Talk:Catholic Church in Vietnam/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Catholic Church in Vietnam. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

North vs. South

Were/are there historically more Catholics per capita in the North (Hanoi area) or the South (Ho Chi Minh City area)? Badagnani 02:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

At present both in Hanoi and Saigon (plus central cities) are concentrated the majority of catholics.Ans-mo 11:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Missing informration

The article neglects to mention the period of French colonialism and the rule of Ngo Dinh Diem, which saw the rise of the Catholic minority at the expense of the Buddhist majority. DHN (talk) 21:42, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

This article is seriously one-sided and doesn't include Catholic priests fomenting uprisings and all teh Diem era. And all the POV tone improted from Catholic Wikipedia as well. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 01:11, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Catholic Encyclopedia is the only reliable source on the history of Roman Catholicism in Vietnam before 1913. Its style sometimes is one-sided (which could be edited), but the accuracy of presented facts and figures can not be refuted. Except some small style edits, I dont see the necessity to change the reliable factual data.Ans-mo (talk) 08:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Um, no it isn't. Heaps of history texts mention various activities of Catholics before 1913. This article is a farce, as are many Catholic articles on Wikipedia. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:09, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

AsiaNet is also a Catholic activist website, and the articles are written by Catholic priests, eg Ngo Quang Kiet. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:12, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

YellowMonkey, the rules of Wikipedia require neutrality, but not propagating pro-catholic or anti-catholic prejudice. Such accusations as "farce" or any else should be proved with facts and references. It is natural, that the main sources about Roman Catholicism in Vietnam are Roman Catholic sources. Please avoid groundless estimations and accusations.Ans-mo (talk) 06:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Nothing doing. Your only sources are the Catholic Encyclopedia, which is written to serve the RCC, and Asia News which is written by PIME, a missionary organisation. Secondly Diem, dedicated South Vietnam to Catholicism, enacted anti-Buddhist laws and gave special treatment to Catholics. It is relevant. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 01:15, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Catholic Encyclopedia presents the history of Catholic Church before 1913, and is one of the few (or only) detailed sources on Roman Catholicism of that period (not later period of Diem). The policies of Diem are not connected with the official position of Roman Catholic Church. The fact, that Diem was a catholic, does not mean, that his policies had been approved or directed by Roman Catholic Church.Ans-mo (talk) 07:20, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't really have a horse in this race (no vested interest), and I take your point, (see below) that there are no other sources (or perhaps they are hard to find) but I can plainly see that the part of your reply, Ans-mo, that begins with "The policies of Diem" is a bald assertion, without example, and the part that begins with "The fact, that Diem" is more or less a truism that does not address Yellow's arguments, leaving a middle ground between it and what the discussion was previously.

Not that this makes Yellow's arguments valid, necessarily. After the useful suggestion that the article include more info on french colonialism, his only argument appears to be that the material is biased because it relies on partisan sources. If that is the case, only the Partisan tag should be on the article, not the PoV tag.
There seems to be a bit of a disputed area within the rules of PoV where the inclusion of PoV material is, or is not, considered to be in itself PoV. The argument for it being PoV is fairly straightforward if a little narrow; the info is PoV therefore it makes the article PoV. The argument against including PoV material being PoV is that if the material is verifiable and thus includable, and the potential bias of the source can be clearly seen, merely including it is not itself PoV; people can make up their own minds about it. I apologize if that does not seem to make sense; I know that I have heard it expressed better. The only resolution would seem to be to include material from both sides, and here it is said to be impossible to find nonpartisan information. I say this because I fear that the article may be deleted; I think it is fine the way it is, with what material can be found, and a Partisan tag on it, until such time as nonpartisan information can be found. Anarchangel (talk) 04:15, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Massive blanking

This massive, unwarranted, unilateral blanking, conducted without prior consensus, is unwarranted. Please restore, then discuss here. Badagnani (talk) 16:26, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The blanking (already restored) was related to newly inserted passages, that were irrelevant to the topic of the article. The article is about Roman Catholicism, but not about politics, religion or buddhism in Vietnam.Ans-mo (talk) 07:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Undue weight on Diem. Half the article is on his policies, which needs to be corrected. Benkenobi18 (talk) 07:20, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Usable source

http://books.google.com/books?id=kRi_BKq60OgC&pg=PA90&dq=Religion+Vietnam+Catholic&lr=#PPA88,M1

It's a good source, neutral tone, and published outside Vietnam. You editors might use it to improve the article. Thanks--Amore Mio (talk) 14:18, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Anti-catholicism

Slowly but effectively anti-Catholicism become strong in this article based on the anti-Catholic "discussion" among Vietnamese members of Wikipedia. Stop POVing the article with your anti-Catholic hateress. --DumnyPolak (talk) 17:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Incomplete References

The References for the article are in very poor shape, with some citations not listing the complete source. It makes it impossible to know what the sources are, and therefore how reliable they are. If someone has the complete citations, please put them in. Otherwise, they should be removed, and possible so should the claims that rely on them. --anietor (talk) 00:28, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

As noted, the citations are not complete in this article. I'm wondering if perhaps there used to be better references, but somewhere in the editing they weren't properly maintained and got chopped down. For example, "Gettleman, pp. 275–76, 366" is not a complete reference, since there is no prior reference to who Gettleman is or what article/source is being referenced. If someone has the complete cites, feel free to insert. I've spent a good hour going through the edit history and can't find a point where several references may have once been more complete, so perhaps they were originally inserted in this choppy way. Until then, however, the material needs to be considered unsourced. Please do not reinsert material about the influence of catholics in "South Vietnam", discrimination against Buddhists (even relevant in this article?), etc. until there is a proper cite for it. --anietor (talk) 14:43, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Unbalanced

I agree with some of the comments above about this article being unbalanced. The material covers 500 years of history, so having almost 1/2 the article discuss Diem and that era is a case of recentism. Also, the references to discrimination against Buddhists during that specific period is out of place and is given undue weight...in fact this article has more about that than the actual Buddhism in Vietnam article! We need to trim and edit big time. --anietor (talk) 02:06, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Most of the information about South Vietnam is irrelevant for the topic of the article, which should be about Roman Catholicism, but not about politics or different politicians. Here we see an example, when several (or two) users propagate their POV anti-catholic statements (based on unproven claims), just because some of them are more experienced in technical issues of Wikipedia.Ans-mo (talk) 07:24, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Added Bibliography

Recently added bibliography has little connection with the topic of the article "Roman Catholicism" and covers only one period of time. It contains politics, news, but not a substantial scientific research on Roman Catholicism.Ans-mo (talk) 15:05, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

The references of this article uses Harvard referencing system format (ex. Buttinger, p. 993.) but there is no bibliography sector. Therefore, all references are void.

This is the reason that made me added this bibliography sector, feel free to remove any unrelated book or wait for YellowMonkey (the editor who wrote most of Roman Catholicism in South Vietnam (1954–1975) sector) fix it.

Sorry for my terrible English skill.--Amore Mio (talk) 16:19, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Yet another suggestion

Perhaps we could reference the time periods known as the "Colonial" and "Imperial" eras in our world history to get a better overall view of institutionalized religion's role of those aforementioned periods which should be highly relevant to Catholicism in Vietnam. For the sake of objectivity, there should be no shame in posting a more complete history. True spirituality is not affected by such blemishes. Only with hopeless censorship that we allow our spiritual regression. When anyone who is in fact being an objective contributor then he/she would have better claim on what's anti-this or anti-that. I wish you all the best of luck to resolve this matter so that we may all enjoy the wealth of knowledge have to offer--so that we may all move on forward. Thank, you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.57.168.144 (talk) 04:18, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Catholics killed during Persecutions

http://books.google.com/books?id=QMUCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA225#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=OAxPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=mmYAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA151#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=RH-GGO2aLoUC&pg=PA61#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=HH2NMvjcgygC&pg=PA124#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=l-pwoTFp31kC&pg=PA585#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=4JxFLzOm6HkC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 04:35, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

1874 scholar's rising against French and Catholics - "PACIFY THE WESTERNERS AND MASSACRE THE HERETICS!" The Scholars' Rising in Central Vietnam, 1874 Mark W. McLeod Crossroads: An Interdisciplinary Journal of Southeast Asian Studies Vol. 11, No. 2 (1997), pp. 35-71 Published by: Northern Illinois University Center for Southeast Asian Studies Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/40860625 Rajmaan (talk) 21:49, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

User:Rajmaan, Thanks, is it proposed to add these? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:26, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 2 October 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Procedural close per WP:MULTI. Follow-up instead at Talk:Roman Catholicism in Armenia#Requested move 2 October 2016. (non-admin closure) — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 00:42, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Roman Catholicism in Vietnam → Catholic Church in Vietnam – In consistancy with other equivalent articles, including Catholic Church, Catholic Church in England and Wales, Catholic Church in the United States, etc. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:55, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move discussion in progress

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Dispute in South Vietnam section

This section is heavily relying on the Orthodox school of Vietnam War history. Perspectives from Revisionist and Vietnam-centric schools are much needed. Greenknight dv (talk) 20:58, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Draft:Catholicism and the Vietnamese Government

Please consider incorporating material from the above draft submission into this article. Drafts are eligible for deletion after 6 months of inactivity. ~Kvng (talk) 16:58, 22 January 2021 (UTC)