Talk:Casting couch/Archives/2017
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BLP violations??
As it stands, this article is largely a list of accusations of sexual misconduct made by one (named) individual against another (named) individual. Few of the accused individuals have been arrested, charged or convicted of any offence, and almost all the references are primary (interviews with the accusers, books by them etc.). In that respect it could be argued that it's pretty well all a series of WP:BLP violations which should be removed. On the other hand, the news media has been full of this kind of thing for weeks now, so it's certainly a topic that WP:RS have been discussing, and accusations of this kind pretty well have to originate from a primary source.
I'd appreciate a few more opinions as to whether we can allow this kind of accusation to remain in the article. If I just dive in and butcher the article, I fear it'll end up in a messy edit war and I'd sooner avoid that if I can, by trying to reach a consensus on a way forward. Neiltonks (talk) 13:12, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
- Many of the accused listed here are unnamed or deceased - I would appreciate it if you could please check before butchering randomly. Also, this article is a record of a cultural watershed in progress, so please butcher advisedly.Growlies (talk) 16:44, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
- I think you will find that Wikipedia is not the best place to document this. Have you read WP:BLP? Unproven allegations against living people need to be removed. Individual allegations against people (living or dead) don't really help readers understand the casting couch, so this article isn't very useful as it stands. Ideally, this article would be about the general concept as a cultural phenomenon, not a list of allegations. World's Lamest Critic (talk) 22:32, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
- The list is extremely useful in helping readers understand concretely what the casting couch is as a cultural phenomenon (i.e. a pervasive and still unresolved open secret around the entire world).Growlies (talk) 17:20, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
- I disagree, but that's ok. I would split the list of allegations off into its own article, but I'm not clear on the criteria used for inclusion. The very notion of "the casting couch" is that there is a power differential and the lure of a role in exchange for sex. A lot of this list seems to be just unproven allegations made about sexual assaults involving people in the entertainment industry. You might want to take a look at Weinstein effect, both for the overlap and the structure of the article. Have you read WP:BLP yet? World's Lamest Critic (talk) 22:34, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, but the article as it now stands, gutted of the historical context provided by the list of allegations (subdivided by geographical location and chronologically ordered so not actually a "jumble"), is far less useful now. The reader gets no sense of how generations of people employed in the world's entertainment industries have made allegations which were either disregarded as "unproven" or joked about as a titillating tragedy-cum-fantasy (to cite one example: part of the post-5 October 2017 Weinstein effect is the rediscovery and reappraisal of actress Maureen O'Hara's unproven and therefore forgotten 1945 allegations, which she reiterated 49 years later, about unnamed casting-couch directors/producers). The new page should be all about providing this context, not just a general definition and a link to some gossipy Fox News article.Growlies (talk) 16:02, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
- Oh, I'm not saying this is a good article in any way. I'm just concerned that we have a very long list of sexual assaults including unproven allegations about named living people, with no criteria for what's being included in that list so that the entries relate to the "casting couch" phenomenon. Have you read WP:BLP yet? World's Lamest Critic (talk) 16:19, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, I have.
- The length of the list is part of the point.
- The criteria: people working or looking for work in the world's entertainment industries (film, TV, theatre, fashion, etc.) making allegations of sexual harassment, abuse and rape by their employers, potential employers or people with potential power to find them employment.
- By all means, remove the names of the living people who have been accused, but please leave the names of the accusers and the nature of the accusation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Growlies (talk • contribs) 16:46, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for reading WP:BLP. I hope you understand why Wikipedia may not be the best place for you to do wahtever it is you're trying to do. This isn't an article about general sexual abuse in the entertainment industry. How does a fellow actor asking Rebel Wilson to stick her finger up his ass relate to the casting couch? World's Lamest Critic (talk) 17:44, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
- "wahtever it is you're trying to do"? You make my trying to improve a Wikipedia article sound like some great mystery.
- You wrote you were unclear about the criteria for a new page (not the "casting couch" page) and I provided some, so why are you muddying the waters by saying that "This isn't an article about general sexual abuse in the entertainment industry"?
- I'm not sure if the Rebel Wilson claim belongs in the article, true, though SBC is a bigger star with far more studio clout, so there was a power imbalance there.Growlies (talk) 14:33, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for reading WP:BLP. I hope you understand why Wikipedia may not be the best place for you to do wahtever it is you're trying to do. This isn't an article about general sexual abuse in the entertainment industry. How does a fellow actor asking Rebel Wilson to stick her finger up his ass relate to the casting couch? World's Lamest Critic (talk) 17:44, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
- Oh, I'm not saying this is a good article in any way. I'm just concerned that we have a very long list of sexual assaults including unproven allegations about named living people, with no criteria for what's being included in that list so that the entries relate to the "casting couch" phenomenon. Have you read WP:BLP yet? World's Lamest Critic (talk) 16:19, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, but the article as it now stands, gutted of the historical context provided by the list of allegations (subdivided by geographical location and chronologically ordered so not actually a "jumble"), is far less useful now. The reader gets no sense of how generations of people employed in the world's entertainment industries have made allegations which were either disregarded as "unproven" or joked about as a titillating tragedy-cum-fantasy (to cite one example: part of the post-5 October 2017 Weinstein effect is the rediscovery and reappraisal of actress Maureen O'Hara's unproven and therefore forgotten 1945 allegations, which she reiterated 49 years later, about unnamed casting-couch directors/producers). The new page should be all about providing this context, not just a general definition and a link to some gossipy Fox News article.Growlies (talk) 16:02, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
- I disagree, but that's ok. I would split the list of allegations off into its own article, but I'm not clear on the criteria used for inclusion. The very notion of "the casting couch" is that there is a power differential and the lure of a role in exchange for sex. A lot of this list seems to be just unproven allegations made about sexual assaults involving people in the entertainment industry. You might want to take a look at Weinstein effect, both for the overlap and the structure of the article. Have you read WP:BLP yet? World's Lamest Critic (talk) 22:34, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
- The list is extremely useful in helping readers understand concretely what the casting couch is as a cultural phenomenon (i.e. a pervasive and still unresolved open secret around the entire world).Growlies (talk) 17:20, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
- I think you will find that Wikipedia is not the best place to document this. Have you read WP:BLP? Unproven allegations against living people need to be removed. Individual allegations against people (living or dead) don't really help readers understand the casting couch, so this article isn't very useful as it stands. Ideally, this article would be about the general concept as a cultural phenomenon, not a list of allegations. World's Lamest Critic (talk) 22:32, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Renaming of article
The title Casting couch was created in 2005. But I feel not many media outlets now use the term "casting couch" anymore considering it as rather "passé". Owing to the large number of revelations of sexual misconduct and abuse recently, it is high time we discuss a more appropriate title for the article. Some of the items we quote may not be strictly a "casting couch" situation anyway. I have no clear alternative title to replace "casting couch", but am soliciting possible alternative more neutral and more inclusive titles we could actually adopt. werldwayd (talk) 01:49, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
- As I wrote above, I think the emphasis should be on providing the historical context of how people employed in the world's entertainment industries have made allegations of sexual harassment, abuse and rape by their employers and potential employers over the last century and the supposedly amusing, titillating phrase "the casting couch" was used to make light of and thereby normalize this "alleged" state of affairs.
- Have you seen Weinstein effect? That may be the article you're looking for. As for this article, I have no doubt that the casting couch phenomenon has been studied and/or reported on outside of simply regurgitating specific allegations. Rather than making a list of allegations (which is going to a problem), why not look to expand it with some of that research? If you want to make List of proven or alleged sexual assaults by or on people loosely related to the entertainment industry, go ahead, and put this article in the "see also" sectiion. World's Lamest Critic (talk) 16:36, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
- I have seen Weinstein effect - certainly some of the casting couch allegations list could be integrated there (but not all the historical context which would be irrelevant to Weinstein). I doubt that the casting couch has been studied seriously/scientifically/sociologically, but I could be wrong. 99% of "work" on it just salacious Hollywood Babylon-style tabloid gossip.Growlies (talk) 16:57, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
- Here, some recent longer pieces from reliable sources:
- http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2017/10/13/_1956_casting_couch_expos_shows_little_has_changed.html
- https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/10/casting-couch-the-origins-of-a-pernicious-hollywood-cliche/543000/
- http://variety.com/2017/film/features/casting-couch-hollywood-sexual-harassment-harvey-weinstein-1202589895/
- http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41614221
- That should get you started. Please try and keep it focused. World's Lamest Critic (talk) 17:51, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
- By "serious", I thought you meant academic/scholarly. The list you deleted was filled with "reliable sources" like these (admittedly some tabloid links too which shouldn't be there).
- "Please try and keep it focused"? Are you a Wikipedia employee?Growlies (talk) 14:33, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- Believe it or not, I'm actually trying to help you improve this article and do it without running afoul of Wikipedia's policies. I thought you wanted to expand our coverage of the casting couch paradigm? I have no doubt that there are other, more academic sources available if you look for them. World's Lamest Critic (talk) 16:31, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- OK, I've just created a List of proven or alleged pre-Weinstein historical sexual assaults in the entertainment industry.Growlies (talk) 21:02, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- Aaaand it's already been nominated for deletion.Growlies (talk) 22:04, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- Eloquai writes: →Delete. This article appears to have been created in response to an editing conflict at 'Casting couch'. As a result, we have a list that appears to be meshing 'casting couch' allegations with broader sexual harassment allegations under a somewhat arbitrary title. Some information here could be incorporated into an article (nb. not list) that deals specifically with the wider, and well reported, issue of sexual harassment in the entertainment industry (thus helping to mitigate some WP:BLP and WP:OR issues), or used to expand the 'Casting couch' article. But it doesn't work in this article, in this form.← Sigh.Growlies (talk) 23:21, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- If I might expand on my reasoning at that AfD discussion: I don't think the information you've collated into that list should be forever expunged from Wikipedia, but I would question whether Wikipedia is an appropriate host of that list in its present form. Leaving aside WP:BLP issues for a moment, we do not necessarily need a lengthy, non-exhaustive list of every sexual harassment allegation that has come out of the entertainment industry to provide an appropriate historical context for either the 'casting couch' concept or the very real issue of sexual harassment in Hollywood and other entertainment hubs. I agree with the thrust of World's Lamest Critic's argument above; I would also recommend focusing this article by converting some of the information you've compiled in that list into a prose-based description of the 'casting couch' issue, or as mentioned in the AfD discussion, a new article on sexual harassment within the entertainment industry. Eloquai (talk) 23:53, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- When asked if a new Sexual harassment in the entertainment industry article or an expansion of the Casting couch article is more likely to be deleted, RileyBugz writes: →None of them, if done well. But, the scope of this list (basically, what it includes) is a bit arbitrary. It would probably be ok to create a new article with a similar title, removed pre-Weinstein historical, and possible "alleged" (because there might be BLP violations there), and then include this as a section (as the Weinstein allegations seem to be opening up a new "chapter", per se, in terms of how sexual harassment is dealt with in entertainment).←
- OK, I'll convert the list into prose and debulk this accursed arbitrariness - will have to see if it works better as a new article or as an extension of Casting couch (though that term is dating very quickly, it seems).Growlies (talk) 14:50, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
- Interesting post by John Pack Lambert: →Delete What subjects like this need are reliable source based articles, not lists. Especially when we include "proven or alleged" in the title. That is troublesome. I am not saying everything needs to be "proven", but we need to base material on reliable sources, and avoid being a tabloid. The "casting couch" phenomenon does seem to relate to some of the sexual harrassment allegations against Weinstien and others, but there are other such allegations of sexual assault and harassment that do not fit into the narrow "have sex to get a part in the film" allegations. I also had a friend who was told she would have to have sex with the director or producer (I don't remember which) to have a chance to audition for a film, this was back around 1970, and she not only refused this offer but instead chose to not go into film at all. The person I know we have an article on her husband, and she is mentioned in that article, but I do not have easily accessable sources to show it. I have heard her tell the story once or twice to a gathering of people, probably about 20 in number, but I do not believe she has ever sought to expose it to the media. Actually the way she tells the story it is meant as a general indicting of the lack of moral fibre in the American film industry, showing a darkness of abuse of power and overly high demands for sex that make it hard to go after specific instances of sexual harrassment. There seems to be a new view since the break of mainstream media exposees of Weinstein in early October 2017, but weather this new climate can really mean that allegations against any individual will be given a fair trial, or if it is that Weinstein fell to this because he was no longer as big a mover in Hollywood as he once was, remains to be seen.← — Preceding unsigned comment added by Growlies (talk • contribs) 18:45, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- What part of that do you find interesting in relation to this article? World's Lamest Critic (talk) 20:35, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- Well, that the list is too tabloidy and that some of the allegations don't seem to belong to the "casting couch" trope (hence I would say potentially being better suited to a new article). But it's also noteworthy that someone on Wikipedia knows someone who spoke of undergoing textbook "casting-couch" sexual harassment in the 70s and chose to leave the industry.Growlies (talk) 22:39, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- I have no doubt that virtually all editors on Wikipedia know someone who has been sexually harassed. It's not noteworthy in the sense that it can be used in this or any other article on Wikipedia. World's Lamest Critic (talk) 23:13, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- Oh, I know quite a few people who have been sexually harassed. However, I don't think I know anyone who has experienced the "casting couch" in the film industry. Do you? (And obviously I would never use "unnamed person once accused another unnamed person, according to Wikipedia user" on a Wikipedia page. Sheesh!)Growlies (talk) 23:29, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- I have no doubt that virtually all editors on Wikipedia know someone who has been sexually harassed. It's not noteworthy in the sense that it can be used in this or any other article on Wikipedia. World's Lamest Critic (talk) 23:13, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- Well, that the list is too tabloidy and that some of the allegations don't seem to belong to the "casting couch" trope (hence I would say potentially being better suited to a new article). But it's also noteworthy that someone on Wikipedia knows someone who spoke of undergoing textbook "casting-couch" sexual harassment in the 70s and chose to leave the industry.Growlies (talk) 22:39, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- What part of that do you find interesting in relation to this article? World's Lamest Critic (talk) 20:35, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- Interesting post by John Pack Lambert: →Delete What subjects like this need are reliable source based articles, not lists. Especially when we include "proven or alleged" in the title. That is troublesome. I am not saying everything needs to be "proven", but we need to base material on reliable sources, and avoid being a tabloid. The "casting couch" phenomenon does seem to relate to some of the sexual harrassment allegations against Weinstien and others, but there are other such allegations of sexual assault and harassment that do not fit into the narrow "have sex to get a part in the film" allegations. I also had a friend who was told she would have to have sex with the director or producer (I don't remember which) to have a chance to audition for a film, this was back around 1970, and she not only refused this offer but instead chose to not go into film at all. The person I know we have an article on her husband, and she is mentioned in that article, but I do not have easily accessable sources to show it. I have heard her tell the story once or twice to a gathering of people, probably about 20 in number, but I do not believe she has ever sought to expose it to the media. Actually the way she tells the story it is meant as a general indicting of the lack of moral fibre in the American film industry, showing a darkness of abuse of power and overly high demands for sex that make it hard to go after specific instances of sexual harrassment. There seems to be a new view since the break of mainstream media exposees of Weinstein in early October 2017, but weather this new climate can really mean that allegations against any individual will be given a fair trial, or if it is that Weinstein fell to this because he was no longer as big a mover in Hollywood as he once was, remains to be seen.← — Preceding unsigned comment added by Growlies (talk • contribs) 18:45, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- If I might expand on my reasoning at that AfD discussion: I don't think the information you've collated into that list should be forever expunged from Wikipedia, but I would question whether Wikipedia is an appropriate host of that list in its present form. Leaving aside WP:BLP issues for a moment, we do not necessarily need a lengthy, non-exhaustive list of every sexual harassment allegation that has come out of the entertainment industry to provide an appropriate historical context for either the 'casting couch' concept or the very real issue of sexual harassment in Hollywood and other entertainment hubs. I agree with the thrust of World's Lamest Critic's argument above; I would also recommend focusing this article by converting some of the information you've compiled in that list into a prose-based description of the 'casting couch' issue, or as mentioned in the AfD discussion, a new article on sexual harassment within the entertainment industry. Eloquai (talk) 23:53, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- Eloquai writes: →Delete. This article appears to have been created in response to an editing conflict at 'Casting couch'. As a result, we have a list that appears to be meshing 'casting couch' allegations with broader sexual harassment allegations under a somewhat arbitrary title. Some information here could be incorporated into an article (nb. not list) that deals specifically with the wider, and well reported, issue of sexual harassment in the entertainment industry (thus helping to mitigate some WP:BLP and WP:OR issues), or used to expand the 'Casting couch' article. But it doesn't work in this article, in this form.← Sigh.Growlies (talk) 23:21, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- Aaaand it's already been nominated for deletion.Growlies (talk) 22:04, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- OK, I've just created a List of proven or alleged pre-Weinstein historical sexual assaults in the entertainment industry.Growlies (talk) 21:02, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- Believe it or not, I'm actually trying to help you improve this article and do it without running afoul of Wikipedia's policies. I thought you wanted to expand our coverage of the casting couch paradigm? I have no doubt that there are other, more academic sources available if you look for them. World's Lamest Critic (talk) 16:31, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
- Here, some recent longer pieces from reliable sources:
- I have seen Weinstein effect - certainly some of the casting couch allegations list could be integrated there (but not all the historical context which would be irrelevant to Weinstein). I doubt that the casting couch has been studied seriously/scientifically/sociologically, but I could be wrong. 99% of "work" on it just salacious Hollywood Babylon-style tabloid gossip.Growlies (talk) 16:57, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
- Have you seen Weinstein effect? That may be the article you're looking for. As for this article, I have no doubt that the casting couch phenomenon has been studied and/or reported on outside of simply regurgitating specific allegations. Rather than making a list of allegations (which is going to a problem), why not look to expand it with some of that research? If you want to make List of proven or alleged sexual assaults by or on people loosely related to the entertainment industry, go ahead, and put this article in the "see also" sectiion. World's Lamest Critic (talk) 16:36, 16 November 2017 (UTC)