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Archive 1

Net worth discrepancy & World's Richest Person

  • The introductory paragraph says this:

Recent gains in his shares in the America Movil group are largely responsible for his recent increase in wealth, boosting his fortune to an estimated 49.0 billion dollars compared with the estimated fortune of 59.2 billion dollars for Bill Gates.

But the Net worth in the infobox says that he's worth 67.8 billion. So which is true? I suggest that we follow Forbes Magazine's Billionaires list as a standard. Check it out here: http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/10/07billionaires_The-Worlds-Billionaires_Rank.html

--Pavithran 15:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

  • While a Mexican source can be suspected of bias, both the Wall Street Journal and Fortune magazine are now claiming that Carlos Slim is the world's richest man. Both WSJ and Fortune are considered every bit as reliable as Forbes when it comes to business news. Both WSJ and Fortune cite Slim's fortune as being worth US$59 billion, not US$67 billion. Just because Forbes releases a list of billionaires every year does not mean it is somehow the only legitimate judge of who is the world's richest man. Also, just because Slim is number one in early August 2007 doesn't mean it will last. Larry Ellison overtook Gates a few years ago, but it only lasted for a few weeks—not long enough to replace Gates at the #1 spot on the annual Forbes list. --JHP 00:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Diego Gonzalez Joven

Why is this guy (User name:Diegojoven ) writheting himself in? I am not saying it is not true, I only question the relevance of "Carlos Slim also has a very close relationship with Diego Gonzalez Joven, an electrical engineering student at the St. Mary's University, Texas. Carlos Slim once said that this young talented student reminds him when he was a student at the UNAM in Mexico". What's next the name of Mr. Slim's Dog? --LS1010 13:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Someone needs to put the fact he is going to put most of his fortune into social initiatives in here

He said it today. I am too lazy to do it myself with referencing etc... Nick

Huh, I think he said he was putting in something like $10 bil. So not most. Dunno someone need to check that.

Major rewrite 28 June, 2006

I have rewritten the article taking most of the information which was there already. I have also changed his photograph. I gave it some structure, and removed great tracts which are more relevant to Telmex than Carlos Slim personally, although I left some references to Telmex and monopoly charging, citing his political influences.


I also fixed some bodged formatting which had masked the paragraphs about his father. His children only get passing mentions, as more detailed information on them should be part of a Wiki entry for same

As I do not know the dates, someone needs to update the section of his directorships and achievements with information, and perhaps presenting it in a list form with from-to dates, and sorting the list into chronoligical orderOhconfucius 06:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Why should the article not show the fact that there is a lot of resentment and bitterness? I mean, the article must be neutral in its wording, but the fact that he is resented must be shown. Additionally, Slim Helú said some very interesting things to Forbes about his "monopolies". This should also be added... Hari Seldon 03:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Carlos' Sons

I don't see his son's name on the Altria article. --Gbleem 17:46, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

What position does his son have at Altria? Chadlupkes 18:02, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Move

Don't see a reason why he shouldn't be at Carlos Slim. —Cantus…☎ 02:41, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

His full name is Carlos Slim Helú, right? And since Carlos Slim forwards to this article, I don't see a reason why it should be changed. Basseq 19:12, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

  • In English and non-Mexican tradition, his name is Carlos Slim. But according to Mexican naming format, the mother's surname "Helu" is added at the end of his name --> Carlos Slim Helu. So it is both, it just depends on whether you use Mexican or non-Mexican format. But Slim is the official paternal surname from his father, his father's father, and his father's father's father's father and so on... Prince Cadmus II 05:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Non-Objective and Badly-Written Paragraph

"He is also the third richest man on earth mostly because he got the Telefonos de Mexico company as a bargain from Mexican ex-president Carlos Salinas De Gortari due to their friendship, he has also made his fortune with that company charging extra fees to every family who owns a telephone in Mexico, charging a very expensive service. An example of this fraud is: An average telephone service in U.S.A. or Canada costs around 25 dollars per month, with unlimited local phone calls, when in Mexico cost around 200 pesos = 20 U.S. dollars for just 30 local calls and every extra minute is charged in the monthly bill."

This is a very negative outlook on the man, and I'd like to see sources on this information. Are he and De Gortari friends? To what extent? Has he been indicted on charges of fraud, or is this just an opinion? Did anyone take into account the fact that costs are likely more in Mexico than the US? I suggest a re-examination of this paragraph, and at least a rewrite, as the grammar is less than desirable. (e.g. "The source of most of his wealth is the telecommunications company Telefonos de Mexico, acquired at a bargain from president Carlos Salinas De Gortari, a close friend. He has attracted criticism from some for alledged gouging of telecommunications prices, as the services offered do not equal similarly-priced options in the United States.") Basseq 19:22, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and made the change. Final copy: "The source of most of his wealth is the telecommunications company Telefonos de Mexico, acquired at a bargain from Mexican president and friend Carlos Salinas De Gortari. He has attracted criticism from some for allegedly gouging the price telecommunications, as the services offered to the public do not equal similarly-priced options in the United States." 24.125.163.70 19:10, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

IMHO, that whole section is NPOV; I've tagged it as such. Dweekly 18:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

USING HIS MOTHER'S LAST NAME.

His last name is SLIM, not Helu. To refer to him as Helu or Mr. Helu is say that he is illegitimate. In Latin/Hispanic surnames there are usually two last names with NO hypen between the two last names. The first of the two last names is his father's surname which passes on to Carlos and then the second of the two last names is his mother's surname.

this is hard to believe

Why isn't he on the list in other years? he seems to have come out of no where.

Dear unsigned, anonymous, editor: Please remember Mexico suffered a series of economic crisis in 1994, 1988, 1987, 1986, 1985, 1984, 1983, 1982, 1976, and 1973. These crisis seem to have stopped in 1997. Carlos Slim acquired Telmex until early 1994, so this should explain why this man's wealth did not begin to grow until the Mexican economy got fixed... As the Mexican economy continues to get better, as it has since 2000, expect more Mexican billionaires in the Forbes list! Hari Seldon 04:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
The economy has improved from 1995 to 2001, stalled then started growing although at a much slower pace than 1995-2001. --FateClub 16:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I understand this now that he has been in the media. A recent AP article said his wealth increased by 19 billion last year more than anyone else and since Gates and Buffet are focusing on giving there money way there is a good chance he will be the richest man in the world. Time to use to hearing the name Carlos Slim Helu.


Addendum from a different reader: it would be interesting to demonstrate how the holdings control the various corporations. For example he controls Grupo Carso (which is "just" a holding company) which downstream controls Telmex -- however Telmex trades on its own on the Mexican and US exchanges too. A percentage of ownership at each level equates to control. I think this type of control amplifies more than direct ownership Sr. Slim's net worth as each component has escalated in value.

Jewish?

Is Helú a Jew? It says that his father was a Lebanese Christian (though no source is given), but we have very little information about his mother, only that she was the "daughter of [a] prosperous Mexican merchant." So is it possible that his mother was a Jew or came from a Jewish family (either Sephardi or Ashkenazi)? Do we have any more information about his ethnic/religious background or that of his mother? --172.146.128.109 21:11, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Helu is Lebanese-MariaLaGitana

¿Hay algún problema si Carlos Slim Helú es judio o no? --User: Morris237 11:41, 14 de abril del 2007 (UTC -8:00)

Es un problema decir que lo es cuando no lo es 189.141.54.43 18:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)ZealotKommunizma

Este es la wikipedia en ingles, por favor, habla en ingles o habla a la wikipedia español.Cameron Nedland 20:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Helu is not a Jew. His family comes from a village at the very northern tip of Southern Lebanon, a town called Jezzine. He is neither a Jew nor a Turk like some ridiculous idiots keep insisting by changing his family background to Turkish or Jewish. He is a Maronite Catholic whose father was born in the area of Lebanon under Ottoman Empire occupation, this does not by any chance mean he was a Turk at all. We need to stop allowing anonymous users editing this page. Prince Cadmus II 14:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

As usual, Jews and turks try to make famous Lebanese arab christian belong to them, he is Lebanese Arab from both sides. He is Mexican Lebanese Arab christian and thats all!!

Racist comment removed, check archive to verify.

yeah after few days some jews will say nasser al-kharafi is jew lol!

Migrants to Mexico

There is more of them..almost all are Lebanese and everyone is 1st generation Mexicans. I wonder how it makes the others feel who's family has been there for generations that people can come to your country and do better than you. [1] -MariaLaGitana —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 21:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC).


Thank god Mexico is a Jus soli country, and most people don't care much about this kind of useless questions! --LS1010 22:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually they're not first generation, some have been there for over 100 years.

Mother

His mother is lebanese too

Slim Haddad married Linda Helu, daughter of another prosperous Lebanese merchant, and had six children. Carlos Slim Helu was the fifth of the six children. Carlos credits his father as his mentor in business, retailing and finance. Julian Slim Haddad died in 1952 , leaving his family a moderately prosperous economic base from which Carlos launched his successful financial career.

http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:_QfzqW2jUVoJ:www.lebaneselobby.org/lebanese/Carlos%2520Slim.htm+Linda+Hel%C3%BA+lebanese&hl=de&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=de

I'm pretty sure his mother is Mexican, I guess we have to ask Slim himself??

Slim is a son of a migrant and so is Slim's wife. They migrated from Lebanon. Of course Slim and his wife were both born in Mexico so they are Lebanese Mexicans.Prince Cadmus II 14:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Slim

"Slim" has got to be the all-time best name in the world for a non-English person to have but I think the article should be consistent as to whether it refers to him as Carlos or as Slim. Haplolology 18:59, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Christian

Carlos Slim Helu's family comes from a Native Christian community of Lebanon, the Maronite Catholic Church. Everytime I keep updating his family section on the site, some idiot keeps removing the title "Christian" from the reference to his father. His father Julian was a Lebanese Christian, a Maronite Catholic. This is his native title to his homeland. He was born in the Christian autonomous region of Mount Lebanon (the precursor to the modern Lebanese republic), which had been handed autonomous power under the Ottoman Empire (not to be confused with the Turkish Republic, nor any "Arab" republic)

He was thus neither a Turk, nor explicitly Arab. People were called by their religious sect and the land they come from. He was an inhabitant of Lebanon, of the Christian Mutasarrifiyya (governorate) of Mount Lebanon, (a region under the Vilayet of Beirut) and he was a Christian. He is therefore a Lebanese Christian. Please stop trying to change this. Prince Cadmus II 03:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Citation

This article has been cited by Information Week.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=200900492

does that mean it gets a special template?


useful?

hi. found it this morning. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ft/20070706/bs_ft/fto070620071924033550;_ylt=Av3svwHJrQ_aF6iiLDgpOTTMWM0F

lebanese ancestory

yah , i added he is LEBANESE MEXICAN becasue it previosly said he is MEXICAN which he isnt because he has LEBANESE desendant and no MEXICAN blood, his family are migrants from LEBANON, sorry for being critical, but i had to point this out.

I've deleted Lebanese Mexican from the beginning of the article because I consider it redundancy.

Assyrian ancestry

I got a source here, claiming he's an Assyrian [2]. Now, him being Assyrian, does not necessarily have to be true. But, let's get one thing clear: Lebanese, is not an ethnicity. It is a country, with many different peoples living in it. Assyrians, are one ethnic group in Lebanon. Maronite, is not an ethnicity. It is a Syriac Church denomination. I repeat: Maronite, is not an ethnicity.

  • Rubbish! Maronite IS an ethnicity. The meaning of ethnicity is this: "An ethnic group or ethnicity is a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, either on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry, or recognition by others as a distinct group, or by common cultural, linguistic, religious, or territorial traits." This can mean Lebanese or Maronite... or even Lebanese Maronite. You are confusing ethnicity with RACE. Prince Cadmus II 06:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

In fact, lots of Maronites, have Assyrian ancestry, though, they are very fond of denying their Assyrian roots, they do indeed have Assyrian ancestors. However, the Maronites have been intermixed with other ethnic groups, but there are still Assyrians who are members of the Maronite Church. Now, please, if you're going to revert, at the very least, provide better sources than the one I have, giving factual and credible information about his ancestry. Otherwise, leave the source until then. EliasAlucard|Talk 16:25 11 Jul, 2007 (UTC)


I agree with about about everythink except that socalled maronite are intermixed, this is just a myth, Maronite and arab or some other ethnics have never been intermixed.
Lebanese = Nationality
Maronite = A christian demomination
  • Over 95% of socalled Maronite Lebanon are of Assyrian descend, they moved to mount Lebanon in 5th Century from Northwest Assyria now known as Mardin. <--- THIS IS ALSO a MYTH. Where are your sources? You are confusing Mardin with Maradites. Prince Cadmus II 06:04, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
  • One thing is for sure, every village name in Mount Lebanon Province is an Assyrian name, now why would an arab or some other people name Mount Lebanon with Assyrian name if they are not Assyrian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.196.91.16 (talk • contribs)
Got any credible source for your claims? — EliasAlucard|Talk 23:31 11 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
Maronites are not just of Assyrian ancestry, but many others as indicated in the Meronite page. I think its unfair to label just Assyrian. I have removed it for now. Chaldean 01:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not saying Maronites are 'pure Assyrians' — they're not. However, they do have Assyrian ancestors. That's all. Now, do we have any other sources about his ancestry? For being the richest guy in the world, not much is known about him. I don't think he considers himself Assyrian anyway. — EliasAlucard|Talk 03:54 12 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
I don't think he considers himself Assyrian anyway. Then I dont think we should label him as such. However, they do have Assyrian ancestors. - so do many Iraqi Arabs too :I. That stuff can be discussed on each page respectively (Maronites, Arabs) but shouldn't be a issue in every page, like this one. Chaldean 02:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
If the guy is Assyrian, he is Assyrian. If he's not Assyrian, then he's not Assyrian. Look, a pure ethnic Swede (for example), if he moves to America early in his life and spends most of his life there, doesn't matter; he's still a Swede. It's the same here. Whatever his opinion on the matter, doesn't matter. If his parents were Assyrians and adherents of the Maronite Church, then he is an Assyrian. Now, what we need to do is to get some serious sources about his ethnicity. — EliasAlucard|Talk 05:37 12 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
How on earth do you get from Lebanon to Assyria? Lebanese blood if you trace the roots consist originally of the people who inhabited that land. The region of Assyria is primarily in Northern Iraq and surroundings. What does this have to do with Lebanon? Lebanon's physical land was settled by the Phoenicians/Canaanites. Most modern day Lebanese share this common ancestor, mixed with those who invaded the land over time. Invaders didnt settle the land, they governed it and mixed in with some of the population. The Maronite Church belongs to original Church of Antioch, of which the Assyrian Church of the East itself shares a common ancestor. Assyrian is one dialect of the Aramaic Language which the Maronite Church has its ancestry. The two are related, but are different. Sure there may be a few Assyrian refugees in Lebanon but you cannot be using this unreliable website from some obscure place on the internet to even postulate that Carlos Slim Helu's family are Assyrian. Maybe he may share a common ancestor with them from 2000 years ago, but then you may as well call everybody Assyrian. Over time, yes, through the mix of people in Lebanon, the Lebanese people will turn into an ethnicity, that is how things branch out and separate. Otherwise you may as well go back 10 million years and say there is no such thing as ethnicity. Prince Cadmus II 02:21, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, you see, the ancient Assyrians conquered what is today known as Lebanon (I believe it was Tiglath-Pileser III). There has been an Assyrian presence there for a very long time. This "Phoenician" ethnicity is bullshit. It's based solely on the fact that that's where the Phoenicians lived. The Assyrian empire deported and relocated several kinds of people wherever they conquered, and they assimilated many of them into becoming Assyrians. Canaanites, to my knowledge, were wiped out by the Jews. Maronites, are part of a Church identity, of which many were Assyrians. This Phoenician claim is ridiculous. The Maronites were Aramaic-speaking before the Arabs took over Lebanon. They moved to the mountains. Here, read this Also, there are lots of Assyrians in Lebanon. For instance, I'm an Assyrian originally from Lebanon. You can deny your Assyrian roots all you like, doesn't matter. You don't want to be Assyrians? Fine, but stop pretending you're some kind of Phoenicians, because you're not. This is known as Phoenicianism. I'm not going to force some Assyrian identity on you. Just letting you know that your claim of being Phoenicians/Caananites, is based on lies, not historical facts. — EliasAlucard|Talk 23:02 23 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

Elias, you have not stated any facts anywhere. One moment you propose that He is Assyrian by terms of blood, yet you have no proof of his genetic makeup, then the next moment you change it to his religion being Assyrian Christian when he is really a Maronite. You have no proof at all that he is an "Assyrian Christian", yet are quick to dispose of Phoenicia as "bullshit". You are forcing your heritage on others. There are hundreds of thousands of Maronites in Lebanon and only a few Assyrians, every Assyrian I have met so far has fair skin and fair eyes and fair coloured hair, except a few. The majority of Maronites are darker in features with exceptions to those who inherited Crusader blood. The Maronites spoke SYRIAC, SERTA SYRIAC is what they wrote. After 431 the Syriac language and script split into eastern and western branches. The western branch was called Serta and developed into two varieties, Jacobite and Melchite. Vigorous in pen graphics, Serta writing shows that, unlike the early Aramaic and Hebrew scripts, characters are fastened to a bottom horizontal. If you didn't realise this then I suggest you go back to school. West Syriac itself contains vowel letters above the characters to denote vowel changes on those consonants. These letters themselves are ORIGINALLY FROM THE PHOENICIAN ALPHABET YOU GOOSE! WHY IS THIS ONLY IN WEST SYRIAC(MARONITE/JACOBITE) SCRIPT AND NOT IN THE EASTERN ESTRANGELA SCRIPT THAT THE ASSYRIANS USE???? BECAUSE THEY TOOK IT FROM ORIGINAL PHOENICIAN ALPHABET!

The Maronites did speak Syriac and you tell me it's because of that that they are Assyrians? The Maronites speak Arabic now, does that make them Arabs? I speak English now, does that make me an Anglo-Saxon even though I know I'm clearly not?

Like most Lebanese people, the Maronite ethnic background is a mix of Phoenician, Assyrian, Greek, Israelite, Roman, Ghassanids (Arab), European Crusaders, Turks, and French. To single them out as "Assyrian" is narrow. It is the first settlers of the land who have more input in the genetic pool. Invaders only added to this. This is why people would say "Phoenician" because "Phoenician" is just them going back as far as possible to the earliest settlers, their ancestors. The Maronite Church in present day Lebanon has been there since Phoenicia and to separate it out and pretend that they originally hailed from Assyria is really narrow minded and misleading, just because they took on the new language of their conquerors.

Please leave your logic to idiots. Just because you read propaganda websites regarding denial of other people's historical background, it doesn't give you the right to persistently bash it into others on Wikipedia. The Assyrians, as they are known today, are the Eastern branch of Syriac Christianity. Original Phoenician alphabet characters were adapted into West Syriac script which is used by the Syrian Orthodox Church and Maronite Churches. Syriac became the language after Phoenician-Canaanite was phased out. The Jews did not wipe them out, they blended in with them, as did the Assyrians and their language, which was just a variation of Aramaic to begin with anyway. You have a really distorted view of history man. Just because an army conquers a land, it doesnt mean they wiped out the population. Can you say Iraqis now are all White Anglo Saxon Americans now that Iraq was invaded? This is precisely where your logic is leading people to believe, it is really DUMB! If Carlos Helu is an Assyrian (by race), then why is it you keep changing his RELIGION to Assyrian Christian? Are you then denying the fact that most people in Jezzine are actually Maronite Catholic? And you tell me you're originally from Lebanon? Are you blind or just plain stupid? Would you even like to try convince me that I'm a computer and not really a human too?

Why are you basing your stupid ideas on a bloody website that cannot even correct its grammar to an educated standard? Come on man Prince Cadmus II 01:37, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

There is exactly nothing, that says you are Phoenician, except of course, your own revisionism. Here are the facts: you Maronites used to speak Aramaic, and you still follow Syriac Christianity (where do you think Syriac comes from, you moron?). The Phoenicians, just like the Aramaeans, don't exist as a people any longer. They became Assyrians during the rule of the Assyrian empire, and its mass deportations. You want facts? Here, you got facts. Your only claim of being Phoenician is based on the fact that you live where the ancient Phoenicians lived. Sorry, but that's not enough. For all I care, the Assyrians in Iraq could be, and are most likely, more Phoenician than you are. What makes you think the Phoenicians as an ethnic homogeneous group survived the Neo-Assyrian Empire? Weren't they destroyed by the Roman Empire in the Punic Wars? Probably. Stop ridiculing yourself. You are not Phoenicians. You are most likely, way more Assyrian, than you are, Phoenician. I didn't find any serious grammar errors. And even if that's the case, what does that have to do with the validity of the claim, him being an Assyrian? Oh and by the way, the Assyrians didn't speak Aramaic originally. They spoke Akkadian, but gradually started speaking Aramaic for several reasons. You really should study your own history. Chances are, you'll find out you're an Assyrian. — EliasAlucard|Talk 08:02 23 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

Are you trying to tell me your pathetic little "facts" here are coming from YOUTUBE? Who are you trying to convince here? DONKEYS? How on earth can you base stupid ideas from YOUTUBE as facts? Nobody "became" Assyrians, just because they spoke a similar language in a different dialect does not mean they were genetically replenished and suddenly like a sonic boom converted into the Assyrian genetic pool you retard!! Dude did you even go to school as a student? Your denial of Phoenicia is really an insecurity of yours. The Maronites spoke Aramaic because that was the LINGUA FRANCA of the time. There was no "Phoenician Empire" Phoenicia was a group of independent cities just like the Greek states. The Canaanite tongue existed well and the Phoenician alphabet itself was used to develop the newer alphabet of Aramaic and other alphabets. Assyrian language itself is really just the eastern dialect of Aramaic, it does not necessarily mean it had any precedence or influence over the other dialects. Maronites speak Arabic now because it is the lingua franca of the region just as Aramaic was in the time of the Assyrian Empire. So are you trying to tell me that because the Assyrians once had an empire in that region that all people are now descendants of the Assyrians and are thus Assyrian? Are you retarded man? You may as well call Lebanese descendants of the TURKS since they were ruled by the Ottoman Empire for over 400 years.. Perhaps they are really Romans from the Roman Empire? Perhaps they are all Persians as well from the Persian Empire? Maybe you'd like to say they are also Hebrews, Syrians, Israelis, Iranians, French and every other army and nation throughout history that has passed through Lebanon or attacked it. Why don't you be consistent and just say that the people of Lebanon are Lebanese? It was you who brought up the Phoenician thing so it must be a Phoenician Complex you have. I'm sorry but the Maronites had always lived in and around modern day Lebanon. When St Maroun travelled south from Antioch, he converted the Phoenicians who lived on the coast as they then moved up to safety in the Lebanon Mountains. Go and make up whatever history you like about Assyria and Iraq but it wont get any further than being published in a child's scrapbook. Why not call Assyrians in Iraq as Arabs now since they are ruled by an Arab country?? Perhaps with your extremely retarded logic you would like to rename the Assyrians as Americans now since that the Americans are ruling Iraq with their military????? You are really stupid. Prince Cadmus II 07:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

No, moron. The source is not YouTube. Do you think YouTube is the source, because that's where it's uploaded? And you call me stupid? Right... The source is Richard N. Frye. He's a scholar; an academic source. It is published in Journal of Near Eastern Studies. He knows what he's talking about, unlike Phoenician revisionists. The Assyrians in Iraq, still speak Aramaic, and they are still Christians. Unlike the Maronites, they have managed to keep the Aramaic language intact. Look, do you know what miscegenation is? Put that together with mass deportation. What do you think will become of that? "They were made Assyrians". Get it? What's your problem anyway? Why can't you just acknowledge that you have Assyrian ancestors? I mean, how impossible is that? Me personally, I don't give a shit about Lebanon any longer. You want to see yourself as Lebanese? Fine, go ahead. That country is Arabic today anyway, and the Maronites are occupied by Sunni and Shia Arabs, one step away from becoming stateless like the rest of us Assyrians. Keep up the great job, you're impressing the hell out of me. — EliasAlucard|Talk 09:22 23 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

Your source is situated on YOUTUBE, therefore the source is YOUTUBE. WIKIPEDIA doesnt give a shit about whoever this little professor is and whatever journal he writes in. If his work is situated in a journal, you can source it from that journal, but if he is the only person claiming it in the whole world, then I would hardly find that RELIABLE. You have a problem in labelling people according to your extremist views. Assyrian is only 1 branch of the Aramaic family of dialects, it does not embody the whole tree. The Maronites are situated on the other side of that tree, and since it was the Maronites/Syriacs who laid the foundations of the Arabic script, it is only right that the Arabic renaissance came from that part of the Arab world. In no part of the Lebanese constitution does it say Lebanon is Arab. Lebanon has always and always will be independent, and inclusive of all the cultures that settled there since the, (yes you guessed it), original Phoenician settlements. Archaeology does not lie my friend. And neither does genetics. Genetic testing has proven that most modern day Lebanese share an ancestor in the ancient Phoenicians (taken from well preserved Phoenician DNA from cemeteries.) Also, there is no use speaking a language that is not going to get you anywhere else other than Bible studies. Times change and so do languages, just because the Maronites adapted to newer cultures and languages for use in business and other success it does not mean that their previous one vanished, they are still the same people with the same customs. You cannot only take 1 tiny portion of Maronite history and rewrite it as "of Assyrian descend" (as your pathetic previous source states in incorrect spelling). That is just an extremist Assyrian propaganda tool (published on no other site in the world except that informal one) you provided at the beginning to harbour support for an independent Assyrian nation, trying to forge a relationship to the world's richest man (a Maronite Catholic) to a cause that he is not even faintly related to. If the Assyrians cannot get together and unite, then what does this have to do with the world's richest man? Do you think he is going to do anything for that cause? I don't think so.

  • "Over 95% of socalled Maronite Lebanon are of Assyrian descend, they moved to mount Lebanon in 5th Century from Northwest Assyria now known as Mardin." Where on earth do you get this statement from? How on earth can you even outlandishly say 95%? Who conducted this survey? If you are talking about the Mardaites that formed the Marada Armies, they were only some groups of mountain warriors who shared the same religious heritage and came to fight for the Maronites, most sources agree they were Syriac-Arameans who became Maronite Catholics. They did not make up the whole population, they merely added to it, and then launched raids against the Arab Caliphates. Where on earth do you get 95% I do not understand. The marada does not necessarily mean they hailed from Mardin. You are confusing so many different things together.

Prince Cadmus II 14:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Hey Prince Cadmus, are you trying to be stupid? Do you in all seriousness, believe that the source is YouTube, because that's where it's uploaded? I mean, do you actually believe that YouTube approves his message because they are hosting a file, someone uploaded from an academic study recording? What are you, completely dense? I've told you, the source is Journal of Near Eastern Studies. If you fast forward to exactly 14 seconds, you will see that it says in bold text, "Harvard University". Does that translate to YouTube in your retarded brain? Assyrian rule wasn't like Roman rule, or anything else. The Assyrian conquerors, invented a new deportation policy. I can give you tons of facts and sources confirming this. But what's the point? In your stubborn mind, you have decided that you are a Phoenician. Doesn't matter if you have no sources backing this up. Where are all your scientific sources, supporting your Phoenician beliefs? If you can give me proof of this, I will never call you Assyrian again. So far, I haven't seen any proof. It's the same shit with other Assyrians in different Churches. In the Chaldean Catholic Church, you'll find Assyrians claiming that they are "Chaldeans" (i.e. Neo-Babylonian), and in the Syriac Orthodox Churches, you'll find Assyrians claiming that they are Aramaeans. Right. Why should I believe you more than them? It's the same bullshit denial. Yes, Aramaic used to be the Lingua Franca. So what? It was used by non-Assyrians, but it doesn't mean that the Assyrians stopped using it once the non-Assyrians did away with the Aramaic language. Here are the facts: you are a Semitic people, you Maronites used to speak Aramaic, you follow Syriac Christianity still to this day, which makes you more than enough connected with us, ethnically. Chances are, you most likely do have some Assyrian ancestry. How much? I don't know. But you're making it sound like it's an impossibility, like you were some kind of purebreed Phoenicians. Unbelievable. Now if you don't want to be Assyrians, fine, not my problem. But I like to stick to historical facts. You can be traitors if you like and deny your Assyrian heritage. Just don't expect our help, once the Arabs take over Lebanon. And believe me, they will. — EliasAlucard|Talk 00:51 01 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
Oh and by the way, the name of Carlos Slim's father: Julián Slim Haddad Aglamaz. Are you aware of how many Assyrians are named Haddad? Try this guy: Andreas Yacob-Haddad. It's an Assyrian name for crying out loud, probably derived from Adad. Yeah, you Maronites are so Phoenician. Phoenician my ass. — EliasAlucard|Talk 03:36 01 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
Are you the idiot here? Carlis Slim's father is Julian Slim. The surname is SLIM (Selim). This word itself is Shalim, the Phoenician God of Dusk. Haddad is the surname of Julian's mother, and according to the Mexican naming system, people add their mother's surname on the end, after the father's surname. Julian Slim is therefore Julian Slim Haddad. The paternal family surname is Slim not Haddad. You are running around in circles Elias. Prince Cadmus II 06:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

RELIGIOUS BELIEF HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACIAL COMPOSITION YOU IDIOT! ETHNICALLY, the MARONITES are MARONITES NOT ASSYRIANS, the Patriarch of the Maronite Church is the Patriarch of Antioch and all the East!! Syriac Christianity is religion, not ethnicity you retard! Ethnicity involves being part of a distinct group, it has nothing to do with what ancestors they hail from. If someone converts to a religion, does that mean their whole physical appearance and chromosomes change too? No. If someone's name is Jacob does that then mean they are of Jewish blood?? No. Did you also know that surnames surfaced in Medieval times around the 10th century in the Eastern Roman Empire? What language did inhabitants of present day Lebanon speak then? Syriac. Of course their names would be either Syriac or Arabic. Once again, this refutes your whole argument of actual physical "Assyrian" lineage. Why do you keep asserting "Assyrian"? I can't see any Assyrian landmarks in Lebanon, therefore I do not believe Assyrians (as opposed to the Syriacs) had any relevant hold in Lebanon unless you can prove to me a direct GENETIC test.

Your only claim to Lebanese people really being "Assyrian" and not natives of their own land (with influences from outside) is one of extremism and rock-headed denial. Sure there may be some Assyrian genes in there, just like many other nations added to the gene pool as well, there is absolutely no reason to defy proven tests and archaeological facts.

  • What specific thing is Assyrian about Lebanon? Syriac does not mean Assyrian. Assyrian is a different dialect of Aramaic than what Syriac is, even though you can understand it!!!!
  • If someone belongs to a church that your Assyrian church is related to by religious bond only, it does not mean they are Assyrian, it just means you have common ancestors through religious teaching. Once again, this refutes your whole argument.
  • If Maronites are "Assyrian", then are they "Assyrian" by genetic blood? Or are they "Assyrian" just because they used to speak a dialect of ARAMAIC which is Serta (NOT ASSYRIAN!)
  • YOU MUST CLEARLY EXPLAIN WHAT PART OF LEBANESE MARONITES YOU CLAIM IS ASSYRIAN. You cannot use "physical" because you havent done any genetic testing. You also cannot use the "common language" trick either, because people spoke Syriac whether they were Christians or not, it was the lingua franca of the Middle East. So what else do you have apart from poorly educated propaganda off the Eastern Star News Agency, and sources that you can only prove exist on YouTube. If the source is not YouTube, then you must source it properly, and not be a google student.
  • Just because there may be some Assyrian heritage in Lebanon, it is not the only one. If the Phoenicians disappeared, then where did they disappear to? Why are modern Lebanese (Muslim and Christian alike) related GENETICALLY to the ancient Phoenicians? Lebanese people are Lebanese. Phoenicia was their motherland, the mother and first contributor to their ancestry and all the armies that passed through contributed in one way or another to their culture and/or cosmopolitan makeup. I never anywhere stated that Lebanon had absolutely no Assyrian blood whatsoever, in fact it is you who is the one labelling Maronites as really just Assyrians. That is pathetic. DONT FORGET THIS WHOLE TOPIC AROSE FROM YOU REMOVING the MARONITE CHRISTIAN label from Julian Slim Haddad Aglamaz and REPLACING it with ASSYRIAN CHRISTIAN! This is the prime example of how pathetic you are and your extremist views. Stop denying it and putting words in other peoples mouths, this reveals your deep seeded insecurities. Unlike you, we Maronites live with those around us, and if anything it is the Maronites and others who made the greatest impressions on the Arabic Renaissance and contributed largely to Arabic culture as a whole. There is no reason to live in the past, and the Maronite Church lives but asserts always that Lebanon is a separate nation with a distinct heritage different to the rest of the Arab world, and it has many many reasons to believe so. Thus, Lebanon is Lebanese, and not specifically Arab or any other nonsense you would like to label it with.
  • I seem to be trying to make sense to a donkey, which is you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prince Cadmus II (talk • contribs)
I did not call him an Assyrian Christian rather than a Maronite, as you can see here: [3] Stop making up lies about my edits. Just because there may be some Assyrian heritage in Lebanon, it is not the only one. If the Phoenicians disappeared, then where did they disappear to? — No idea, you're the "Phoenician expert" here. You're the one who claims descent from this people. The burden is on you Phoenician revisionists to prove it. Go ahead and prove it. Why are modern Lebanese (Muslim and Christian alike) related GENETICALLY to the ancient Phoenicians? — Proof please. Most Muslims in Lebanon, are Arabs, with some Maronite ancestry. You know, that we Middle Eastern Christians rarely marry Muslims. Ever heard of the Millet legacy of the Ottoman Empire? You're still not backing up your assertions with any source. And for the last time, Richard N. Frye, is an academic scholar. The source is not YouTube. Look, the Assyrians conquered Lebanon.[4] The Assyrians settled colonies in ancient Phoenicia. How much 'pure Phoenician' do you think you are, anyway? — EliasAlucard|Talk 20:04 01 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
You want genetic proof? Link 1, Link 2. I don't see anything else similar linking them to Assyrians. Your idea of the Phoenicians being wiped out is refuted, because the genetic marker still exists in the local population. What you also see is your assumption of Muslims in Lebanon being Arabs is also an assumption that you have magically just turned into a fact. Sure there may not be so much intermarriage, but no one is to say that when the Arabs arrived, they didn't convert the local population to Islam. They did. Once again it has been proven here that Muslims and Christians of Lebanon alike contain the genetic marker that links them back to the Phoenicians. If you want to spin rubbish as really facts, then go and do some genetic testing first and show us your results. I respect the fact that you are zealously interested in your race and species, but your logic and reasoning and labelling of other people as really yours is completely arrogant, in denial, expansionist, extremist and lacks any grounding whatsoever because I can say as well that you are really a Phoenician and not actually an Assyrian. Prince Cadmus II 13:00, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
That's an interesting link. The Maltese people, are indeed of Semitic origins. But this study, didn't reveal much. It just said "Lebanese", not Maronite, Lebanese Muslims, or anything specific. Pierre Zalloua is a Lebanese who very well might be into Phoenicianism. I would like more independent tests, confirming his point, before Lebanese people can be called "Phoenicians". He's not even sure himself on his theories, all he's doing is speculating, guessing, making up theories, and then all of a sudden, he magically reaches the conclusion, that Lebanese people are the same as Phoenicians. Right. It sounds more like wishful thinking than exact science. And this, he's basing on a 4000 years old skull... Oh well, nice talking to you. End of discussion. — EliasAlucard|Talk 12:04 03 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
Speculating? What on earth do you think you have been doing this whole time? You are assuming everyone is Assyrian just because you think so! Maltese people have the same descendency from Phoenicians as Lebanese people do. You are really paranoid and think that Maronites claim to be the only Phoenicians in the world. Maronites do not claim this anywhere. This is only what you are so insecure about. Maronites began from St Maroun. St Maroun came from Antioch which is now in Turkey. When he travelled south to the mouth of the Orontes river in present day Lebanon, he converted the "LOCAL" population there. The local population of PHOENICIANS! Whether you have this Phoenician complex of people making up stuff about Phoenicia, this has nothing to do with reality itself! A number of historians (and people like you) ignorantly claim that Phoenicia ceased to exist in 64 BC, when it became part of the Roman world. However, official records indicate that in 425 AD Phoenicia Prima was subdivided into two provinces, Phoenicia Maritima and Phoenicia Libanensis by the Romans. Further, excavations at Tel Kadesh (158 BC) in Israel as well as the witness of Saint Augustine (400 AD), Church Councils of Tyre (449 & 515 AD), the Fall of Phoenicia to the Arabs (640 AD) and the honorary living title "Metropolitan Archbishop of Phoenicia Maritima" which Lebanese bishops continue to carry today.
Further: The Ecumenical Council of Sardica, 343 to 344 A.D.
34. "We, the holy synod met in Sardica from different provinces of the East, namely, Thebais, Egypt, Palestine, Arabia, Phoenicia, Coele Syria, Mesopotamia etc...
This says "PHOENICIA" clearly, and is in official Church documents.

Phoenicia, after becoming a Roman province in 64AD continued to be called that for 700 years until falling to the Arabs in the 7th century and put under greater Syria as part of the Bilad al-Sham, at which point the Maronite Church had already had its foot in that territory for 300 years! And who made up the body of people behind St Maroun? The Local PHOENICIANS!

This bears all proof that the Assyrians did not wipe out the Phoenicians. Religiously, the Maronite Church is Antiochene Syriac rite from Antioch.
But this is not what we are talking about here as this has nothing to do with the people who were converted to the Church. The body of people who were originally converted to the Maronite Church were the Phoenicians off the coast of modern day Lebanon and surrounds because the physical population of Maronites are NOT the OFFSPRING of St Maron and the monks that came with him from Antioch!!!!! Lebanese people (Muslim and Christian) are descendants of the Phoenicians. Phoenicia is not used as a myth to separate Lebanon. Phoenicia is used to prove to the Arab expansionists and in your case Assyrian expansionists who go around denying the actual heritage and legacy of people who you refuse to believe continued to exist. Arabs use this to expand the idea of the united Arab kingdom or empire stretching from the Atlantic to the Indian Ocean. This is no different to your method of thinking, by reducing the meaning of the course of history with fallacies just to suit your political/dominative aspirations and dreams.Prince Cadmus II 03:28, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I am not involved in this discussion, and I don't want to be. But please PLEASE stop with the personal attacks on both sides! It's not productive, and what's more, it's an embarrassment and a disgrace to what Wikipedia is all about. Thank you, DLandTALK 18:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Finally, Carlos Slim Helu is NOT ASSYRIAN! Give a real source to prove otherwise. It's really pathetic and arrogant to keep changing him to Assyrian because he does not even identify with any Assyrian cause or even church or political grouping. There is nothing Assyrian about him at all. He is a Lebanese Maronite Catholic and this has nothing to do with the land, the hearts and the aspirations of any Assyrian grouping. The only Assyrian you can try prove in him in a genetic link, and I haven't seen any proof of that yet.Prince Cadmus II 03:52, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The article seems to be a little....light

There are many more things that should be included here. Religion, personal life, family, other works, etc.

If I'm missing something (like the information is somewhere else but I just can't find it), then sorry for butting in.

7FlushSetzer 22:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Criticism

It is unbelievable that a man this rich has not attracted any criticism. Are his business practices this clean? No one becomes a multi-billionary by being "nice". This article looks like it was written by Carlos Helú himself or a friend. Thank you for any help there. Marco Alfarrobinha {chat}contributions 13:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Done. Feel free to add more from other sources.--DLandTALK 13:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
If it was written by Carlos Helu himself, then you wouldnt have all these pathetic weirdos coming in and changing his profile all the time. One minute he is a Maronite Catholic, then next thing some weirdo comes out of nowhere claiming he's really Assyrian.. then a Jew, then a Jordanian... Get the facts right everyone, He is a Maronite Catholic and his father came from Jezzine, a Maronite village in Lebanon. It's trivial. I'd like to see more written on the article instead of tit-for-tat changes with sources coming from extremely unreliable websites. I'd also like to see more on that criticism page, because of course alot of Mexicans live relatively poor lives while he is right up there...Prince Cadmus II 03:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I can't help but wonder if his wealth isn't 7% of the GDP because he's evil or anything, but because Mexico lacks a free-market economy, and most people are unable to work their way up to wealth. Perhaps he's just very lucky, as well as a very intelligent businessman. - MSTCrow 17:18, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Has anyone found a resume?

Such a famous man might have created a website where he posted his personal history. Has anyone come across one? I could not find any personal details on the Telmex web site. EdJohnston 20:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

There is a book: José Martínez: Carlos Slim: Relato inédito, Oceáno de México, Mexico City, 2002 (3rd ed.), ISBN 9789706515711 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chigliak (talk • contribs) 1 August, 2007

Aglamaz

Is there any reliable source for that name being his or his father's? In German wikipedia we constantly revert it, because it gets changes are made without comment or source. In some other versions it survived, but maybe due to lack of control. Any sources? Apart from anonymous people stating things at article discussion pages? Thank you. Chigliak 21:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Hi, I also dispute the name of Aglamaz. I believe it is a name his father adopted upon arriving in Mexico. There is no other source proving it. His original Lebanese name was Youssef Salim. He dropped the Youssef and used Julian. Haddad could have been his father's name or profession or something, and then added Aglamaz. It is just confusing because Carlos's sons are called Carlos Slim Domit, Marco Antonio Slim Domit, and Patrick Slim Domit.. Is it Mexican naming format? Maybe the name on the end is like a middle name. Julian Slim Haddad Aglamaz -> Carlos Slim Helu -> Carlos,Marco Antonio,Patrick Slim Domit.

The only thing consistent with all those names is Slim. I think from this that the family surname is Slim (Selim). We do need more sources though on Mexican naming format. Prince Cadmus II 04:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I was aware of the Spanish-speaking world's surname system, and most surely Slim and Helú are his only surnames (from father and mother), but nevertheless would like to know where this Aglamaz comes from, and why it is constantly re-"vandalized" into wikipedias in all languages. I just reverted it again in the German version. Chigliak 08:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Might there by some Turkish nationalist background behind this? Chigliak 09:03, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, interesting point Chigliak. Aglamaz was a second name that he took up and is probably what people called him. Something like Richard "the Lionheart" for example. Turkish nationalist background? I sincerely doubt it. Julian Slim Haddad hailed from the Christian Autonomous Governorate (Mutasarrifiyya) of Mount Lebanon which was part of the Turkish Vilayet of Beirut under the Ottoman Empire. Although the everyday language was Arabic at that time, since the Middle East was under Ottoman Turkish administration, these people were all subjects of the Sultanate of Constantinople for over 450 years officially. So it would be no surprise that he may have a second Christian name or have at least a word or two in Turkish. He originally fled Lebanon to escape Turkish military conscription, so I doubt by all means it had anything to do with Turkish nationalism, in fact quite the opposite.Prince Cadmus II 04:53, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Are there then any sources (books, reliable newspapers, etc.) for the Agglamaz name being used either by his father or himself? If not, it surely shouldn't be in the article. Chigliak 09:16, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
just citing: "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable." Chigliak 09:18, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Mexican Surname System

Here in México a child is typically given one or two first names. These names function very much like the first and middle names used in the naming system that is typically used in the U.S. For example, in the above kinship chart there is Ivan Miguel Rosado Rivas, who has two first names, and his son Ivan Rosado Mendez, who only has one first name. Those individuals who have two first names sometimes use one or the other, or sometimes both, as the name that they go by. For instance, Ivan Miguel Rosado Rivas may be called Ivan, Miguel, or Ivan Miguel, by his family and friends.

In addition to the first name(s), a person is given two apellidos (last names). In the cases above the apellidos are Rosado Rivas and Rosdao Mendez, respectively. The first of the two apellidos is the father´s first apellido, and the second of the two apellidos is the mother´s first apellido. Therefore, Ivan Rosado Mendez inherited the apellido Rosado from his father, Ivan Miguel Rosado Rivas, and the apellido Mendez from his mother Rosa Eugenia Mendez Vales.

This naming system allows the father´s apellido to exist for at lest two generations, if it is passed through a daughter, or indefinitely if passed through successive sons.

One other important aspect of the Mexican naming system is the way in which apellidos are exchanged through marriage. Usually the wife will drop her second apellido and replace it with her husband´s first apellido. Also, sometimes they will insert a “de” in front of the husband´s first apellido before it replaces the wife´s second apellido. Let´s consider the ego of our kinship chart, Hilda Rivas Aguilar. After marriage to her husband Ivan Rosado Nuñez, she can be known as Hilda Rivas Rosado or Hilda Rivas de Rosado.

Taken from Mexican naming system

Julian Slim Haddad would be thus the son of a man with the surname of Slim, and a mother with surname of Haddad.

  • Carlos Slim Helu--> takes his father's paternal surname SLIM, dropping Haddad, and adding instead his own mother's paternal surname HELU. Therefore he is Carlos Slim Helu.
  • Soumaya Domit Gemayel--> late wife of Carlos Slim Helu: Domit is her father's surname, and Gemayel is her mother's surname.

Therefore their (Carlos Slim Helu + Soumaya Domit Gemayel) offspring would have surnames of Slim and Domit. Ie. Carlos Slim Domit, Patrick Slim Domit and Marco Antonio Slim Domit. (By always taking the first "appellido" of the father and the first "appellido" of the mother).

Therefore, Carlos Slim Helu, would really be just Carlos Slim, or Carlos Salim in non-Mexican format. So instead of "Helu", the paternal family surname is just Slim (Salim) from the village of Jezzine in Lebanon. Prince Cadmus II 05:29, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Propose move to Carlos Slim

Disregarding all discussions regarding the use of the Mexican naming system vs. whatever other naming system, I want to propose that the article be moved to Carlos Slim on the grounds that The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and Reuters all refer to him this way. The only major source that I have seen so far that calls him Helu is Forbes. Please discuss/vote here: --DLandTALK 03:42, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Forbes is NOT the official judge

Just because Forbes releases an annual list of the world's richest billionaires does not mean that it is somehow the "official" judge on the matter. Anyone can come out with a list. It's a gimmick Forbes uses to sell magazines. Both the Wall Street Journal and Fortune magazine—two very highly-respected business publications—are reporting that Carlos Slim has topped Bill Gates as the world's richest man. (WSJ actually has the highest reputation of all three publications.)

Carlos Slim's status as the world's richest man is backed up in this article with two references, one from the WSJ and one from Fortune. This article's claim that Carlos Slim is the world's richest man is fully compliant with WP:V and WP:RS. In addition, the WSJ and Fortune articles are newer than any Forbes article on the issue.

The fact that WSJ and Fortune are every bit as highly-regarded as Forbes, the fact that they outnumber Forbes, and the fact that the WSJ and Fortune articles are newer than any Forbes article on the issue, makes them more reliable than Forbes on the issue. --JHP 09:51, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

You can avoid making anything sound "official" by adding "according to [Forbes/WSJ/Fortune/"various publications"]", which would be a fact. For example Bill Gates' article says "Forbes ranked Gates as the richest since 1995", not "Gates is the richest since 1995". Shawnc 11:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Good point --JHP 19:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Forbes may not be the judge, but it is THE most reliable source in the world, and although it is not updated daily, if it were we would have to change the articles constantly as Gates, Helu, and Buffet are all extremely close. I think the best decision is to leave it the way it is; ie, According to Forbes hes the second richest, however it only updates annually. --User:Leethal 23 August 2007 —The preceding signed but undated comment was added at 15:01, August 23, 2007 (UTC).

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