Talk:Cesare Pugni

Finished!

After much editing, research, etc. I have finally finished this article - however it will take some time before I can compile a list of Pugni's works - if there is anyone who can help please send me a message!

--Mrlopez2681 01:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Rmrfstar's edit

In the opening I changed orchestrator to composer - Pugni was the composer of these operas, not the orchestrator - orchestrator would would mean he was merely the creator of the orchestral parts. I made a few little changes, which had nothing to do with your edit. But other than that, Bravo Rmrfstar!

Regarding the 4 or so 'citation needed', heres is the source for all of the ones in the article so far -

Cesare Pugni by Ivor Guest. Published in Dance Gazette, February 1979, no.1, pp. 22-24

--Mrlopez2681 07:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I greatly appreciate your appreciation, and am glad that you found those errors of mine (when you wrote "scored", I was confused). I shall tonight continue the copyediting of this article and the others, and insert that source as an inline citation. -- Rmrfstar 12:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Pugni's Marriage

I forgot to mention that I have never been able to find any info on when the young Pugni was married and when his children were born.

He was with 3 woman, as is known, throughout his life (that is, at seperate times, not at once!!). His first wife, whom Pugni obviously married when he was a young man in Italy, is only referred to as Signora Pugni in any of my sources, Dates of a wedding, and even her name are not given. As he would do in his relationships later on in life, Pugni had a large brood with his first wife - however I have yet to encounter any information on any of Pugni's childen (he likely had about 30 of them) excerpt for a couple. It seems that when he relocated to London he might have abandoned his family, for he went alone, and not long after he married a woman named Marion Linton, with whom he had a large family. When he left to Russia he went alone again, perhaps abandoning this brood as well. In Russia he began a relationship with a Serf woman named Daria Petrovna, whom he never married, and had 8 childen, a few of which became ballet dancers.

Mrlopez2681 01:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Is there anyway we can put this into the article... and sourced? -- Rmrfstar 03:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

New Edit

Again, thank you Rmrfstar for you edits to the article

I do feel however that some of the headlines could be changed -

1. Failure in Paris. What was the failure? There is the matter between him and Bellini, but is that a failure?
2. Revival in London. What was the revival? No previous works of his were revived during his time in London...unless of course you mean the revival of his career. Maybe Success in London?
3. Decline in Russia. Pugni's first years in Russia were anything but a decline, and the four paragraphs of that section do not speak of a decline. However the headline of the next section, Later Life, definately describes a decline.
4. Legacy. I feel that this is perhaps a better headline for the The Music of Pugni section - perhaps Pugni's Music and Legacy, or something along those lines? The Legacy section merely speaks of his children and their offspring.

Now, is the re-arrangement of the photos, etc. a work in progress? I re-arranged them only slightly, as one of the photos (of Fanny Cerrito in "Catarina") was to close to the other, and was causing a large empty space. I do like that some of them are now on the right (I guess I went a little to "interior design" on the layout) but should we have all of them right aligned?

Regarding his wives, the only place I have ever seen this discussed is again Ivor Guest's 1979 article Cesare Pugni for Dance Gazette.

Now for some citations -

1. in the Revival in London section, quote ...at some point not long after this move to London, Pugni married his second wife Marion (or Mary Ann) Linton. I put this in myself.
2. in the Perrot section, quote - the public and critics marveled at how fresh and new both choreographically and musically each spectacle was. Perhaps for this a rewording is in order. This was more my own asessment after reading many enthusiatic reviews of the ballets Perrot and Pugni put on at Her Majesty's Theatre in the 1840s.
3. for the quote in Later Life, "I tearfully ask you to send some money; I am without a penny". The letter also included freshly composed sections for Petipa's upcoming ballet The Blue Dahlia. - Guest, Ivor Forbes (1981) "Letters from a Balletmaster - The Correspondence of Arthur Saint-Léon", Dance Horizons, pp. 140. By the way, I fixed this quote and changed penny to sou, which is the accurate quote.
4. for the other quote in Later Life, Pugni has nearly died. He was found in the woods 16 versts from... this is also "Letters from a Balletmaster - The Correspondence of Arthur Saint-Léon", pp. 111-112

I have a quistion about this -

“ "I tearfully ask you to send some money; I am without a sou". The letter also included freshly composed sections for Petipa's upcoming ballet The Blue Dahlia. ”

being that this not only contains a quote but also the statement wich follows it (which is relevant to the quote), should not the actual quote be in italics or something?

--Mrlopez2681 03:22, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

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References

It seems that the reference to "Sidney-Fryer, Donald, The Case of the Light Fantastic Toe: The Romantic Ballet and Signor Maestro Cesare Pugni, and all the in-line references to Sidney-Fryer are to an unpublished work that is nowhere near finished. I understand that it is just boxes of materials that the author is working on. These references should all be deleted. Has anyone checked to see if the other references are legit? -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course the references are legit - why else would I have put them up? Mr Sidney-Fryer is one of my closest and dearest freinds. I have the entire manuscript, and it is certainly not just boxes of materials. Mr Sidney-Fryer is done with the manuscript, but Monsieur will not go near a computer, and it has fallen to me to scan all 4,215 pages of it. I am also adding parts to it here and there, but this is only concerning the history of certain ballets. There is no "easily accessible" source on Pugni in existence.

--Mrlopez2681 (talk) 09:37, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think ssilvers was trying to impune your motives, or indeed Mr Sydney-Fryer's scholarship. Merely that it creates problems with the wikipedia policy of verifiability. The work is not available for independent verification until it is published - when, of course, it would also be peer reviewed. In the meantime, it would be preferable that his conclusions be referenced back to the original published sources. Although, when his book does become published it would be a perfectly acceptable reference for these purposes. Kbthompson (talk) 12:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the message on my talk page, Mrlopez. Wikipedia does not permit reference to unpublished works unless they are widely available at research libraries. As Kbthompson indicated, see WP:V. My question above is whether all of your other listed references are published? If so, please add dates where they are missing in the References list. Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

well, if you feel like removing them, knock yourself out. --Mrlopez2681 (talk) 23:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Why not add dates to the references you have listed? -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Whoa, hope I didnt sound - I mean I hope that didnt read - to rudely. Dates? what do you mean? --Mrlopez2681 (talk) 05:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

These references need to show the year when they were published and the name of the publisher:

• Beaumont, Cyril W. Complete Book of Ballets.
• Guest, Ivor Forbes. "Cesare Pugni: A Plea For Justice". Published in Dance Research - Vol. 1, no. 1, pp. 30-38
• Guest, Ivor Forbes, ed. Letters from a Balletmaster - The Correspondence of Arthur Saint-Léon
• Wiley, Roland John, ed. and translator. A Century of Russian Ballet: Documents and Eyewitness Accounts 1810-1910.

-- Ssilvers (talk) 06:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is a B article; it could give some more space to his non-ballet works, and there is little background on his first wife. My full review (with additional comments) is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 20:12, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Cesare Pugni/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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==Composers Project Assessment of Cesare Pugni: 2009-02-23== This is an assessment of article Cesare Pugni by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? ok ===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? When does he meet first wife, get married, have children? More on non-ballet music? ===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? More on non-ballet music? ===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. ok; should be in separate article. ===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? ok ===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) Images; no sound. ===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article has references; no inline citations. ===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) ok ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== Images and media may have copyright/fair-use issues (WP:IUP or more specific GA/FA criteria) ===Summary=== This is a good, fairly comprehensive treatment of the man's life and work. It slips in only just barely mentioning his first wife; no indication is given of when and how they met, married, or had children. His non-ballet compositions get extremely limited coverage, yet the list given is quite respectable; can we have more coverage of that? The article, while well-sourced, does not contain inline citations; a bar to WP's formal review processes. Also problematic may be the claimed fair use of copyrighted images from recent ballet productions; I am not a copyright expert, but I suspect these to be on shaky ground, something a formal review will question. Article is B-class; could use some work. Magic♪piano 20:06, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 20:06, 23 February 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 11:11, 29 April 2016 (UTC)