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Articles for Deletion debate

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This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. -Doc 22:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't quite get it. The vote was 3 to delete and 2 to keep. After 6 days, User talk:Doc glasgow claims the vote was to keep. What Math logic allows for 2 votes to beat 3 votes. This article clearly needs to be deleted deleted deleted deleted. This woman has no notoriety of her own.222.146.121.39 12:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC) Wasn't signed in when I wrote the above comment.DDD DDD 13:00, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merger proposal

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It has been proposed by Andrew Saxton that this article be merged with that of Brian Mulroney. I support the proposal for the same reasons I provided in my AfD nomination. As I wrote during that debate, being the the daughter of a fairly famous man, marrying the son of a fairly famous man, and having a third fairly famous man sing at the wedding does not a notable person make. Caroline Mulroney's name appears to carry no recognition as it is nearly always followed by "daughter of former Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney" or some such description. Victoriagirl 21:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is totally irreverent now that she is the current Ontario Attorney General. Kevinhanit (talk) 02:03, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You do realize this was proposed 13 years ago, right? IOW, it's not relevant to even respond to it anymore, because it's a horse that's been dead for over a decade. Bearcat (talk) 02:22, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I do, Bearcat. Kevinhanit (talk) 14:54, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Mulroney, or Mulroney Lapham?

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I a agree with Earl Andrew's renaming, and trimmed the Lapham from most instances of her name. Geo Swan (talk) 23:16, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The NYS eCourts search shows her registered as Mulroney Lapham (unhyphenated name). http://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/attorney/AttorneySearch

OrangeProperties (talk) 09:40, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No evidence that she is a lawyer either in New York State or any Province or Territory of Canada

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A search for the the surname Mulroney, Lapham or Mulroney Lapham in the New York State Attorney Directory cited in the article produces no results. http://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/attorney/AttorneyDetails?attorneyId=5633064 returns "This link is no longer valid" and searching at http://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/attorney/AttorneySearch produces no results either. Additionally a search in the membership records of every province and territory of Canada for those surnames produces no results. While she might have a law degree from a foreign university this does not make her a "lawyer". Therefore I am removing all references to her being a lawyer from the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.11.181.42 (talk) 13:40, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like this is the link that in Mulroney is registered as a lawyer: http://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/attorney/AttorneyDetails?attorneyId=9K9JdxmM03BxQlRSpmYXww%3D%3D

That link returns "Link no longer valid" Please find a secondary source for this before reinstating it

→A National Post article clearly states that Mulroney was not called to the bar in Ontario, as rearing her fourth child was a more important life priority. https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/caroline-mulroney-running-for-leader-of-ontario-pcs

OrangeProperties (talk) 02:06, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

→I did a further search First: Caroline Last: Lapham, apparently the search has been changed to this link: http://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/attorney/AttorneySearch It turns out Mulroney Lapham (unhyphenated name) has a YES next to disciplinary history.

OrangeProperties (talk) 09:37, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that disciplinary history shows an 8 month suspension in 2017 and seems to indicate that she was a member of the New York Bar at that time and will be up until June 2022. CONTEXTKID (talk) 20:38, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Starting a charity does not make you a philanthropist

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Philanthropy is distinct from charity in that it attempts to address the root cause of a problem rather than simply relieving its pain. The shoebox project is clearly a charity but is not philanthropic. I propose deleting references to being a philanthropist from this article. None of the secondary sources cited in this context refer to her as being a philanthropist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:8D80:6A5:AD69:B08C:51A:6717:4359 (talk) 13:21, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ever comment or edit from an IP user isn't a stalker or to be discounted. Drop the stick and the conspiracy theory and focus on content instead. 2605:8D80:622:BA70:A960:DF35:7ACC:6F7C (talk) 19:17, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Venture fund manager" or "Manager at a venture fund firm"  ?

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The term "venture fund manager" suggests that someone actually manages the fund itself. There is no evidence that she ever was in this position, rather that she was a manager in a venture fund firm. I propose changing "venture fund manager" to "manager/financial analyst at a venture fund firm" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.11.181.42 (talk) 14:02, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No one objected here for a few days so I changed it. Someone then went and changed it back. I will change it again and, if there is a valid reason to call her a venture fund manager please put it here so that there can be consensus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.11.181.42 (talk) 16:54, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like someone changed it back again. Unless they make a valid case here they should not change it again. I will try changing it once more. 172.97.150.249 (talk) 18:50, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore it is clear from http://bloombergsen.com/team.html that she is (was) a client services and business development (i.e. sales) manager 66.11.181.42 (talk) 16:29, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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The external links section of a Wikipedia article is not for collecting extra media coverage above and beyond what's being used as footnoted referencing — it is for the topic's own website and/or a profile on a relevant database (such as the profile she'll have on the Legislative Assembly website if she wins her seat in the election and becomes an MPP.) The following links can be readded to the article as footnoted referencing for body content, if they're not reduplicating references that are already there, but are not appropriate for simply listing as "external links". Bearcat (talk) 23:36, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  1. Shinan Govani (October 18, 2010). "Shinan: Kiddie talk". National Post. Archived from the original on November 2, 2015. Retrieved November 2, 2015. Toronto's Caroline Mulroney Lapham, the only daughter of former prime minister Brian Mulroney, has dipped her feet, we see, into blog waters — signing on as co-editor of a precocious website called GoGoNews (GoGoNews.com). {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  2. Gayle MacDonald (December 14, 2010). "GoGoNews aims to be the go-to site for kids". The Globe and Mail. Archived from the original on November 2, 2015. Retrieved November 2, 2015. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  3. "Weddings; Caroline Mulroney, Andrew Lapham". The New York Times. September 17, 2000. Archived from the original on November 2, 2015. Retrieved November 2, 2015. Ms. Mulroney Lapham, a mother of four, had stopped working as a lawyer in New York in the summer of 2005, shortly before the birth of twins and the family's move back to Toronto. Two years ago, she started visiting the site daily and chatting with her brood (who are all under the age of 6) about stories and jokes that took their collective fancy. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  4. Rick Salutin (2015). What Was I Thinking?: The Autobiography of an Idea and Other Essays. Toronto: ECW Press. p. 101. ISBN 1770907343. Retrieved November 2, 2015. My first Globe column was a defence of Frank magazine, the scuzzy satirical journal that everyone in Ottawa reviled and read. Frank had run a "contest" for young Tories, who were invited to "deflower" Caroline Mulroney, the prime minister's 16-year-old daughter. His popularity was at low ebb and still plunging, so he'd start bringing her to Conservative Party events, especially of the young, in order to quite blatantly boost his standing.
  5. Jennifer Ditchburn (December 2, 2013). "Mulroney women join forces with Parliament Hill for holiday charity". Maclean's magazine. The Canadian Press. Archived from the original on November 2, 2015. Retrieved November 2, 2015. An informal Christmas donation idea thought up by the Mulroney family women two years ago has spilled over into a major grassroots charitable drive across Canada, including among Canada's political movers and shakers. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  6. "Raitt unveils panel that will oversee new Detroit-Windsor bridge". Business News Network. July 30, 2014. Archived from the original on November 2, 2015. Retrieved November 2, 2015. Caroline Mulroney Lapham, the daughter of former prime minister Brian Mulroney, has been appointed to the board of Crown Corporation that will oversee the construction and operation of a new, second bridge across Canada's most vital trade link to the United States. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  7. Clare Mellor (May 8, 2015). "Shoebox Project: Mother's Day donations for women in shelters". The Chronicle Herald. Archived from the original on November 2, 2015. Retrieved November 2, 2015. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  8. Dave Batagello (July 31, 2014). "DRIC board appointees have close ties to political leaders". Windsor Star. Archived from the original on November 2, 2015. Retrieved November 2, 2015. Also on the WDBA as one of four members is Caroline Mulroney Lapham, daughter of former prime minister Brian Mulroney. Along with her Conservative government ties, she recently worked with McQueen as vice-president of corporate development at Wellington Financial. McQueen also served for her dad in the prime minister's office as an executive assistant for a few years in the early 1990s. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  9. LuAnn LaSalle (September 18, 2000). "George Bush, Kathie Lee, Queen Noor among guests; Former PM's daughter marries magazine editor's son". Waterloo Region Record. Archived from the original on November 2, 2015. Retrieved November 2, 2015. The wedding of ex-prime minister Brian Mulroney's only daughter drew about 450 guests, including former U.S. president George Bush and wife Barbara, Queen Noor of Jordan and former TV talk-show host Kathie Lee Gifford. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  10. Hubert Bauch (September 24, 1991). "Media embrace unfair to PM's daughter". Waterloo Region Record. Archived from the original on November 2, 2015. Retrieved November 2, 2015. What happened to Caroline Mulroney when the national media latched on to her as this summer's new face in Canadian politics is a sorry example of how hurtful it can get. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  11. Jonathan Ferguson (August 10, 1991). "PM's daughter belle of the ball". Toronto Star. Archived from the original on November 2, 2015. Retrieved November 2, 2015. Caroline Mulroney, 17, has emerged as the country's leading political debutante. Tall and striking like her mother, the Mulroneys' eldest frequently accompanied her father on walkabouts among the 2,500 delegates. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  12. LuAnn LaSalle, LuAnn (September 15, 2000). "Mulroney wedding draws rich, powerful - Caroline's guest list a 'who's who of the world's political elite'". Toronto Star. Archived from the original on November 2, 2015. Retrieved November 2, 2015. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

Canadian–American vs. Canadian

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I recently changed the opening sentence of the lede from Canadian-American to Canadian because I think it better represents who she is. She gained U.S. citizenship through a marriage similar to how Tom Mulcair gained French citizenship through his marriage, yet we don't refer to him as a Canadian-French politician because it's an innacurate description. Furthermore, she was born in Canada, is now an Ontario MPP and the Attorney General, she ran for the leadership of the Ontario PC Party, lives in Toronto and Lake Simcoe, and is the daughter of a former Prime Minister. Her American citizenship is clearly secondary to her Canadian one. Her American citizenship is already highlighted in the infobox and multiple times in the article, which seems like more than enough. 209.171.88.72 (talk) 19:56, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You're correct that her American citizenship, acquired by marriage, is not a significant enough aspect of her biography to warrant her nationality being reified into "Canadian American" — particularly given that the "hyphenated American" construction connotes a person who resides in the United States, which Caroline Mulroney does not. There was a time in the past when it would have been the most accurate description of her contemporaneous circumstances, given that she spent some time living in New York with her husband — but she is not a resident of the United States now, so her dual citizenship is not relevant enough to warrant being described that way in the lede. Bearcat (talk) 21:26, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

She has resigned her US citizenship and is no longer a US citizen CarlosDanger2 (talk) 14:50, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Inaccurate removal of American Citizenship; she is still an American by choice and oath, according to RSs.

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Its awful that a [SPA] was able to remove references to Subject's taking out American Citizenship ( and renouncing her Canadian Citizenship at the same time). Also, it is false that anybody gets American citizenship just by marrying an American.

As far as her "resigning" her U.S. citizenship, there is no sourcing for that at all. Andrew Scheer. also has American citizenship and he announced he had "begun the process" of renouncing that yet changed his mind when he lost the election and never did give it up. Its understandable that anyone wants to have American citizenship. CONTEXTKID (talk) 20:12, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The source saying she renounced isn't good enough but I'm not sure she didn't, and I agree with the editor from the prior discussion above i.e. Bearcat that "American" would be inappropriate in the lead even if true. You don't have consensus and I doubt you'll get it. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 21:33, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
For starters, she cannot have renounced her Canadian citizenship at any point ("and renouncing her Canadian Citizenship at the same time"), because she would not even be eligible to hold the political office she currently holds if she had. You're correct that there aren't any good sources for Carlos's claim that she subsequently renounced her American citizenship, but that's not the point: the point is that she's a Canadian-born and Canadian-raised person who got into Wikipedia by holding a Canadian political office, so the fact that she happens to also have acquired American citizenship is pure trivia, which can certainly be mentioned in the article body but is in no way central enough to either her biography or her notability to warrant describing her as "American Canadian" in the article's very first sentence. And nobody said that she "automatically" got American citizenship just by virtue of marrying an American, either — but she did pursue the process of applying for American citizenship because she married an American. Which is precisely why it can and should be mentioned in the article body, round about the same place that her marriage is mentioned — but calling attention to her acquired dual citizenship in the lede is undue weight, because it's orthogonal to her notability as a member of a Canadian provincial legislature. Bearcat (talk) 10:42, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Bearcat (talk), if you are correct then perhaps she does have a problem, because the Toronto Star's observation, i.e. "Caroline Mulroney is a dual citizen (interestingly, the U.S. oath of allegiance requires newcomers to “renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign … state, or sovereignty”);" appears .to be correct . Sheer was born into it so he would not have had to renounce, but she was naturalized and that requires the renunciation according to the Star. But you have brought up very interesting point. Oh, I see, I was wrong, she did not renounce her Canadian Citizenship, just her allegiance to Canada. (no pun intended). CONTEXTKID (talk) 01:40, 27 June 2021 (UTC).[reply]
At this time there is no consensus so I removed. Incidentally please respect WP:TALKHEADPOV in future. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 13:59, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Peter Gulutzan above pointed out that the Reddit post used as a source by a SPA was insufficient to show that Subject had given up her U.S. citizenship. So, the last edit was ok for removing mention in the lede but there is no consensus for removing mention of her obtaining US citizenship in the Personal section where it had been for years before the SPA removed it sourcing the Reddit post only as a source for removal. I do not see a consensus for allowing SPA's removal of well sourced and long standing citizenship data to govern, especially when the SPA only had a Reddit post for a source. CONTEXTKID (talk) 23:34, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Has there been any coverage of the U.S. oath of allegiance matter with regards to Mulroney, other than a passing comment in a Toronto Star opinion column? I have been unable to find any. If reliable sources do not cover this, then Wikipedia should not have it (WP:UNDUE). Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 23:58, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Macleans has this
"Her lawn signs spread her face in York-Simcoe, north of Toronto, where she launched her campaign as the Conservative candidate last summer, three weeks after buying a house in the riding. She is equally unfamiliar elsewhere in Canada, as a Serbian-speaking American dual citizen whose family is acquainted with the Trumps and who, in honour of her father-in-law who founded Harper’s Magazine, named one son Lewis Lapham III". Plus, its not just the oath of allegiance matter which was removed by the SPA but also any reference to her American citizenship. Perhaps a solution is to mention her choosing to take out American citizenship, which is obviously different from being born with it. Its not reasonable, (as per the last removal edit) to keep any and all reference to her USA Citizenship completely out of the Blp. CONTEXTKID (talk) 16:17, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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