Talk:Centre for Equal Opportunities and Opposition to Racism

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Weasel words

"Proponents of free speech" - "political inquisition" - "suppressing alternative political views"

Don't you mean that the Vlaams Belang protest against not being allowed to spread racism ? --LucVerhelst 08:59, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't feel that we can generalize and call Matthias Storme a "proponent of free speech", just because one fringe think tank has given him a price. Do you have other references ?

I re-added the weasel-tag because of this.--LucVerhelst 15:32, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-discrimination law

Do we have to include the sentence on Storme fighting the anti-discrimination law. It gives undue weight to this one person criticising the centre. --LucVerhelst 15:32, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to find some more details on the ruling of the Constitutional Court in order to enhance that section.--Ganchelkas 16:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I found the ruling and read it, but it's not related to the Centre in any way whatsoever, so I suggest moving that bit to a new article on the Belgian anti-discrimination law or removing it altogether.--Ganchelkas 16:12, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is background to the sentence before that, of the Storme criticism. Intangible 16:19, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But is it related to his criticism of the Centre? --Ganchelkas 16:21, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, because according to Storme they are both surpressing freedom of speech. Intangible 16:30, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I still think it belongs in a separate article, also the sentence in question gives the impression that the Constitutional Court agrees with him, which isn't the case. --Ganchelkas 16:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV

I've added the NPOV template in the "criticism" section of the article.

The section gives undue weight to criticisms by a fringe think tank and its supporters.
As mentioned above, the part about Matthias Storme fighting the anti-discrimination law is irrelevant, and gives to much weight to a minority point of view.

I have tried to copy edit the article, attempting twice to find a middle ground, but my efforts have been reverted without much ado. --LucVerhelst 21:51, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Both Matthias Storme and Nova Civitas have already English language articles! I'm not sure what you mean with minority point of view here. If you think other proponents of free speech find fault with Storm's critique then by all means include it as well. Intangible 22:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nova Civitas is a very small group of Belgian neo cons. They are likely to have an English language article, given their opinions on the European vs the American way of life.

I don't see any criticism from main stream proponents of free speech, like the "Arkprijs van het Vrije Woord" or the "Humanistisch Verbond", just to name two. --LucVerhelst 22:36, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, but they only defend a certain way of speech, don't they? For example, the Dutch Humanistisch Verbond took part in the appeal against Khalil el-Moumni. The Belgian organizations are not really politically active, are they? Intangible 22:33, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the Dutch Humanistisch Verbond is a separate organisation from the Belgian Humanistisch Verbond.

The Arkprijs went to Paula Dhondt for her anti-racism work. What do you mean, not politically active? --LucVerhelst 04:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Storme, supporter of Vlaams Belang

Matthias Storme is verifiably a supporter of the Vlaams Blok/Vlaams Belang : "V.B. floor leaders Gerolf Annemans (MP) and Philip Claeys (MEP) stressed the good relationship between Matthias Storme and their party. Philip Claeys: "They don't have to vote for us, but each in their area of expertise proclaim ideas that are similar to ours. Only that way we can show that we are not isolated. (...) It's important that people see that our party alsoThe Centre has relations with the academic world, and with people with responsibilities in society."(in Dutch) "De ketchup van het Vlaams Belang"("Vlaams Belang's ketchup"), Knack, 17 November 2004 (subscription needed) - (in Dutch) "De neoconservatieve mosterd van Gerolf Annemans en Philip Dewinter" ("The neoconservative mustard of Gerolf Annemans and Philip Dewinter"), De Morgen, 17 November 2004."

Any criticism by him on the CEOOR (one of the organisations that brought the Vlaams Blok to trial, leading to the conviction of the party) should make note of this, in order to give the reader the ful truth. We would be hiding important information if we didnit. The version, as reverted by Intangible, is POV. --LucVerhelst 16:32, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The full truth? Storme signed a declaration in 2004 together with the N-VA party board that called for people to vote for the CD&V - N-VA cartel, after his declaration that it is almost a moral obligation to vote for the VB. But this all very irrelevant to this article. Intangible 16:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My point : you are disguising Storme as a "proponent of free speech", while he is just carrying propaganda for the Vlaams Belang. The man has a clear agenda, and "free speech" plays only a minor role in it : in as much it serves the Vlaams Belang cause.--LucVerhelst 16:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agenda? If you want to say in this article that Storme is a conservative go ahead. But there is no "conspiracy" here. Is his partaking [1] at an academic seminar also part of the "conspiracy"? Intangible 17:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please read his paper, put it next to the Vlaams Belang program and propaganda, and try and find some differences. --LucVerhelst 17:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Or put it next to the VLD programme, and play the same game. As if the VB has a monopoly on academic freedom or freedom of speech! Intangible 17:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"The answer to the question, whether there legally is freedom of speech in this country, to my opinion clearly is No". I don't think this agrees with the VLD programme. As doesn't a large part of the paper. It's clear (and verifiable) that Storme is a supporter of the Vlaams Belang, carrying propaganda for the Vlaams Belang. You are disguising him however as a "proponent of free speech". That is not correct, and clearly POV. --LucVerhelst 19:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure Storme isn't spreading neoliberal propaganda by accepting a prize from Nova Civitas, handed out by VLD member Boudewijn Bouckaert? Intangible 21:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, while writing the party platform, Vlaams Belang party leaders were inspired by the ideas of the American neoconservatives. ((in Dutch) "De neoconservatieve mosterd van Gerolf Annemans en Philip Dewinter" ("The neoconservative mustard of Gerolf Annemans and Philip Dewinter"), De Morgen, 17 November 2004.)

So, maybe he is. All -objectively- in favor of the Vlaams Belang. --LucVerhelst 21:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I already explained, this was a bad piece of writing, confusing all kinds of different political thinking under one heading "neoconservatism." Intangible 22:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gerolf Annemans doesn't agree with you. Next time I see him, I'll tell him he's got it all wrong. Obviously, you know better than he does what he thinks. --LucVerhelst 22:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and so does Wikipedia. Or are trying to suggest a merger of the neoconservatism article with that of paleoconservatism and neoliberalism? Intangible 22:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why ? Would that benefit in any way the CEOOR article ? --LucVerhelst 12:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No it would help your argument. Isn't Boudewijn Bouckaert supposed to be a Vlaams Belang supporter as well by your logic? Intangible 15:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So ?--LucVerhelst 16:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Continued

Your argument seems irrational. Both Bouckaert and Storme sat in the board of other political parties and remain members of those. Intangible 17:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So ? --LucVerhelst 17:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thus far, you didn't provide any arguments against the verifiable fact that Storme is identified as a Vlaams Belang supporter. --LucVerhelst 17:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Where? Nothing to be found in the Knack or De Morgen that says Storme is a VB supporter. Intangible 18:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Ook Vlaanderen heeft een aantal conservatieve denkers ... . Maar weinigen willen zich openlijk verbinden met het Vlaams Blok/Vlaams Belang. Een van hen is jurist en hoogleraar aan de KU Leuven en Universiteit Antwerpen Matthias Storme..."

"Flanders too has a number of conservative thinkers ... . Only a few of them openly want to connect themselves to the Vlaams Blok/Vlaams Belang. One of them is lawyer and professor at the KU Leuven and University of Antwerp Matthias Storme...". ((in Dutch) "De ketchup van het Vlaams Belang"("Vlaams Belang's ketchup"), Knack, 17 November 2004 (subscription needed))

A verifiable fact, as I said.

So please revert the article back. --LucVerhelst 18:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again. If Storme would be a VB supporter, he would not be a member of N-VA. The Knack article states that Storme "de boot wat af houdt". "Verbinden" is utterly vague. Intangible 18:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Matthias Storme houdt officieel de boot wat af"

"Matthias Storme officially keeps some distance". Note the use of the word 'officially' in this well reputed magazine...

"Verbinden" - "Connect" may be vague, but it is even stronger than "Support". You can support a party, while not really being connected to it.

And please read WP:V. --LucVerhelst 18:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, you forgot to say that Storme talks about 'koetjes en kalfjes' with Annemans. A magazine that talks about Jefferson and the CATO Institute as being part of a neoconservative ketchup or mustard, is just laughable at best. Intangible 18:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eh ?

Did you read the article ?

And WP:V ? --LucVerhelst 18:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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