Talk:Casualty series 30/GA1

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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GA Review

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Reviewer: Shearonink (talk · contribs) 17:52, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

I am going to Review this article for possible GA status. The article is truly *massive* so, please be patient with me nominator and interested editors - I expect this will take me quite a while. Shearonink (talk) 17:52, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for taking this article on, Shearonink! It is indeed a *massive* article, and I will indeed be patient, as I'm sure any of interested editors will be. ElectrodeandtheAnode (talk) 18:16, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

I can only reiterate ElectrodeandtheAnode when I say thanks for reviewing the article! Soaper1234 (talk) 18:37, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   Please see "Prose" section.

   Comment. As soon as the Summaries' prose issues (as listed out below in the 'Episode write-ups' section) are dealt with I will be able to finish up this Review. Shearonink (talk) 03:41, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

   The lead lacks information - country of broadcast and also claims for notability. Shearonink (talk) 15:13, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

   I've rewritten and expanded the lead for it to include more information from across the whole article, as well as including a country of broadcast. Is the updated lead any better? ElectrodeandtheAnode (talk) 18:16, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

   Lead is in good shape now. Shearonink (talk) 04:38, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

   There are a couple of instances of multiple references all in a row, this issue can dealt with in one of two ways:

   • Some of the refs could be deleted since they are sourcing the same facts or
   • The references could be bundled together (maybe the editor/nominator wants to retain the references for historical purposes, etc), then there would be one reference number for the multiple sources within the text with the sources all listed-out within the Footnotes. For an example of how to achieve this take a look at this article. Shearonink (talk) 04:38, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

   I've removed a few references and moved a few references around to limit multiple referencing. Is it looking any better now, or can I do more to limit the multiple referencing issue? ElectrodeandtheAnode (talk) 16:50, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

   @ElectrodeandtheAnode: I appreciate your working on this issue but the point I was trying to make was that the references were interrupting the content and jarring to the eye. Now, in its present state, the article is almost doing the same thing (just in a somewhat-diferet way)...almost every.[ref] single.[ref] sentence.[ref] in those sections now has two refs. Please take a look at the "Reference-bundling" section below to see what I was trying to explain. Also, not every statement has to have an individual reference. If "Ref 1" & "Ref 2" would serve to source an entire paragraph there is no need to place that reference after each individual statement in that paragraph, just place them at the end of the paragraph. Shearonink (talk) 18:04, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

2. Is it verifiable with no original research?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   The references all conform to style guidelines and to each other. Shearonink (talk) 15:13, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

   B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:

   Several references - Refs #1, #24, #57 - are from The Daily Mirror and The Sun. These do not seem to me to be reliable sources. I think other sources should be found but am willing to discuss. Shearonink (talk) 15:13, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

   I've replaced refs #24 (originally being from Daily Mirror, changed to BBC Media Centre) and #57 (originally being from The Sun, changed to Digital Spy), however I'm struggling to find an alternative reference for ref #1, from Daily Mirror, which states Holby City hospital is fictional. I will keep looking, but otherwise, I've removed two of the three refs highlighted! ElectrodeandtheAnode (talk) 16:39, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

   Okay, I have managed to find and replace ref #1 (originally being from Daily Mirror, changed to Digital Spy). ElectrodeandtheAnode (talk) 16:34, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

   Ran the copyvio tool - good to go. Shearonink (talk) 15:13, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

   I am concerned about the level of detail, am not sure all the drama's machinations are necessary to include, but am reading it again to see if I can be more clear about this. Shearonink (talk) 04:38, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

   Stable, no edit-warring. Shearonink (talk) 15:13, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   All the images have the proper permissions. Shearonink (talk) 15:13, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

   All the images are relevant and the captions are fine. Shearonink (talk) 15:13, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   If the Episode summaries are adjusted to more of an encyclopedic tone/prose, I will be able to finish up my Review. Shearonink (talk) 03:46, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

   Wow. Well here we are. What a lot of work ElectrodeandtheAnode and Soaper1234 have put into this article to bring it up to GA standards. Congratulations fellow editors - it's a WP:GA. Shearonink (talk) 16:37, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

   Wow! This truly is brilliant! However, I must praise for ElectrodeandtheAnode for their hard work on the article! It was their dedication to the task that pulled it to GA standard! And also thank you to Shearonink for your help bringing to a GA status! Soaper1234 (talk) 16:50, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

   Sometimes it takes a village of editors working together to get an article to GA status. I know Electrode did do the heavy pulling but you assisted as well. Shearonink (talk) 16:54, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Prose

This one section had some issues:

Rita is left fearing for her safety when unusual events occur during her night shift. She receives complaints from non-existent patients, before returning home from her shift to discover her bedroom has been trashed and her mirror defaced with the words 'You will suffer' in red lipstick. A gas explosion at a construction site leads to Cal and Dylan performing a REBOA on a former gangster, but when later complications occur he dies. His best friend struggles to accept his friend's death and a gun hostage situation unfolds outside Resus. Big Mac's drug addiction get on top of him and after Mercedes threatens him, he admits he's been stealing tramadol to Noel. Noel helps Big Mac by referring him to a narcotics anonymous meeting, but as Big Mac arrives outside the meeting hall, his nerves get the better of him and he flees the meeting. Jack decides medicine isn't his speciality and quits his job to pursue a new life in the travel industry.

should be something like:

Rita is left fearing for her safety when unusual events occur during her night shift and she receives complaints from non-existent patients at the hospital. Upon returning home she discovers her bedroom has been trashed and her mirror defaced with the words 'You will suffer' in red lipstick. A gas explosion at a construction site leads to Cal and Dylan performing a REBOA on a former gangster, but when later complications occur he dies. His best friend struggles to accept his friend's death and a gun hostage situation unfolds outside Resus. Big Mac's drug addiction gets on top of him. Mercedes threatens him and he admits to Noel that he's been stealing tramadol. Noel helps Big Mac by referring him to a narcotics anonymous meeting, but as Big Mac arrives outside the meeting hall, his nerves get the better of him and he flees the meeting. Jack decides medicine isn't his speciality and quits his job to pursue a new life in the travel industry.

Also, some of the episode summaries seem a little too slangy or chatty for an encyclopedia, mostly by their use of contractions. I would eliminate the contractions and see how that looks. Shearonink (talk) 18:04, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

@ElectrodeandtheAnode: Any thoughts about the episode summaries? Shearonink (talk) 13:42, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Shearonink, I will start working on them over the next few days, and let you know as soon as I have done them. ElectrodeandtheAnode (talk) 10:33, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Reference-bundling

Take a look at this section to see how I bundled the references of a version from before you broke them up. When the reader reads the content they will now only see one [number] but if they look down to the references they will see a list of all the cited sources. Also, there is a little bit of overkill going on here. If you have one or two reliable sources backing up a statement then that is enough. You don't need to cite statements from 4 or 5 or 6 sources - that's a lot and not really needed. Henry previously appeared in several episodes in 2011. Tom Chambers made two guest appearances as his Holby City character Sam Strachan in episodes twenty-three and twenty-four, whilst Emily Carey returned in the role of Grace Beauchamp in a storyline which reunited Sam with Connie, his former partner and Grace's mother. Rosie Marcel made a guest appearance as her Holby City character Jac Naylor in episode twenty-three. Shearonink (talk) 18:04, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Oh how embarrassing, haha! I see what you mean now Shearonink, thank you for the nudge in the right direction. I do have one question about the reference bundling though – can you place any <ref name=""> templates inside a reference bundle? ElectrodeandtheAnode (talk) 07:36, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't know... Maybe not? but try it and use the Preview button to see if that works - this is just something I have recently stumbled upon myself, so I always have to go look it up on its template page (and I do wish the examples on the template page were a little more clear). Maybe ask over at "Village Pump: Technical" - those experts can probably tell you if it's possible. Shearonink (talk) 14:48, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

@Shearonink: just wondering, as I can see no other way of getting around the issue, do we need to reference every single episode individually if it has aired? If we do not, then that would certainly fix the issue of references at the end of every sentence. ElectrodeandtheAnode (talk) 15:34, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

@ElectrodeandtheAnode and Soaper1234: I am thinking that every episode doesn't need to be referenced to a fare-thee-well - took a look at some TV season's GAs and not every episode in those is cited from a published reference, I think that the episodes can be cited from the video content itself?) - so am calling in BlueMoonset for a second opinion on all that. The more important issue to me is getting some of the style/tone issues fixed in the episode summaries. Shearonink (talk) 03:16, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

@ElectrodeandtheAnode: Would it be possibly to revert to sourcing the whole series episode guide from Radio Times instead of individual episodes? As much as I prefer individiual for current series, one reference for the whole series would be easier. Soaper1234 (talk) 18:05, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes Soaper1234 it definitely would be. I know what you mean about individual episode references, but it would certainly be easier and would hugely help the ongoing issue of too many references in paragraphs. If you agree I will remove the individual references and then go from there. ElectrodeandtheAnode (talk) 20:08, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

How is it going?

@ElectrodeandtheAnode: You have done an enormous amount of work on this article. I am going to read through (again) every episode summary today to see what, if anything, needs fixing - maybe some of them are actually ok. Were you and Soaper1234 able to work out the overabundance of references? Please ping me when you make any corrections/adjustments to the article or when you comment here. I am going to be doing some proofing-readthroughs to make sure everything is in order per the GA Criteria and am hopeful that we can all finish up this Review sometime soon. Shearonink (talk) 20:19, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Episode write-ups

@ElectrodeandtheAnode and Soaper1234: I have gone through all the episode summaries, and am just listing them here with any found issues.

• Episode Summaries 1-16 are up to GA standards.
• Episode Summaries 17-18 fine.
• Episode Summary 19 - The prose here is somewhat odd.

Dixie and Jess share a kiss, but Dixie is forced to show her instinct and backs down. Cal reaches breaking point and prepares to come clean to Ethan.

Maybe this could be

Dixie and Jess share a kiss, but Dixie listens to her instincts and backs down. Cal reaches his breaking point and prepares to come clean to Ethan.

• Episode Summary 20: Prose/sentence

She blackmails him and as the pressure mounts and Noel soon suffers a collapsed collarbone, he pays Mercedes and warns her to leave.

Maybe this could be

She blackmails him but the pressure mounts and Noel suffers a collapsed collarbone, Mac pays Mercedes and warns her to leave.

• Episode Summary 21-23: fine
• Episode Summary 24:

The news soon gets out and Noel turns against Mac after learning of his deception before declaring he's moving out.

The phrasing doesn't flow as well as it could so

Maybe this could be

Mercedes returns to the hospital after she is involved in a drugs bust-up. PC Wilkinson makes connections between Mercedes and Big Mac and discovers Mercedes was Noel's mugger. This news soon gets out with Noel turning against Mac after learning of Mac's deception before declaring that he is moving out.

• Episode 25-28: fine
• Episode 29: delete "is this the end for Connie and Jacob?" - that's not encyclopedic.
• Episode 30: fine
• Episode 31:

and his eighteen year-old girlfriend, Fiona are involved - there needs to be a comma after Fiona.

and refuses to accept that their child is not going to make it - and refuses to accept that her child is not going to make it.

because of the way the sentence is constructed this ^^^^

• Episode 32:

Resus. Big Mac's drug addiction get on top of him and - the phrase "gets on top of him" - is too colloquial/slangy, please adjust it to something else.

• Episode 33:

to treat a female alcoholic named Cider Anne, who's not only got cirrhosis of the liver but is also has varicose veins in the abdomen and throat - ??? Needs to be rephrased

something like

to treat a female alcoholic named Cider Anne, who not only has cirrhosis of the liver but also has varicose veins in the abdomen and throat.

• Episode 34:

Consultant Elle Gardner prepares herself for her first day at Holby City, although things don't go to plan when she accidentally runs Vince over.

maybe could be

Consultant Elle Gardner prepares herself for her first day at Holby City, but then she accidentally runs Vince over.

After discovering she's left without him,

maybe this could be

After discovering she has left without him, [too many contractions close together - a few are ok but not this many]

I am going to finish up going through the rest of the Episodes 35-43 with my fine-toothed editorial comb in the next few hours. Shearonink (talk) 23:08, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• Episode 35-36

Fine

• Episode 37:

Ethan finds himself in an awkward situation when a patient he's treating tries it on with him.

I don't know quite what this colloquialism - "tries it on" - means. Shearonink (talk) 03:28, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• Episode 38-43

Fine

If the Episode Summaries issues as laid out above are adjusted, I will consider 1A to be fulfilled. Shearonink (talk) 03:28, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

I am striking out the Episode Summaries that have been adjusted to MOS/GA standards. Shearonink (talk) 05:06, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your help with the episode summaries - I really appreciate it! I will continue working on them today. Hopefully I can get them done by the end of tomorrow. ElectrodeandtheAnode (talk) 06:47, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

@Shearonink: I have amended all the remaining summaries accordingly. You might want to re-read them but otherwise, that is the episode summaries complete! ElectrodeandtheAnode (talk) 13:51, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

All the Episode Summaries are much better and in my opinion conform to the prose standards expected of a WP:GA. Shearonink (talk) 16:29, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Last thoughts (almost)

@ElectrodeandtheAnode and Soaper1234: I am not sure what you think I said above regarding the references but I apologize for not being perhaps as clear as I could have been. At this time the references are much-improved and look fine. When I was referring to the bunched up references all I meant is that this was a bit of citation overkill to have a string of references in a row. The issue has been dealt with to my satisfaction in terms of the WP:GA Criteria but could perhaps be further adjusted in the future. Shearonink (talk) 03:41, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

@Shearonink: No it is absolutely fine about the references. When you brought the issue up I came to realise that the article definitely did have citation overkill. Thank you for letting us know that the issue has been dealt with; hopefully myself and Soaper1234 can continue to clean the article's citations up a bit more in the future. ElectrodeandtheAnode (talk) 06:45, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

@ElectrodeandtheAnode and Soaper1234: Did you know that you could use Template:Cite episode to reference episode content, that you don't have to use a published TV Guide type of ref? I was discussing referencing episodes with BlueMoonset here - I knew there was some cite template that could be used to back up episode summaries but couldn't quite remember which one. Anyway, take a look at that discussion and the template - which looks like this:

{{Cite episode |title= |episode-link= |url= |access-date= |series= |series-link= |first= |last= |network= |station= |date= |season= |series-no= |number= |minutes= |time= |transcript= |transcript-url= |quote= |language=}}.

You just need to fill out the parameters that you can, making the template as complete as possible (episode title, date aired, network/broadcast platform, producers and/or directors' names, and so on) - take a look at the examples on the Template page, they're very helpful.

Hope this helps for future editing/referencing of any other TV shows you might want to write up. Shearonink (talk) 16:22, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.