Talk:Carmelit

Deleted infobox

Beacuse the railinfo was for Eurostar...--81.234.125.75 (talk) 21:28, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

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I don't understand the comment that the "masada" station is named for Masada. Clearly, this cannot be true, as the historical site is called מצדה, Mezada in Hebrew, not "masada". In reality, the "masada" station is named after the "masada" street next to it. I don't know what the street name refers to. Is it a name given by the British and later adopted by Israel? There must be some interesting story behind it.

BTW, if we mentioned Masada, why not also mention Paris, which is arguably more relevant? The Paris Square, and its caremlit station, was supposedly (from what I heared) named after France's capital in thanks for the contribution of French companies in building the Carmelit.

Nyh 29 June 2005 09:46 (UTC)

Now people are starting to translate other station names, like Bnei Zion ("sons of Zion") and Ha'neviim ("the prophets"). These translations look out of place to me: these station names do not actually carry any literal meaning that needs to be translated. The Bnei Zion station was not named after some generic "sons of Zion" and the Haneviim station has nothing to do with prophets. Instead, the Bnei Zion station is named after the Bnei Zion Hospital next to it, and this hospital was named after the Bnei Zion organization, which its relationship with "sons of Zion" needs to be explained in its own article. Similarly, the neviim station is named after a street by that name, not after the prophets. The Massada station was named after the street that itself perhaps was named after the historic site. The only station, in my opinion, that carries an original meaning that should be translated, is Paris Square - this is a new square built when they built the Carmelit, and it was named in thanks to the French company that built the Carmelit (as far as I heard).

Nyh 07:53, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Network Map Graphic - Mistake

Hanevi'im station is incorrectly spelled as Manevi'im (i.e. the H is incorrectly spelled as M). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by EngineeringCat (talk • contribs) 06:31, 29 December 2006 (UTC). --EngineeringCat 06:32, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Rail / other info?

Can anyone from Haifa (or elsewhere) provide information about the rail itself? Is this standard gauge or some other size? How are the cables powered - at one station or at both? How many passengers per car? What is the payment method - cards, tokens, paper tickets? --Eliyahu S ^Talk 00:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The List of track gauges gives 1,980 mm (6 ft 5+19⁄20 in), hence a clarification is badly needed. Is some one able to resolve this? My guess is that 1,980 mm was the track gauge prior to the renovation. Peter Horn User talk 02:56, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Make that 6 ft 5+15⁄16 in. Peter Horn User talk 03:19, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

1980 mm

• About rail gauge being 1980 mm. Is that the original definition? Or is it a description of a more common 6 ft 6 in (1,981 mm) rail gauge?

1,980 millimetres (77.952756 in) -- conversion calculation

1,981 millimetres (77.992126 in) -- conversion calculation

78 inches (1,981.2000 mm) -- conversion calculation from 6ft6in

The source Railway Station Lists says about Carmelit: 11. HAIFA CARMELIT SUBWAY Gauge 1.980m. How is this the original definition for the line? We must take a good look at the source.

The source is an overview of Israeli railway lines, compiled from various sources (dated 1914–1997). Given this history, and the fact that Palestine was British ruled within that period, it is very well possible or even likely that gauges originally were defined in imperial units.

The source's intro says: Gauge 4' 8+1⁄2" unless noted.. After that, all (other) gauges are written in metric not imperial. For this, I assume that those mm sizes are or may be conversions, not original definitions. In this 1.980m case, it may be a conversion with a rounding difference. It is the fourth digit that is rounded, which is a common practice for measurements (not for definitions though). Btw, if this rounding process would be applied correctly, that final zero should have been omitted (1.98m).

I tend to conclude that the line was defined & build as a 6ft6in gauge, and that a source converted that into 1.980m with a rounding. As long as we have no other sources, we should read this as being defined a 6ft6in gauge (1981mm), and describe as "1980mm" (not 1981mm).

The {{RailGauge}} should show "1980 mm (6 ft 6 in)", and categorize under Category:6 ft 6 in gauge railways. -DePiep (talk) 19:06, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

The lead says "build from 1956–...". That would be by Israel for this rail. Does not conclude on measurement used by Israel (could be metric, imperial). -DePiep (talk) 22:11, 4 May 2014 (UTC) (tweaked for readibility. -DePiep (talk) 04:51, 9 May 2014 (UTC))

• Another detail of the source Railway Station Lists. In total 15 lines are described, based on 17 sources labeled a, b, ... t3. Most lines and stations have references to these sources: Lodd f [Ludd pl]. But three lines do not: 14. former military lines, 15. freight lines, and 11. Carmelit.

This can mean that Carmelit (or its gauge) is not in these sources, but was added in 2004 for completeness. IOW the 2004 report made a less-sourced estimation/conversion. That would mean the "1980mm" was more like original research. Carmelit is an isolated track, so might be less common to be included in reports.

If we accept this as the background, we can conclude that "1980mm" is not the original definition (as track & stock were ordered), but a late description. We could overrule this single source, and write 1,981 mm (6 ft 6 in) (not 1980 at all). This does not conclude on whether the 1956 definition was metric or imperial; we can follow Israel standard (writing as metric). -DePiep (talk) 05:17, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• Concluding: for now, we accept "1980 mm" to mean the "6 ft 6in" gauge. Will be added to {{RailGauge}}. New sources can change that. -DePiep (talk) 11:32, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Questionable link?

I have unlinked the name "Masada" as I am not altogether sure that it is legitimate. The station's (and presumably the street's) name is written "מסדה" in Hebrew, whereas the ancient fortress town's is written "מצדה" — one letter different; one has a samech where the other has a tsadi. Are these indeed the same name? Does the street's name refer to the ancient fortress town? If so, by all means reinstate the link. Otherwise, it would be interesting to know where the name with the samech came from.Kelisi (talk) 22:45, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

According to the Haifa Street Guide, the street was named after the foreign transliteration of "מצדה". But you were right to remove the link, as we don't normally link street names to the person or entity after which they were named. I went ahead and removed the links to a few others. If and when we have an article about the street itself (as we do on he-wiki), a link to that page should be added. Owen× ☎ 22:53, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Shortest subway?

The article describes Carmelit as the shortest subway system in the world, whereas Tünel in Istanbul is shorter in distance. If the reason is that Tünel is a funicular line, Carmelit is also listed under funicular lines as referenced in this article.

Wouldn’t it be more accurate to call Tünel the shortest? 78.177.142.20 (talk) 06:54, 4 July 2024 (UTC)