Talk:Catholic Church (disambiguation)

Proposed compromise

This page is proposed as a disambiguation link for the Roman Catholic Church article as a compromise to an ongoing debate.[1] It is a copy of the 1 April 2006 version of Catholic Church [2] --WikiCats 12:41, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

This page

Does this page serve any purpose that the current page at Catholic would not serve equally well or better? TSP 17:06, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Disambiguation?

Anyone looking up Catholic Church is going to be looking for the church which has preserved its ancient communion with Rome. This is how the English language is actually used.

It is perfectly clear that other Churches understand themselves as Catholic in the theological sense of the term. But one person say I'm Catholic no one responds "Oh, do you mean Anglican, Orthodox, Lutheran, Oriental Orthodox or Roman?" That would be absurd.

Disambiguation is about naming not theology. Ironically, the Churches which really could be confused with the Catholic Church and therefore should be on this disambiguation page have been left out: Polish National Catholic Church, Liberal Catholic Church, United Catholic Church, etc.

The intentional blurring of theological categories and instituional names on WP appears to be a shameless attempt to divert readers away from articles pertaining to the one institution actually called the Catholic Church.

For further clarification on the common use of the English language please see the following link: CC vs. RCC

Vaquero100 19:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it is ethnocentric to assume the whole world responds the same way as you to the word "Catholic". We need to include all worldviews, say saying something in your culture is "absurd" does not mean that it is like that everywhere. Furthermore, it is extremely biased to say Catholic is the PROPER name for the RCC, where the other Catholic churches are simply self identifying. They all are selfidentifying. I feel the earlier edits are much less biased. Furthermore, the recent addition of the word "ancient" only makes matters worse.--Andrew c 22:03, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Andrew, you are confusing a whole lot of things here. First, as you know from my note to you that we are not of different cultures (unless you are a foreign student). Secondly, WP disambiguation pages are to help readers find similarly named articles and understand the differences. They are not meant to be articles in themselves. Thirdly, all of the Churches presently named in the article with the exception of the Catholic Church have names (and WP page names) which could not possibly be confused with the Catholic Church. Fourthly, saying things like "The Catholic Churches of the Lutheran tradition" will only confuse general readers who are looking for the Catholic Church. And, yes, considering the purpose of a WP disambiguation page, this is not only absurd but intentionally deceitful. Fifthly, in all their eagerness to assert their theological Catholicity (which I have no objection to) the editors of this page have left out all the Churches which by name may be confused with the "Catholic Church." This is anti-intellectual treatury and deceit.

Vaquero100 23:25, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps there are too many words on both sides. As Vaquero100 says, this is a disambiguation page, a pointer, which is not intended to be an encylopaedic coverage of the subject matter. I believe that this disambiguation can be reduced to three things with a simple header:

The word catholic means universal, and many churches claim catholicity without neccesarily using the word in their official name. Thus, Catholic Church can mean:

• The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church — the theological model of a unitary, worldwide church
• The Roman Catholic Church — the most widely named Catholic Church
• See Christian denominations and the list of Christian denominations for other church groupings, some who use the word catholic in their official names (like the Old Catholic Church, some who use it in secondary names (like in Eastern Orthodoxy) and others who believe themselves to be catholic but do not use the word in their titles (like in Lutheranism).

Would this not be so much more simple? — Gareth Hughes 07:46, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Might also be worth linking to either Catholic or Catholicism (I'm still utterly unsure what the difference between the two is meant to be) for an examination of the different meanings that have been attached to the term in Christianity.

As a further alternative, we could just delete this page and use Catholic instead; that page currently seems to me to fulfil the purpose this page is meant to fulfil better than this one does. TSP 11:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems like Catholic and this page overlap. This page seems too wordy for a disambiguation page. So we could either redirect and merge relevent content that isn't already there, or we could trim down the text of this article per Wikipedia:Disambiguation. As for the culture I come from, that is not relevent to this topic. We are not supposed to edit for a local audience, but instead to a global audience. I think Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias is revelent in determining if everyone identifies the RCC as simply the CC or if that only represents certain cultures (but lets try to keep that discussion on the RCC/Name talk page).--Andrew c 14:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

At the top of this section, Vaquero100 states:

"Anyone looking up Catholic Church is going to be looking for the church which has preserved its ancient communion with Rome. This is how the English language is actually used."

"Anyone"??? Through what omniscience do you take it upon yourself to speak for every human being using en-Wikipedia? Obviously, this is not "how the English language is acutally used", unless somehow you consider Anglicans to not be users of the English language. MishaPan 18:03, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Vaquero100 also says:

"The intentional blurring of theological categories and instituional names on WP appears to be a shameless attempt to divert readers away from articles pertaining to the one institution actually called the Catholic Church."

The only "intentional blurring of theological categories and instituional names on WP" appears to be on the part of those who would try to use WP as a platform for RC propoganda, pretending that the RCC alone has sole proprietorship and usage of the term "Catholic Church". Since there is a link on this disambiguation page to the Roman Catholic Church, who exactly is being "diverted" away from it? MishaPan 18:03, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Merge?

This is a disambiguation page not an article. It is not suitable for a merge into an article. It was created as a compromise to an ongoing debate[3]. I feel that to merge this page would start the whole debate again. --WikiCats 04:38, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

The result of the debate was do not merge. --WikiCats 10:49, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the result of the 'debate' was that two of the labels were unilaterally removed within minutes of being added, so the debate was never really announced. If anyone wants to label and have this debate properly, they shouldn't feel constrained by this. TSP 12:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

self-identity

It seems strange that according to this article, the "Catholic Church" is the "proper" name for the RCC, but other churches only "self-identify" as being the Catholic Church. It is not wikipedia's job to decide what is proper and what is The Truth. To me, it seems like all churches self-identify with whatever they want. One view is not any more "proper" than another. Also, the use of "Self" seems patronizing and diminutive. I would propose simply using the word "identify" across the board. For example. "Catholic Church" is the name with which the Churches in union with the Pope identify. and The Eastern Orthodox Church theologically identifies as "the Catholic Church". Also, to say sometimes called by others the Roman Catholic Church seems false. Google "Roman Catholic Church" and there are a number of Catholic sites that use this term. Therefore it seems false to give the impression that only "others" are the people who use this term. This concern is only minor to me, the bigger issue is the wording issues that seem to favor a POV as outlined above (proper vs. self identity).--Andrew c 20:32, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not at all strange. There is a strong pro-Rome element within Wikipedia. They're the ones who go through trying to rewrite articles on Purgatory to the effect that the Orthodox Church accepts the doctrine, for example. The use of "self-identify" is patronizing and degrading. Dogface 22:09, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the term is being used either in the sense of proper name or of proper noun; though there is debate over to what degree the Church in question regards 'Catholic Church' as a name, and to what degree as a description. TSP 20:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, even if that is the case, because of multiple meanings in the term proper, I still feel my proposal is superior. There may be another word though that would work. I'm just worried that we are painting a picture that shows wikipedia is taking sides on this issue, where I feel we should remain neutral. If the RCC thinks it can properly identify as the CC, so be it. And if the EOC also thinks the same thing, we must present them equally, not in terms that makes one claim seem superior to another.--Andrew c 21:19, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't push your POV versus the common NPOV. What I am concerned is that the Muslims, for example or even Hindu would have misunderstanding because of this minor article. Don't stress so much, there is no big issue here.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.213.79.175 (talk • contribs) 17:45, 28 July 2006.

What POV am I pushing. Explain to me how removing the word "self" could cause a misunderstanding. I think the meaning behind the words "self-identify" and "identify" are pretty close, only as I noted above, there are connotations that come with "self", and I see no reason why different language should be adopted for different denominations. Just leave it as "identify" across the board. How is that POV? (also, registration is free, so I'd personally recommend getting a username)--Andrew c 17:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

"Self-identify" very plainly means "they're not really entitled to use the term "Catholic" for themselves, but they do it, anyway.Dogface 19:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, let's be completely honest here. There is no "debate" about Catholic Church as a proper name. It may also be a theological description, but it is foremost the proper name of the Church. The only debate about this fact is in the minds of Anglicans who hate this fact. However, WP is dedicated to reporting facts without regard to the emotions of Anglicans or anyone else. Vaquero100 13:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The Orthodox Church has as much right to use "Catholic" as do the followers of the Pope of Rome. The use of "self-identify" is an anti-Orthodox smear tactic.Dogface 19:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Farse

This page is a complete farse. Seriously, it is useless. There is nobody out there searching on Catholic Church who is looking for anything but the Church with a pope. Can we just get rid of this damn thing? Vaquero100 13:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I still believe there are ambiguity issues with "Catholic Church". Wikipedia recognizes that the most common usage of the phrase "Catholic Church" is refering to the church in question by having Catholic Church redirect to Roman Catholic Church. The only way someone is going to find this page is if they type in "Catholic Church" and they end up at RCC when they ment another page and they click on the disambig page link at the top of RCC. That is totally inline with policy. If only a very small number of people need this page, so be it, but I still feel it is needed. However, there is always WP:AfD. Take it before the people if you want.--Andrew c 18:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

How this page come to exist is described at the top of this Talk page. It was proposed as a compromise to an a very long debate. Talk:Roman_Catholic_Church/Archive4#Compromise. If you wish to revisit that debate then that is your right. --WikiCats 12:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Not even Muslims or atheists really need this page. Of course this page would confuse them more about the real "catholic church". Only those curious people who wants to know about the churches that claims that they are "catholic church" and some "catholic church" claimants would... probably... need it, so that they would be satisfied by saying that... they are the "catholic church", although they really do not explicitly label themselves as such.

Anyway, this disambiguation page is not following what Wikipedia:Disambiguation says: "Disambiguations are paths leading to different topics that share essentially the same term." Anglican or Lutheran is not the same term as "catholic church". the purpose of disambiguation page is to resolve ambiguous terms not their meanings (although meanings doesn't apply in this disamb page). Category:Disambiguation states that: "Disambiguation in Wikipedia is the process of resolving ambiguity—meaning the conflicts that occur when articles about two or more different topics have the same 'natural' title." Please pay attention to the term, "'natural' title".

Why not delete this useless disambiguation page if disambiguation rules are not followed? There are still terminologies which do not contain the term "Catholic Church" present in this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.213.72.63 (talk) 11:41, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

You can go through the deletion process, if you would like to propose a deletion. I believe you misunderstand what disambiguation pages are used for. Please see MOS:DAB. Disambiguation pages are solely intended to allow users to choose among several Wikipedia articles, usually when a user searches for an ambiguous term. Look at the "school" example. They link to swarm due to the common use of "school of fish", even though the word "school" is not found in the title of the "swarm" article. Similarly, the purpose of this page is to allow users who searched for the term "catholic church" but didn't meant he Roman Catholic Church to find the article they intended to find. Could you perhaps be a bit more specific about your issues? You are welcome to discussed proposed changes here. Thanks.-Andrew c ^[talk] 14:36, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The Catholic Church

• Official Public Record View Image

• The Catholic Church is a Sole Proprietorship founded by Garry Denke, in the County of Collin, the State of Texas, a taxpayer. The Catholic Church owner's nickname is G-D, gar-den. Garry Denke 05:11, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Please Read, Important

People tend to consider Catholic and Christian as two diffrent things. For Example people say I'm Christian not Catholic, are you Catholic or Christian, etc. It needs to be specifcally addressed this issue amongst people. Catholics are Christians and people such as Pentecostals or Evagelical Christians tend to do this as well. Please someone needs to write a article specifcally addressing this issue.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.70.64.206 (talk • contribs) 21:46, 12 August 2006.

Be bold.--WikiCats 02:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

OK.--Garry Denke 05:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation Page format

There don't seem to be any other disambiguation pages that are as long as this one. I propose that we remove all of the content from the Content box down to, but not including the "See also" section. -SynKobiety 13:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

While I know this page was created out of a compromise, and we probably shouldn't stir up trouble here while the big RCC vs CC debate is going on on the main page, I did say months ago that this page "seems too wordy for a disambiguation page." I proposed merging this page with Catholic, and we could just change the note at the top of the RCC page to point to Catholic instead of here. And I feel that something should happen to Catholicism as well, just because it seems like there is a lot of redundent content going across 3 different articles. --Andrew c 20:46, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. As Andrew has said, this page is a compromise on a issue that is highly sensitive to a lot of people. --WikiCats 02:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The term, denomination

This article referred to the Roman Catholic Church as the largest denomination of Christians. Catholicism doesn't refer to itself as a denomination, so the word group would be more appropriate here.

Wikipedia is not a Catholic document, and wikipedia's audience is not exclusively Catholic. I believe strongly that we should be able to use common definitions of words, and that we should be internally consistent. The Christian denomination article says that Catholicism is a denominatioon, but it also uses the term "division" I feel the word group is not that precise. When I think of Christian groups, I think of Christian organizations at universities, or Christian think tanks, I don't think of denominations. In summary, I support the previous wording and oppose the current wording, but would be open to some sort of compromise such as "division". What do you and others think?--Andrew c 17:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Slow edit war

The bold title. Either we bold every church name, or we bold NONE. Bolding just one seems to favor that one. This is glaringly obvious to me. Why on earth would we give preference by bolding only one of the many churches listed on this page? As for identity. People keep inserting terms that are redundent. Can someone explain to me how the current wording is problematic. I made it clear above that the structure should be similar for all church, as not to give preference to one. If one title is a proper name, and the other is simply something that the 'self-identify themselves' with, does that not paint a POV picture, making the title seem more legit for one church, but not another. I feel strongly that wikipedia should not take sides, or do subtle things like this to favor one church or another. What is wrong with how the article is? Can someone justify the changes?--Andrew c 23:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand why people enjoy having problems in their life especially when they make small things a big issue. Why do some people problem small things rather than solving problems that affect their lives? Why do some people, instead of understanding their faith, gives more attention to this article? I think you better delete this article if you don't like what is going on here.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.213.78.119 (talk • contribs) 23:32, 28 November 2006.

Catholic Church

I got here by following the discussion between Catholic and Roman Catholic and found the first line to be misleading. I have changed it to reflect this. Morlesg 22:17, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

What is essential in the definition of the primary concrete meaning of the Catholic Church as understood by Morlesg and me is communion with the Pope. Size is accidental. Whether or not it was larger of smaller than the Eastern Orthodox Church at the time of the Great Schism, it was still the same Church, whatever its size. Talking of its size, which is not essential to its identity, may seem provocative boasting. I think the text as rewritten, keeping the definition first, should overcome Morlesg's fear that there might be some confusion about its identity. The term "Roman Catholic Church" is put last, mainly because of an impression that Morlesg (and others) want to avoid as much as possible using it. Lima 14:41, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Lima I like your rewrite and do not have an issue with taking the discussion about size off this definition. I do not want to rethread the discussion about Catholic Church (with or without Roman) but you are also right in that many would prefer WP to drop the Roman. Leave for another day.

I would like to ask about two other issues

1. The Bishop of Rome is (according to WP) is more commonly known as the Pope. Why are you using the least common name?

2. Why highlight that it’s comprised of 23 autonomous churches? This is bound to confuse the user who gets to this page looking for guidance. So there are 23 of them and we only provide a link to one of them? The Catholic Church is one. Morlesg 23:49, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The autonomous churches are in communion with him as bishop, and not all of them regard him by the colloquialism "Pope." Accuracy should be a virtue in an encyclopedia, and most users will figure things out if they follow the links. Fishhead64 00:08, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

As editors it is our duty to make it easy for users. They should not be made to "figure it out". If that's the case we are not doing our job. In the interest of moving the conversation along check out the way it was done under catholic

In common parlance the term (Catholic) most often refers to the members, beliefs, and practices of the Catholic Church (Roman Catholic Church) that is in full communion with the Pope (Bishop of Rome). It comprises the Latin Rite and twenty-two Eastern Rite Catholic Churches. The Eastern Catholic particular Churches include the Ukrainian, Greek, Greek Melkite, Maronite, Ruthenian Byzantine, Coptic Catholic, Syro-Malabar, Syro-Malankara, Chaldean, and Ethiopic Rites.

could we use similar language? Morlesg 01:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

23 churches

I eliminated the "23 churches" from the definition because (IMHO) it confuses more than clarifies. Hope you loke the way it read now. Morlesg 05:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Church capitalization

Why is church capitalized? This seems to go against the MoS: However, the words for types of institutions (university, college, hospital, high school, etc.) do not require capitalization if they do not appear in a proper name. Church appears to fall under this category. My Unabridged Random House dictionary says that church (in that usage) is sometimes capitalized, but not always. My Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary specifically does not capitalize 'church' in this manner. As for linking in headings, MoS says: Avoid links within headings. Depending on settings, some users may not see them clearly. It is much better to put the appropriate link in the first sentence under the heading.--Andrew c 23:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Why outlaw the use of capitalized "Church", even if only a minority of writers now use this means of making it clear that what is spoken of is not a building? However, in view of the agreement of Andrew and Morlesg on this matter, I will not insist on it here. Only after they have settled their disagreements on other matters, will I examine this article again with regard to points other than capitalizing "Church". I see that the matter of avoiding links in headings has been remedied. Lima 07:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

For what its worth, I have always understood that "the church" refers to a specific building or campus and "the Church" refers to an institution or a communion. The latter is a show of respect for a group's faith in the style of capitalizing "Christianity" or "Islam." I have not studied the latest recommendations of Webster's, Oxford, or other authorities but I would tend to argue that the traditional rules are reasonable ones in the absense of a particular reason to change.--Mcorazao 17:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Title for Roman Catholic section

I changed the title

Particular Churches that form the Catholic Church in communion with the Pope

to

Particular Churches that form the Roman Catholic Church in communion with the Pope

Given the specific reason for this disambiguation page it is biased to refer to the Roman Catholic Church as the "Catholic Church" in this header but not do the same for the other sections. In other words the specific point of this page was to respect the fact that there are different sentiments among the faithful about the meaning of this term so then using this to refer to one of the Churches is hypocritical. I realize that the "in communion with the Pope" clause was intended to clarify the point but this is more of a subtle slap in the face. I also realize that many who are "in communion with the Pope" object to the term "Roman Catholic Church." Without getting into that debate I will simply point out that the main article on this Church is entitled "Roman Catholic Church" so this article should follow that article's lead. --Mcorazao 17:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

P.S. To weigh in on some of the discussion above ... It is true that in common parlance most English speakers have capitulated to the Roman Catholic usage of the "Catholic Church" nomenclature to refer to itself. Nevertheless, most other Christian denominations have never formally accepted this usage and, more importantly, most still formally refer to themselves as part of the "catholic Church" in their liturgy and reject the RCC's usage of the term even with capitalization. I view this in the same light as the United States' use of America which the other American nations flatly reject. Certainly the United States' usage is very common, arguably the most common in English. But it would be inappropriate for Wikipedia to use the term "America" in this fashion because it is so significantly biased. --Mcorazao 17:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

P.P.S. As a Protestant I would be inclined to say that "Catholic Church" should reach this disambiguation page rather than the RCC page. However, given the fact that the RCC is what is most commonly meant in everyday conversation I acknowledge that hashing to the RCC page is the more appropriate thing for Wikipedia to do despite the controversy.--Mcorazao 17:29, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

www.tserkovnost.org/

This address seems to have been hijacked. The same happened earlier to the Internet address of the Personal Apostolic Administration of Saint John Mary Vianney, which returned to its proper owners only after several months. Should we, while waiting for the problem to be fixed, restore the link in the article to The Longer Catechism of the Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church, which, as the latest editor say, does not, at present, lead to content? Or can somebody add another citation as verification of the statement that the Eastern Orthodox Church identifies as Catholic? Lima 04:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

OED, linking, and recent changes

There is some edit warring going on. There seems to be concern about changing the article. Can we please discuss this and find a version we all agree upon. I thought most of the anon's concern was over the term "simply" which was removed. However, removing the word "simply" wasn't good enough, and factually incorrect info from the OED was added. The text was usually, and according to the Oxford English Dictionary, non-controversially called the "Catholic Church",, however the OED says in familiar non-controversial use, ‘Catholic’ is often said instead of Roman Catholic.. This is a big, big difference in meaning. The former is saying the OED claims the term "Catholic Church" i s not controversial, while the latter is saying that "Catholic" is only used without "Roman" in non-controversial, informal uses. By making this contrast, the OED is specifically implying that there IS controversy over this, and the controversy is supported by the multiple definitions of the word "Catholic Church" which is not equated to the "Church of Rome". Finally, I see no reason to link the exact same page in the same sentence to different, but related terms. In fact, it will probably confuse the reader into thinking there are two different pages. We should a) only link once so the reader can clearly click the link that will take them to the page about the church in question and b) link "Roman Catholic Church" instead of "Catholic Church" because the point of this page is Disambiguation. There is ambiguity over the term "Catholic Church", so using that phrase as the link seems to go against the entire point of this page.-Andrew c ^[talk] 01:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The OED says "...'Catholic' is that in ordinary use on the continent of Europe, especially in the Latin countries; hence historians frequently contrast 'Catholic' and 'Protestant', especially in reference to the continent; and in familiar, non-controversial use, 'Catholic' is often said instead of 'Roman Catholic'". You are saying that the OED is factually incorrect?

Linking to the subject article using one name, but not the other, is an apparent POV endorsement of the less commonly used linked term. In an attempt at neutrality and a reduction of confusion, I identified which term is the more commonly used one. Linking the term "Catholic Church" is consistent with that term being the one in more common use. Adherents.com describes its use in "most contemporary sociological literature." -72.81.136.247 02:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Purpose of this page

Part of the reason for the current mild edit war is, I think, that this page isn't sure what it is.

Is it a disambiguation page? If so, according to Wikipedia:Disambiguation there should be only one link for each entry, to the article referred to (so the line under dispute should not link to Catholic Church, as that's a redirect - but it shouldn't link to See of Rome or Pope either) and the whole thing should be vastly shortened to something like what Gareth Hughes proposes above.

Or is it an article, on the different uses of the term 'Catholic'? If this is the case, it's probably redundant with regard to Catholic, Catholicism, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, &c., and should redirect to one of them.

While it's hovered somewhere between the two, there are always going to be disputes between those who want to push it one way or the other. Myself I don't really care between the two; but at the moment it's far too wordy to be a disambiguation page, and doesn't do the job an article explaining the term as well as Catholic does; so I think it needs to go one way or the other. TSP 20:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I just backed out a subtle attempt to hijack part of the discussion; someone attempted to change the word "ofter" to "also" in the phrase "The Roman Catholic Church, often called the Catholic Church..." which AGAIN is a non-Neutral POV change... It's not "also" called because not everyone agrees that the Catholic Church is always synonymous with the Roman Catholic Church. Bill Ward 18:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by W.E.Ward.III (talk • contribs). Um, it WASN'T unsigned; it was RAW signature checked, and using my nickname instead of linking back. I WAS using the four tildes; however, I've unchecked RAW and that should fix this. Bill Ward 18:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The IP editor who was edit warring does bring up a valid concern raised here as well. Is having such a long disambig page with lists of particular churches of numerous Christian denominations helpful? I think, if we are to list the particular churches of the RCC, and if we are going to say in the lead that multiple other churches identify as "catholic", then we need to keep the other lists as well (which the IP had been deleting). But I could see a case where we delete everything after the ToC. Would the IP editor agree to also removing the list of RCC particular churches? What do others think? -Andrew c ^[talk] 20:17, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

All material should be moved to Catholicism and a true DAB page should be set up. -- SECisek 20:28, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

In fact, I was bold. Let the discussion continue. -- SECisek 20:48, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't necessarily mind trimming down the article and removing the long lists. However, the latest version isn't exactly all inclusive, in that a number of uses of the term "Catholic Church" are ignored, that were previously discussed in the lead of the longstanding version. For example, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is no longer referenced. Perhaps I'll give a crack and trying to restore some of the other meanings of the term.-Andrew c ^[talk] 21:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church redirects now to Four Marks of the Church and we are not to pipe links in a DAB page. I moved it to the See also. That said, be bold. -- SECisek 01:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

It's looking good. -- SECisek 20:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Kind of strange seeing it so short now, but hey, maybe it won't be vandalized as much now Bill Ward 20:43, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

???

Why "Eastern Orthodox Church" left singularly and "Oriental Orthodox Church" pluralized? This doesn't make much sense. Deusveritasest (talk) 05:34, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

In the first case, the local Churches consider that they all form a single Church; so that makes sense. Do the local Churches of Oriental Orthodoxy, which unlike the Eastern Orthodox have quite distinct liturgies etc., consider that they form a single Church? (I don't know, one way or the other.) Lima (talk) 07:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Criticism link

Please see WP:DPAGES. The purpose of disambiguation pages is to help direct readers to articles that share the same or similar names. This page was created because some people believe that if we use the phrase "Catholic Church" someone may possible think we are talking about some other religious body that isn't the RCC headed by the pope. This is backed up by various claims that some churches believe to be "catholic" or maybe even share or claim to share various early origins or apostolic succession. Regardless, the general idea is that someone typing "Catholic Church" in the search box may possibly be actually looking for one of these churches. That said, how many people who type "Catholic Church" in the search box are actually looking for the Criticism article? Keep in mind, when you type in "Catholic Church", you are taken to the main RCC page, which already has a link to the criticism page; just like they have links to the Roman Catholic theology page and the Sacraments of the Catholic Church page and the Catholic Church hierarchy and the History of the Roman Catholic Church page. I see no difference between adding a link to the criticism page than adding a link to any of these other spin off pages. I do not believe anyone who is having disambiguation issues with the phrase "Catholic Church" is actually trying to find the history page, or the theology page, or even the criticism page, and would argue that none of those links should be included here. So I'm curious why Kurtilein believes the link is needed for disambiguation purposes, while any number of other spin off article links are not? As for deleting the see also section completely, I'm not sure that is a good idea. A number of those articles discuss this disambiguation issues with the word "Catholic", and I do believe that they are appropriate for this page, and I hope we can restore some of them at least. -Andrew c ^[talk] 16:58, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

I just think that the "See also" items were not about disambiguating "Catholic Church". They were rather about disambiguating "Catholicism". Besides, do other disambiguation pages have "See also" sections? I am confident that there are editors who can find the answer to that question much more quickly than I can. I don't know of any, and that was my initial reason for thinking that such a section was out of place. Lima (talk) 18:09, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Lima. -- Secisek (talk) 21:55, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Doctor, Identity, Wiki (disambiguation), Time (disambiguation), etc are just a few examples of the countless disambiguation pages with "see also" sections. As I said, I feel that some of the links that were in the see also section had articles that discussed specifically the complexities and claims various religious groups have in association with the phrase "catholic church". I would suggest at least restoring the links: Branch Theory, Catholic, Catholicism, Four Marks of the Church. In my mind, including a "See also" section with such links would be like saying "Want to know why some of these religious groups you've never heard called "catholic" consider themselves "catholic", see these additional articles". -Andrew c ^[talk] 00:17, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Catholic v. Roman Catholic

I think the current version "The Western and 22 Eastern Catholic Churches in Communion with the Pope" is probably the best, however- I think I should as a subsection in case anyone else wants to join in. --Rockstone (talk) 00:13, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I can understand wanting to align the link to the article title, but for the sake of disambiguation, we needed a more substantial definition (we basically were saying "The Acme Company is the company who is lead by the CEO of the Acme Company" when the point is trying to define what Acme Company we are talking about). The long standing solution to that issue was to introduce the term "Roman Catholic Church", which has been problematic to some over the years. My changes referenced the 23 particular churches that make but the communion with the pope. Hopefully this is a bit clearer, but I'm not sure if it is too technical, introduced jargon, or may seem confusing to the masses who know little to nothing about eastern catholicism. Anyway, it was worth a shot, and hopefully it works. If not, I'm sure we can discuss other options, or someone else can attempt a bold redefinition. Thanks!-Andrew c ^[talk] 00:51, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Good point, it is kinda jarring. I like your Change alot. I would have said "The Latin and 22 Eastern Rites in Communion with the Pope and the Holy See", but that is a bit too technical. --Rockstone (talk) 02:02, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that Roman Catholic Church refers only to the Western part of the church. I am an Eastern Catholic and not a Roman Catholic. The point is that Catholic Church is one instance of the use of the term Catholic Church. Pretty clear and simple to me.--EastmeetsWest (talk) 07:26, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. "Latin Rite" is the term that refers only to the Western part of the church. "Roman Catholic Church" is the name for the entire church in communion with the Bishop of Rome. +Angr 09:50, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you are quite correct. The name "Roman Catholic Church" has historically been applied to the whole church in communion with the Pope. The more recent practice by some people ( especially Eastern Rite Catholics ) to only apply it to the Latin Rite is incorrect - understandable perhaps but still strictly incorrect. Afterwriting (talk) 10:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Renaming of the link directing Eastern Orthodox Church that is supplied here as Orthodox Church to Orthodox Catholic Church

I made this edit in an attempt to help make this disambiguation easier to understand as there has been a debate in some other articles as to how "Catholic Church" should redirect. In truth, there are many churches that claim to be the "Catholic" church, from the Roman Catholic Church to the Orthodox Catholic Church. Now, the reasoning behind me changing it to "Orthodox Catholic Church" is because that church claims to be the "Catholic" church. There are others there listed that could be put as that, but for now I am going to wait on that and see how this goes. You see, it should not be that we call the "Orthodox" only the "Orthodox Church" when they claim to be the "Orthodox Catholic Church", just as it we should not call the "Roman Catholic Church" only the "Roman Church" or the "Latin Church" or the "Western Church" or any other names.

In this edit I have made I have attempted to make it so there is a NPOV as to regards to the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church as the term "Catholic" is a well-sought after word in a title. I hope soon I can do it for the other churches claiming to be "Catholic" as well.

If you find this edit is unfounded, please discuss it here. I did not know there was so much discussion here on this disambiguation page, I thought it would not have any!

seems i'm not currently logged in, but I am Gunnar123abc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.114.111 (talk) 18:49, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Catholic Church naming conventions RfC

There is currently an RfC at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Catholic_Church)#RfC:_should_this_page_be_made_a_naming_convention that may be of interest. Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 23:38, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

The whole of Christianaty??

This edit added a disambiguation to this article saying that Catholic Church may also refer to

• The whole of Christianity (the Christian Church)

saying: Happy to discuss exactly how this is presented, but I think this is the actual primary alternative meaning of the phrase (as in the Nicene Creed when spoken by people not in communion with the Pope) so should be prominent

I have removed that addition and moved it here for discussion.

I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but I see that the Christian Church article's lead sentence says: "Christian Church is a Protestant ecclesiological term referring to the church invisible and/or all Christians throughout the history of Christianity, used since the Protestant reformation in the 16th century." As I read that, it implies that all Catholics are Christians, but does not imply that all Christians are Catholic. To me, that does not sound like an appropriate disambiguation target for the term Catholic Church, even one which is not prominent. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 22:13, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, Protestants use "catholic church" (universal) to mean all Christians. When Protestants say "catholic church" - as in, "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints" - they mean what our Christian Church article explains.

'So when the creed states, "I believe in the holy catholic church," it refers to the wholeness of the whole church in all times and places rather than to any specific branch of Christianity.' - Why do we say we believe in the “holy catholic church” in the Apostles’ Creed? - United Methodist Church TSP (talk) 23:30, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Well, that's not true of some Protestants I'm acquainted with. Not being into all this, when you say "the creed", I don't really know what you're talking about. You mentioned Nicene Creed earlier, so I guess that's it. That term is vaguely familiar, and I think I've read some details about that sometime in the past, but that's long past and not well remembered. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 21:35, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

That particular quote is talking about the Apostle's Creed, which is one of the oldest statements of Christian belief. The Nicene Creed uses a similar phrasing - "we believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic church".

Almost every church, as far as I'm aware, uses at least one of these creeds; so in doing so asserts that it believes in one "catholic" church. In the case of Protestants, they aren't talking about the organisation described in our Catholic Church article, but about the concept described in our Christian Church article.

As with many words, there are multiple meanings that coexist - for example, lots of Christians would describe themselves and their churches as "orthodox", but would also be happy informally talking about the "Orthodox Church" meaning the Eastern Orthodox churches specifically. Similarly, Protestants can both use "Catholic" in an informal way to refer to the Christians in communion with the Pope who have chosen to use that term as their specific marker, and formally in their creeds to mean the whole of Christianity. TSP (talk) 11:01, 14 August 2019 (UTC)