soon after it became featured (and that one coincided pretty well with Cameroonian parliamentary elections, 2007, although I think that was just coincidence). That said, if there is a Chadian holiday coming up before next 11 August, that might be a good date to request. — Amcaja (talk) 22:06, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Brian: IMO we don't really need to post a specific request, as it will probably arrive quite early. But if we really want a fixed date, we can always propose the Freedom and Democracy Day..... (pardon a bit of black humor ;-)).--Aldux 23:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Ha! If there's no real preference, let's let Raul do his thing. Thanks, BanyanTree 23:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Further reading

I removed the "Further reading" section that was added today. It consisted of these items:

  • Azevedo, Mario Joaquim, and Emmanuel U. Nnadozie. Chad: A Nation in Search of Its Future. Nations of the modern world. Boulder, Colo: Westview Press, 1998. ISBN 0813386772
  • Kehmeier, Norman, and Dorothy Kehmeier. Chadian Diary: The Peace Corps Experiences of Norman & Dorothy Kehmeier, February 1978 to March 1979, Chad, Africa. [Ndjamena, Chad: Peace Corps], 1979.
  • Kelley, Michael P. A State in Disarray: Conditions of Chad's Survival. Westview special studies on Africa. Boulder, Colo: Westview Press, 1986. ISBN 0813303621
  • Lapie, Pierre-Olivier, and Leslie Bull. My Travels Through Chad. London: J. Murray, 1943.
  • Mays, Terry M. Africa's First Peacekeeping Operation: The OAU in Chad, 1981-1982. Westport, Conn: Praeger, 2002. ISBN 0275976068

The problem is that there are literally hundreds (if not thousands) of books and journal articles that could be added to a "further reading" section on Chad. There is no particular reason that I see that these few items deserve special mention when they weren't used to write the article. If there's pertinent information in these volumes, great, but let's use it to write articles, not just advertise for the books on Wikipedia. (No offense is intended to User:Rosiestephenson, mind you; I have no doubt she acted in good faith by adding the list.) — Amcaja (talk) 22:24, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Fully agree. Just to give an idea on how big a "further reading" on Chad can be, Samuel Decalo in his Historical Dictionary of Chad devotes no less than 193 pages to listing literaly thousands of titles from books, journals, newspapers.--Aldux 23:16, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

references?

Wow, not a single reference in three paragraphs of leader in a featured article. Some pretty strong statements, too: "dead heart", "most corrupt". Is that the new guide for wikipedia?--24.86.252.26 08:59, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Generally the lead summarises information from the body of the article, where the information should be cited. See this for more information. Recurring dreams 12:11, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Above commenter is right. Although this is debated, consensus seems to support that since a lead just summarizes hte body of the article, citations aren't needed. However, if the claims it makes aren't cited below, then there's a problem that should be addressed in the usual way (fix it, tag it or remove it). --W.marsh 17:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the lead has deliberately been left void of citations, as the citations that support the lead are all present in the main body, so nothing has been left unreferenced.--Aldux 23:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Once the dust has settled. . .

Maybe tomorrow or the next day, we should do a side-by-side comparison of the article before and after it was on the main page. There were no doubt lots of good edits to it during its moment in the limelight, but vandalism may have slipped through, and some of the good-faith changes may not have been for the better. For example, the density of blue links is much heavier now, which indicates that the piece is now overlinked. — Amcaja (talk) 05:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll start controlling the text for vandalism, unsourced additions and ill-conceived edits. The problem of overlinking is true, even if it's more slippery.
I wanted also to here your advice on this: I've written a timeline article, 2007 in Chad, and will write in time also 2006 in Chad. As all the 2006, 2007, ecc. articles have hardly any interest for Chad, I was thinking of replacing 2006, 2007 with 2007 in Chad and 2006 in Chad (when made) in Chad-related articles. What do you think? Should I mintain the links to 2006 and 2007 instead?
A last thing: if you ever happen to see on the web a public domain image of Hissène Habré, could you please upload it. It's incredible, but even if he is often mentioned in media and an international trial is being prepared against him, wikipedia doesn't have a single photo of this guy. Ciao, Aldux 00:10, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

USD?

The sentence "ExxonMobil leads a consortium of Chevron and Petronas that has invested $3.7 billion to develop oil reserves estimated at one billion barrels in southern Chad." does not tell what kind of dollar. I assume it is USD, just want it confirmed. Grrahnbahr (talk) 14:53, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Demographics

According to the article "25.8% (of the Chadians) live in urban areas and 74.8% in rural ones". This is more than 100%. Is this correct? Grrahnbahr (talk) 17:35, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


Agreement

thats right. also an estamte for population. how do we know someone didnt just write a random number. actually how do we even know any of this page is correct —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.51.183.31 (talk) 09:18, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Where did "HISTORY OF CHAD" go?

A country with an urban culture (Kotoko city states) that reaches back to the 5th century before the common era has its history deleted? This section was there just a week ago, who deleted it, where did it go? Whoever deleted the history section of a sovereign and historical state, please reinstate this section! thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.246.63.221 (talk) 05:53, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I haven't the faintest idea, but the article is at history of Chad. Somebody needs to make a summary and add it to the article. Zazaban (talk) 02:35, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Hmmm... got vandalized on 22 January and then a bot "fixed" a repeated citation that had been removed when the history section disappeared, which makes the page disappear on watchlists for those editors who hide bot edits. This was followed by a typical vandalism and reversion, and by that time the original vandalism was buried three edits into the history and nobody spotted it. Now is about the time for a long term semi protection... - BanyanTree 02:49, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Edit request from Jdbroxme, 12 April 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} i love this page it is very informative and useful for any project. thank you sooooo much and come check out my page ( as soon as i figure out how to use it) hahahaha


Jdbroxme (talk) 13:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC) thanks and bye

Thanks for the comment!  Chzz  ►  14:19, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Why picture of an embassy in USA?

I'm questioning the relevance of a picture of an Embassy of Chad in USA under "Politics and government" where relations to with the USA is not mentioned at all. Wouldn't it be better with a picture of a political institution within Chad? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.209.97.57 (talk) 10:53, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

RFC Notice

Wrong photo?

The photo with the localization of Chad in Africa is not the right one, or the comment/legend is misplaced. There is no "dark blue", "dark gray", "light blue" in that photo. We'd like the photo be changed, and not the legend :) as the legend is more explanatory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LaurV (talk • contribs) 05:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

love the chad page

i love the chad artical௫ lol loveBryanna5 (talk) 14:00, 8 May 2014 (UTC) Bryanna

we ALL love the chad artical Bryanna5 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.219.183.158 (talk) 15:40, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Origin of the name 'Chad'

It would interesting to know why it's called Chad! Ender's Shadow Snr (talk) 23:22, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Chad's Television service

Chad's television service is Télé Tchad, not TeleChad. NetHelper (talk) 03:53, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

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HAOW CAN WE RITE IN CHAD LANGUAGES

whay there is not photos of the charecters of the languages of africa — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.0.98.156 (talk • contribs) 07:26, December 14, 2018 (UTC)

Try clicking on the links at Languages of Chad. As for this article, I don't think it needs any more photos. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:47, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Years in Chad

Template:Years in Chad has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. -- M2545 (talk) 13:36, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Arabic transliteration

I know just enough Arabic to get in trouble, and I don't see why this edit is the correct transliteration. Why is Taw transliterated as T and not Ta? If you know about ar-en transliteration, can you enlighten? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 08:14, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Incorrect map

The map showing the location of Chad shows Eritrea and Ethiopia as one country. Would it be possible to fix this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.28.198.9 (talk) 17:21, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Request made for map to be rectified.--Quisqualis (talk) 17:42, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
Map now shows Eritrea as separate from Ethiopia.--Quisqualis (talk) 15:03, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 August 2020

Please change 

only the occasional spontaneous palm grove survives, and the only ones to do so are south of the Tropic of Cancer.

to 

only occasional spontaneous palm groves survive, all of them south of the Tropic of Cancer.

The current version is simply a bit wordy. 64.203.187.101 (talk) 12:44, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 13:16, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

massacre des coupes-coupes

More details needed about “massacre des coupes-coupes” November 15, 1917 --49.245.103.70 (talk) 11:07, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Chad was colonized via conquest

For anyone who doubts Chad was specifically colonized in addition to being conquered (these terms are not synonymous), here are a couple academic sources that refer to Chad as having been colonized by the French, or refer to the French as "colonizers":

"Nomadic society, civil war, and the state in Chad": As a consequence [of civil war] many young men took the opportunity to engage in the armed forces of the FROLINAT, they became professional soldiers. This pursues the practice during the French colonization, when many nomads engaged in the police or the army. (p.154)

"Waiting: The Sorcery of Modernity, Transnational Corporations, Oil and Terrorism in Chad": Bagirmi initiated a policy of southern expansion during the reign of its sovereign Mbang Abd el-Kader (1846-1858) that continued throughout the 19th century until stopped in the early years of the 20th century by the French colonizers. (pp. 22-3)

--Pinchme123 (talk) 06:28, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there's any doubt Chad was a French colony, but colonisation is often an extended process, and the word itself has different meanings and implications. Chad was not an empty land into which settlers were sent, it had existing people and political structures. CMD (talk) 06:44, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Your explanation makes no sense. Colonization isn't about moving into empty land; That's "settlement." For something to be a "colony" it must be "colonized." And as for it being an extended process, describing it as "colonisation via conquest" is exactly describing that extended, violent process, ending with colonization. Because "conquer" (and "conquest") do not include in their definition "colonization" as the end result. --Pinchme123 (talk) 06:51, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Please see our article on Colonization, the concept is inherently linked to settlements. As for the proposed phrase "colonisation via conquest", it doesn't really make sense, as evidence by its sparse google hits. CMD (talk) 07:00, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Not sure why you'd point to a Wikipedia article, given WP:NOTSOURCE. Instead, here's an article from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, explaining the nuances of colonialism and colonization: Colonialism is a practice of domination, which involves the subjugation of one people to another. ... The term colony comes from the Latin word colonus, meaning farmer. This root reminds us that the practice of colonialism usually involved the transfer of population to a new territory, where the arrivals lived as permanent settlers while maintaining political allegiance to their country of origin. It goes on to describe at length colonization by European countries of different parts of the world, by force, all of which are examples of colonization of other peoples. It even implicitly holds that colonization is something beyond a mere conquering, when it states, [c]olonialism is not a modern phenomenon. World history is full of examples of one society gradually expanding by incorporating adjacent territory and settling its people on newly conquered territory. Conquer first, colonize after. All of it with existing populations in the area being colonized.
Colonization is the correct term to describe French rule of Chad. If you don't like "France colonised by conquest", I actually agree with you; the sentence should simply read "France colonised", my original suggestion. This phrase was a compromise, since you insisted on referencing the militarism.
--Pinchme123 (talk) 07:12, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Last thing for a while: by the way, even if a Wikipedia article were an acceptable source, the very first sentence of Colonization ends with gaining significant privileges over other inhabitants of the territory by such links. So from even the imperfect source you've provided, colonization is about control of not just land, but the also people who previously inhabited/controlled that land. --Pinchme123 (talk) 07:17, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
That is a helpful source and quote which goes over the link between colonisation and settlement. The source also opens with and goes further into the nuances between colonialism and imperialism, and the common conflation of the two (including the distinction between Algeria and the rest of the scramble for Africa), which is perhaps what is happening here. CMD (talk) 07:30, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
If by what is happening here you mean to imply I am conflating the two, this would be incorrect. In fact, my argument specifically rests on the separability of imperialism from colonization. France built an empire through imperialism. It did so by colonizing already-settled lands in, among other places, present-day Chad, because it moved colonizers there permanently to oversee the colony. These were actions beyond mere conquest (or conquering), because of the additional steps they took to colonize. Thus, Chad was "colonised". In every case where the term "settlement" (or a derivative) is used, it is explicitly in the context of displacement of existing populations, so it isn't at all in the sense of settling an empty locale.
If my assumption is incorrect, and instead we are on the same page, I would appreciate you taking the initiative to revert "conquered" back to my originally-suggested "colonised", since that is the more accurate term.
--Pinchme123 (talk) 07:40, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
France's movement of various overseers to Chad did not happen all at once in 1920. Nor does putting overseers go beyond "mere conquest", it's generally required for any conquest to have any permanence. Switching conquered to colonised is not more accurate, it removes information without adding any and is vaguer, and implies that there was as you note a "displacement of the existing populations" by new settlers, which did not happen in Chad. CMD (talk) 08:06, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Conquered absolutely is less accurate than colonised, but it seems you object to removing conquered entirely, so I suggest "France conquered and colonised the territory by 1920".
At no point before did I claim colonization was fast and under no circumstances is conquered any less vague than colonized (since the concept of conquer/conquest only pertains to military defeat and does not in any way refer to post-defeat subjugation or any other form of rule). But now you strangely seem to want to argue that displacement is necessary? This isn't required; that quote of mine was to explain why it's incorrect to claim colonization can't occur in a place where people already live, as you seemed to have claimed before. Colonization can include displacement, but it isn't necessary. What's necessary is long-term administration by nationals who move to the colonized location, to politically and economically rule the area.
--Pinchme123 (talk) 14:23, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Your proposed wording limits the colonisation to "by 1920", when the administration was a longer ongoing process. It is also unclear what the addition adds, as the current sentences note the conquest, rule, and independence, so it is already clear that France was administering the territory. Regarding conquest, it does not refer to battles, but to acquiring territory. CMD (talk) 14:38, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
My wording accurately describes colonization of Chad, not the entire period of colonial rule. No additional areas were colonized once military operations completed in 1920. Colonial rule of Chad, a separate distinction, continued from the initial French government control - beginning in 1900 - over parts of the area now called Chad until independence of the full area in 1960. From 1900 to 1920, as parts of the country were taken by force, they were added to the colony; the appropriate description of this process is "colonise". But don't take my word for it, I've already linked to two academic articles where experts have referred to Chad as having been colonized by French colonizers. --Pinchme123 (talk) 15:05, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Your first source disagrees, as it refers to the entirety of French rule as the period of colonization. Do you have any sources that state the French colonization of Chad ended in 1920? CMD (talk) 17:06, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
The first source does not disagree and you're baselessly misrepresenting it. It gives no time period for the period it calls "colonization"; it only describes police or army activities by local populations during the period. It states independence was at 1960. It no more "refers to the entirety of French rule as the period of colonization" as it refers to this period as a long-term rock concert. We have a multitude of sources showing the process of acquiring the full colony - aka the "colonization" of - was completed in 1920, no need to find more.
But more importantly, you clearly agree Chad was colonized. At this point your refusal to agree to including the word "colonise" in the lede is WP:IDHT with a dash of pedantism. The phrase "Chad was conquered and colonised by 1920" is clear in context that it is referring to the process of acquiring the colony via colonization and conquest, and is not in any way implying colonial rule ended in 1920 - at least not to a reasonable person.
--Pinchme123 (talk) 17:35, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
My expectation is that police and army activities continued from 1920 to 1960. The formulation you propose is just not really how the word is used. Perhaps it is best to request further opinions on this matter, or other WP:DR steps. CMD (talk) 01:49, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
Your expectation would consitute WP:OR, as the source makes not claim. The "formulation" I propose is exactly how the word is used, as I have scoured looking for examples and cannot find a single instance of "colonised by [date]" or "colonized by [date]" to have ever been used to describe the end of colonial rule, as you claim. Here are a number of examples which show this phrase construction has been used in the way I have suggested: example 1, example 2, example 3 (all these examples were easily found by searching for the phrase "colonised by 1900" as an example). Please provide even one single instance of this word being used in the way you propose it's used. --Pinchme123 (talk) 14:52, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
Police and army activities happening in Chad from 1920 to 1960 is OR? At any rate, I am not suggesting a certain use of the word, I am opposing the replacement of a word with a clear meaning to a broader one with multiple interpretations, as per the Stanford source you provided which discusses the variations in usage within literature. CMD (talk) 16:07, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
Your opposition makes no sense then. The Stanford source makes clear what the concept of colonization is, as an explanation for why it's entirely correct to say Chad was colonized by 1920. It also completely ignores my most recent proposed language, which isn't to replace "conquer," but to append with "conquer and colonise." With this clarification and revelation, your entire position is WP:IDHT. Given your statement here that your opposition is to replacement, I'm going to go ahead and add the additional word. --Pinchme123 (talk) 18:18, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
That addition is redundant and potentially misleading. Per the Stanford source, "The term colonialism is frequently used to describe the settlement of...Algeria...The term imperialism often describes cases in which a foreign government administers a territory without significant settlement; typical examples include the scramble for Africa in the late nineteenth century", and in this case the word adds no additional information while also providing the implication of settlement. I would ask again to consider other WP:DR steps in this regard. CMD (talk) 02:09, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
The addition is not redundant. Your edit summary suggests population movement is needed, it is not. "Conquered" does not include "colonised" and per reliable sources Chad most definitely was colonised; if you think otherwise, provide sources showing it wasn't. You haven't even provided any evidence that no settlement occurred - even if that were crucial to the use of "colonised", which it isn't - yet I have provided multiple sources showing content experts deem Chad to have been colonized. The term very clearly applies and your obstinance here is textbook WP:IDHT. I've now reinstated the term with WP:RS included. I suggest you refrain from edit warring over well-sourced content and instead provide evidence of your own. --Pinchme123 (talk) 03:41, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
Just because an item is potentially sourced does not mean it needs to go into an article. Please see WP:ONUS. That Chad was a colony is quite clear through the article and existing text. CMD (talk) 05:15, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
How many times are you going to change your reasoning? It isn't "potentially sourced," it's sourced. And it contributes positively to the article. --Pinchme123 (talk) 05:27, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
I've listed this for a third opinion. --Pinchme123 (talk) 05:39, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

3O Response: This disagreement is about adding the underlined portion to the following statement in the article's lead: France conquered and colonised the territory by 1920 and incorporated it as part of French Equatorial Africa. It seems redundant to me, It is clear to me (without the underlined portion) that Chad becomes a French colony. The proposer has stated above For something to be a "colony" it must be "colonized." thus the colonization can be assumed. The lead should be succinct and we should try to remove any superfluous phrasing where possible. So I would say to not bother with the "and colonised". There also seems to be a suggestion of stating colonised in place of conquered, but I feel that conquered is more specific and works better with the 1920 date. This is a non-binding third opinion, but I hope it helps! –  Reidgreg (talk) 11:54, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Revival

Hello Wikipedia, I want lead calls to revive Chad's portal; see here please.Bye.Bokoharamwatch (talk) 18:40, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

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