Talk:Cecil Middleton

Peter Middleton

In short, so what? It doesn't matter whom Peter flew an airplane with. It doesn't matter who attended his funeral, because your source doesn't say they interacted at uni. It doesn't even say they were there at the same time, only that they were there in the same decade. He was also at uni in the same decade as MPs, probably even prime ministers, cabinet secretaries, actors, business men, and on and on and on. yawn. This is just trivia. The same applies to growing up in the same city. Leeds is not exactly an isolated village with a dozen residents. A whole lot of people grew up in Leeds, including, I am sure, a bunch of other people who were grandparents of notable people. It is so vague as to be uninformative. There is simply no reason to mention distant relatives here, just because one of them married well. Agricolae (talk) 12:27, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

You misunderstand. It is Capt. Peter Middleton - Kate Middleton's grandfather - who flew planes in 1962 alongside Prince Philip. There is British Pathe footage and photos of the Prince and Capt. Middleton together. This information/photos appeared in the UK Daily Telegraph, the UK Times (Obituary of Peter Middleton in 2010) and other UK national newspapers (and internationally.

Oh, I didn't misunderstand it at all, I just find it not one bit as fascinating as you seem to. Do we understand a cricketer better by knowing that he had a cousin who flew a plane with someone famous? No. Do we understand a cricketer better by knowing that he had a cousin who was photographed with someone famous? No. Do we understand a cricketer better by knowing that he had a cousin whose obituary appeared in the Times? No, not in the least. This is not a genealogy web site, and this is not a society page, so unless you have an independent biographical account of Cecil that is as fascinated by this particular relationship as you are, I see no reason to clutter up the article with irrelevant lists of cousins who knew important people. Agricolae (talk) 02:22, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Peter Middleton's father was Richard Noel Middleton whose family law firm in Leeds, "Messrs. Middleton and Co.", was where his cousin Ralph Middleton worked as a solicitor.

Cecil Middleton is Ralph Middleton's brother.

It is proven that the cousins (naturally!!!) not only knew each other, but worked/relaxed/studied together in Leeds. Ralph Middleton and Kate's grt-grandfather Richard Noel Middleton were both members of the Yorkshire Ramblers' Club. Cecil Middleton and Peter Middleton (son of Richard Noel Middleton who knew Ralph Middleton well as we have seen) were up at Oxford in the 1930s. Ralph Middleton and his cousin Peter Middleton both lived on the same housing estate in Leeds; the "Alwoodley Garden/Park Estate".

Kate Middleton's uncle is Richard Middleton (who attended his niece's 2011 wedding, so yes, she knows him. We know that Kate knows her first cousin Adam Middleton (son of her uncle Richard Middleton) as she chose Adam to be godfather to HRH Prince George, Kate Middleton's eldest child.

Richard Middleton (Kate Middleton's uncle) compiled in 2014 a genealogical history on-line of his cousin Cecil Middleton's grt-grandfather who is the Rev. Andrew Bloxam, nephew of painter Sir Thomas Lawrence and grandfather of Jane Dorothy Middleton, nee Berney (died 1964).

Please accept all of the evidence stating that the Middleton cousins of Leeds all knew each other very well. Thanks 175.33.49.35 (talk) 01:04, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

I see no point in any of this. What possible relevance could it have to this article that Kate Middleton knows Adam Middleton? I don't care if Cecil and Peter they knew each other well - we are not in the habit of listing all of a subject's acquaintances, not without a source that paints the relationship as an important aspect of the subject's biography. You can draw all of the six-degrees-of-separation chains of people knowing other people you want and it makes none of this interesting, let alone noteworthy. This is a biography about a cricketer, one who wasn't more or less likely to send a ball to the boundary because a first cousin flew planes with someone important, or because that first-cousin's granddaughter knew her uncle's son. Agricolae (talk) 02:22, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

You and I both know that this article should state:

Cecil Middleton was a member of the Middleton family of Leeds.

There are many articles/newsreports/archives to support this statement - including the research of Kate Middleton's uncle - that Cecil Middleton knew Kate's family very well. Shall you do this or shall I? 175.33.49.35 (talk) 03:23, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

No, we don't both know this. It shouldn't. And by the way, the self-published papers of Richard Middleton are not a reliable source, as defined by Wikipedia. See WP:NOTGENEALOGY - this is not a venue to publish family history for its own sake. We learn nothing useful about Cecil by reading that a quarter century after this guy died, a cousin multiple times removed made a good marriage. Agricolae (talk) 04:53, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

The bigger problem here is that this whole exercise in trying to create a full-length biography about an obscure cricketer who only ever received passing mention anywhere is bound to create a mess, stuffed full of whatever obscure facts any particular editor takes a fancy to. He shouldn't even have an article. Agricolae (talk) 05:16, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Calm down! - no one is trying to, as you say, "create a full-length biography about an obscure cricketer". (???)

Umm, that is the purpose of having a page - to give a full-length biography for its subject, who is an obscure cricketer. The very existence of the page demonstrates exactly what I said. Agricolae (talk) 15:31, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

You say, "We learn nothing useful about Cecil by reading that a quarter century after this guy died, a cousin multiple times removed made a good marriage". (???) This make no sense. My most recent edit does not mention any "good marriages" or any names. I simply state that he is a member of the Middleton family of Leeds who have their own Wikipedia page - hence the link. It all makes sense. Cheers 175.33.49.35 (talk) 05:42, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

You are the one who keeps talking about Kate and her uncle here. What you should be asking is what exactly is the secondary source that gives Cecil the kind of substantial coverage that justifies a page at all? A self-published family history written by a cousin is not a WP:RS, and passing mention in a photograph caption on a library web page really doesn't cut it either. We need a true reliable source about the subject or it is all just personal opinion what does and does not belong. Agricolae (talk) 15:31, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Just to emphasize something, this person's claim to notability is that he (supposedly) was a notable cricketeer. Do we say that Alastair Cook belonged to the "Cook family of Gloucester"? No. And we don't say Joe Root was of the "Roots of Dore", nor that Jonny Bairstow was of the "Bairstows of Bradford". We don't name the "Andersons of Burnley", "Woakes of Birmingham", "Broads of Nottingham" (or wherever his family originated), "Pietersens of Pietermaritzburg", nor "Gowers of Dar es Salaam". This is not an article about someone notable as a holder of some inherited dignity where family dynastic membership is arguably a noteworthy aspect, it is about a cricket player, for which it is not. Agricolae (talk) 19:46, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

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