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Line of Succession to the British Throne

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Despite his father's marriage being morganatic in Roumania, would it still be legal, for example, when it comes to the succession to the British throne? Obviously, it's no big deal, but if so, shouldn't his descendants be included in the British line of succession too? Morhange 17:59, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Was he and/or are his descendants in the Line of Succession to the British Throne no matter how far down the line they are? Danishjaveed (talk) 03:48, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hohenzollerin

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Since the court verdict hasn't been appealed (to date), shouldn't thise article be called Carol Hohenzollerin? GoodDay 23:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Surname

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Carol Lambrino's surname was not "of Romania" in English for the same reason we don't have "Vincent of Gogh", "Charles of Gaulle", "Robert of Niro" or "Claus of Bülow". Carol wasn't "of" anything. The fact that he was given the surname "al României" on his birth certificate means just that. It is a surname. The argument it should be translated on the same basis that "von Hohenzollern" becomes "of Hohenzollern" for the Romanian royals is ridiculous. The Romanian royals belong to the House of Hohenzollern and are princes and princesses of Hohenzollern. Lil' Mouse, please stop your campaign of POV-pushing original research. Charles 14:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See my answers here and here. Lil' mouse 2 (talk) 08:29, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the entire Washington Times article:

The Washington Times

Romanian court recognizes Briton as Carol II's grandson

Ex-King Michael calls nephew's effort ploy for throne

October 31, 1995

Section: A

WORLD

BRIEFING/EASTERN EUROPE Edition: 2 Page: A14 Byline: By FROM COMBINED DISPATCHES

ALEXANDRIA, Romania - In a story better suited to 18th-century Europe than the late 20th century, a middle-aged Englishman who is the grandson of Romania's philandering King Carol II won the right this month to style himself a prince. "Paul Philip of Hohenzollern . . . also known as Prince Paul of Romania" is how his British passport describes the man who bested his uncle, Romania's ex-King Michael, in a dingy Romanian courtroom here this month in a struggle for recognition as a legitimate heir to the prewar king of Romania.

The local lawyer for Michael of Hohenzollern, who left the throne in a hurry when Romania fell to communism in 1947 and now resides in Switzerland, vowed to appeal the Oct. 13 ruling, snorting that "this little court in Alexandria [outside Bucharest] is not used to dealing with important cases."

Prince Paul, a Washington resident in the early 1980s and friend of Britain's Duchess of York, hopes the outcome of his three-year court case will heal the rift with his estranged relations among the crowned heads of Europe, said a spokesman.

"We are not disputing that Michael is the real king at all," said the spokesman. "He was legitimate heir and was crowned. What we do dispute is the fact that other royal families in Europe have never accepted Paul's claim [to be their legitimate kin]. . . . The decision of the court has put things straight."

What the Romanian court did was recognize a 1955 decision by a court in Lisbon, where Carol II died in exile, that accepted Mircea Grigore Lambrino, Paul's father and Michael's older half-brother, as a legitimate son of Carol II.

Michael, whom many Romanians still regard as their true leader, restored respect to a throne undermined by his skirt-chasing father, who fled Romania with his mistress Elena Lupescu. As a dashing young man, Michael played a key role in a 1944 coup to depose fascists and switch Romania to the Allied side in the dying days of World War II.

Michael's friends and lawyers refer to Paul as Paul Philip Lambrino. Lambrino is his grandmother's maiden name.

Ioana Zoe "Zizi" Lambrino was the comely daughter of a landowner who captured the roving heart of Carol, then Romania's crown prince, 77 years ago. In 1918, the heir to the throne left his post in the army, grabbed Zizi and fled across the Black Sea from her home in Constanta to Odessa.

There, with strangers as witnesses, they married in a Russian Orthodox Church.

The marriage appalled Carol's father, King Ferdinand, and the union was annulled in January 1919. But it was too late. A year later, Zizi gave birth to Paul's father - who should be called Carol Mircea Grigore Hohenzollern of Romania, according to the "little court" here.

The birth certificate listed only his mother, Zizi, with a blank where the father's name should have been.

Carol II acknowledged that the boy was his.

"The child that you bear is mine," says a letter from Carol to Zizi dated 1920. Few doubt that Mircea was Carol's son and that Paul is therefore Carol's grandson.

The question was whether the marriage was legal and Mircea was legitimate or a royal bastard, and here the controversy thickens.

Since Mircea is still alive - he lives in Britain - he could claim to be the oldest living descendant of King Carol II, calling into question the succession that leads to Michael.

Because Michael has only daughters and females cannot succeed, that brings Paul into the frame as a pretender to a throne that no longer exists but is still revered by many Romanians.

Paul, a French-born art dealer and property developer, insists he has no political ambitions or designs on the Romanian throne.

"I wanted to do this for my father," Paul told the Reuters news agency outside the court in Alexandria, an agricultural town south of the capital, Bucharest.

"For me this day is important because you can't change history, but this rectifies an injustice that was made 75 years ago. . . . My father is 75. He has got cancer," said the newly recognized prince.

His interests also extend to a fabulous royal art collection.

Paul and his green-eyed, raven-haired companion, American Lia Triff, have a mental catalog of art works they want returned to the real owners, "the people of Romania."

The couple - he describes her as his "fiancee," a label she rejects in favor of "bodyguard" - cut a figure in the Bucharest social scene, she in her dramatic gowns and jewels and he upstaging rival members of the royal family.

The government fears Michael, who drew crowds estimated at up to a million when he returned triumphantly to Bucharest at Easter 1992. So determined was it to prevent a repeat that last year Michael was held at the airport and effectively expelled.

Paul insists he is no politician but gives a less than firm "no comment" when asked if he would like to be king.

"I don't make politics, but if Romanians in the future choose to hold a referendum on whether they want a monarchy or republic, then we will have to look at it then," he said.

Lil' mouse 2 (talk) 08:53, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That says NOTHING of a surname "of Romania". Charles 15:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What are they trying to say then? “But it was too late. A year later, Zizi gave birth to Paul's father - who should be called Carol Mircea Grigore Hohenzollern of Romania, according to the "little court" here.” - dwc lr (talk) 15:55, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They are trying to say that he should have been born a prince. But even then I question the name format they use (the Romanian royals used a form of "of Hohenzollern"). Hohenzollern isn't a middle name, it indicates some sort of surname and "of Romania" is indicative of a territorial designation. The newspaper doesn't support "of Romania" as a surname and it also shouldn't be quoted as to what form of "Hohenzollern" "should" have been used, just that it might have existed in one form or another (von Hohenzollern, Hohenzollern, de Hohenzollern, we cannot determine from this source). It's like calling a Prussian Prince "Hohenzollern of Prussia", it's not a construction which was used, it's an inventive method of making a grand show. After all, royalty is grand and if it were not for the fact that Carol was a king's son, this wouldn't be in the paper, so I imagine an American newspaper, no matter how esteemed, is going to play it up. My favourite test to see if newspapers "get it" with royalty is the "Princess Diana" test. Charles 16:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They talking about the man’s name and they translate his surname to “of Romania” per the court ruling. - dwc lr (talk) 16:29, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It does nothing of the sort. The name "Hohenzollern of Romania" did not appear in any court ruling. This article precedes the time when Carol was given the surname "al României" on his amended birth certificate. They are talking what they think "should" have happened, not what did happen and not what is fact. Further comment is at AN/I. Charles 16:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article should be moved to Carol Hohenzollerin. GoodDay (talk) 19:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion is about content, not about the article title. Carol is known mostly as Carol Lambrino as far as it has been shown. Charles 19:52, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes and it’s been shown English sources use “of Romania” when mentioning his surname. - dwc lr (talk) 20:03, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Save it for elsewhere, you speak nothing as to the verifiability and context of your sources. Charles 20:14, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Could we sacrafice some of those names, so the opening paragraph won't be so difficult to read? It's rather bloated people. GoodDay (talk) 20:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They appear elsewhere in other articles and that is the issue (the fact that they appear anywhere in the article and what should they say). I am perfectly fine with the lead of this article saying Carol Lambrino, styled/self-styled as HRH Prince Carol of Romania with the other names elsewhere mentioned as Carol Lambrino, Carol Hohenzollern and Carol al României. That is what we are trying to determine. Charles 20:14, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
He is mentioned in English sources with the surname Lambrino, Hohenzollern and of Romania it has been determined. If it hasn’t please provide some sources. - dwc lr (talk) 20:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, one source calls him Prince Carol and is a literal sloppy translation and the other uses "Hohenzollern of Romania", not "of Romania" and it also predates the birth certificate and speaks of "should haves" not of facts, something you have not addressed at all. Charles 20:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Carol's surname: he inherits the surname of his father, which was "al Romaniei" since the Romanian Royal House had lost the right to bear the name "Hohenzollern" during World War I. And since this is a Royal House name, it follows that it is translatable into English - to put to rest Charles' concerns. Sure, Carol Mircea is no prince, but he bears the Royal House name of his father. And even if it weren't the Royal House surname, it is still translatable because there is no hard and fast rule re: name translations -- if there were, Charles would have been able to reference it. Without such a reference, there is no rule, only POV's, some (i.e. the referenced ones) worthiers than others, so the surname is translatable. As to the Hohenzollern part of his surname provided by the Washington Times, it is also correct, since this is Carol's last name in the EU countries where the Portuguese and French courts decisions are recognized -- Carol does not bear the "al Romaniei"/"of Romania" surname in those countries, only "Hohenzollern." So for completeness' sake his surname is "Hohenzollern" in EU and "al Romaniei"/"of Romania" in Romania. The newspaper simply collated, put them together, which is ok. So there is no issue of reliability with Washington Times. Lil' mouse 2 (talk) 20:39, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Carol's birth certificate gives a dash for his father's surname. Carol didn't inherit a house name, since he was not given the title of prince. The Romanian government can't give out titles or house names, so it gave him a surname. Also, the convention for not translating surnames exists for all of the example surnames not translated. Note also all of the people who are "of Savoy" with the surname "di Savoia". The Romanian courts did not combine any surnames. The birth certificate does not say "Hohenzollern al României". The Washington Times does not provide a surname. At all. You are hanging on by your fingernails here and you are wrong and none of your "sources" support you. Charles 20:45, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That was my last reply here on this matter. This issue covers content in multiple articles and is being centralized at WT:ROYALTY. Fair warning, if you want me to see it to prove me wrong, post it there. Charles 20:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are simply wrong. Washington Times provides a combined surname "Hohenzollern of Romania." Their article header says combined dispatches. The former surname is valid in EU countries, the latter in Romania. Unless you can reference your POV's, all of your unreferenced edits on this matter will be reverted per WP:V policies. Lil' mouse 2 (talk) 20:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See the replies here. Lil' mouse 2 (talk) 09:08, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Carol's surname is Hohenzollern without the noble predicate of "von". He is not "of Romania" He was not given the title of prince- only a rendering of the royal family's surname- a surname he was not even given by his father.I vonH (talk) 06:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed with the first half of your statement: his surname is "Hohenzollern" without "of"/"von" in the EU countries less Romania. In Romania, however, it is "al Romaniei" ("of Romania"), per his birth certificate and English language sources. In neither situation Carol's surname is a title, as the courts, especially the Republican ones (e.g. French, Portuguese, Romanian), cannot bestow or decide upon aristocratic titles. Lil' mouse 2 (talk) 18:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can the neutrality tag be removed from this article now surely the issue is resolved. - dwc lr (talk) 20:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, it is not resolved. I am waiting for more uninvolved and unbiased opinions. Charles 20:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

POV template

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What is being done to resolve the issue when can the template be removed. - dwc lr (talk) 22:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WT:ROYALTY. Charles 22:48, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 20:23, 5 April 2013 (UTC) (non-admin closure)[reply]

Carol Lambrino → Carol Hohenzollern – Discussions above could show a consensus in favour of this name, it's the surname he would have preferred himself, we alread have his son at Paul-Phillipe Hohenzollern. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 10:13, 29 March 2013 (UTC) PatGallacher (talk) 02:16, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. Although he had his name legally changed to Hohenzollern, Wikipedia properly conveys such information in the article (and it's there) but Wikipedia's bios are titled based on what name people are most likely to look the person up under. Most references to him I've seen call him "Carol Lambrino" while explaining his legal right to the Hohenzollern surname. Old discussions here to the contrary were, in any case, inconclusive.FactStraight (talk) 18:21, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reply As a general rule common name may apply, but in this case this person, although encyclopedic, is far from being a household name, and as a recently deceased person with children who are still alive some WP:BLP principles apply. PatGallacher (talk) 14:50, 27 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • The Wikipedia principle that "BLP applies to all material about living persons anywhere on Wikipedia, hiincluding talk pages, edit summaries, user pages, images, and categories. It does not apply to the deceased or to corporations, but see below for advice regarding those areas." can be found here. But as Carol Lambrino's death occurred more than two years ago -- the period of time BLP itself says is the max that could justify invoking BLP principles -- I cannot see how any of the exceptions which call for BLP standards apply to this bio or should do so. FactStraight (talk) 03:49, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The obits I looked at don't mention anything about him being a Hohenzollern. See The Telegraph or AP. Kauffner (talk) 11:32, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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