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Possible NPOV

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I am puzzled about the line with the referee smiling at the Swedish player as he was sending him off. I was wondering what is the point of having this line and photograph there? What is this statement trying to say? A smile from a referee could almost mean anything, if this statement is in support of some fact then keep it, otherwise innuendo in an encyclopaedic article should be deleted.

Please note, I do agree, in my opinion, that the sending off of Lucic was debatable. We really want the reader of any article to form an opinion of Mr. Simon based on all possible facts presented. I am placing an NPOV dispute to warn readers until some of the concerns are addressed.

smr 08:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)smrgeog

In Sweden, that red card (which everyone think was totaly unfair) together with mr Simon's super sarcastic grin, has been a huge thing, and, apperantly, also the BBC noted it... (i.e. a lot of people say Simon was pro germany and enjoyed Sweden lossing the game, as he smiles and laughs). Bronks 20:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I had no idea that that situation had received this much attention in Sweden (or anywhere else). I just spent some time in google.br trying to locate some kind of statement from Simon, but I couldn't find any — it figures, since FIFA really doesn't likes its referees giving wind to polemics from past games. But I can offer what the commentators for the Brazilian tv said when it happened, as I was watching that match. Those commentators are very familiar with Simon, from covering his matches in the Brazilian national league for years and years, so I gather their opinions could mean something in terms of accuracy. They were unanimous in saying that Simon's face expression was to express something like: "I really didn't want to send you off, but you've forced me to give you two yellow cards already, and the rules say that two yellow cards equal one red card". In essence, they meant to say that Simon appeared to them as being somewhat uncomfortable with sending Lucic off, but he had already given him a yellow card for a previous foul, and when he gave him another one, he was forced to show Lucic a red card — noticing that it all happened somewhat early in the match, and Simon, when giving Lucic the second yellow card, probably only noticed that he would have to send the player off when he checked his notes and saw that there was already a previous yellow card. Sometimes, when it's later into the match, referees are more conservative in giving out yellow cards, and they usually use the halftime break to memorize the numbers of the players who already have one yellow card, so that they can try to avoid sending off players without a more serious offense (and this is not my guess, Brazilian former FIFA referee Arnaldo Cezar Coelho, who refereed the 1982 Final, said that referees do that). Redux 22:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The previous point appears to be a fair assessment of what was going on during the Germany match; I disagree with any notion or suggestion that the referee was pro-Germany or that he willfully favoured Germany during the match. Some errors that referees make are so crass that an observer watching the match might think that there is an element of referee bias during the match. If one is to be objective, in every World Cup there has always been controversy involving referees and every four years we are going to come back to same old discussion. In the context of Carlos Simon being in a Wikipedia article, the smile reference should be removed as it is a matter of interpretation in terms of its meaning. We can still say in the article in Carlos Simon attracted controversy with his actions during the Germany/Sweden match without compromising NPOV.

smr 02:04, 28 June 2006 (UTC)smrgeog

Yeah, I’m not saying that it is a true fact that Simon was pro-germany, I’m just saying that the swedish TV-commentators, and the newspapers the day after, claimed that the red card for Lucic was totally unfair and that it was a scandal that Simon “laughed” while giving the red card, and made coments like, "the referee wants germany to win because it is the host nation”, etc. Of course, it is a very sensitive issue, and the whole thing is interpreted differently depending on what country you’re from.
Also, Lucic has played in the national team for 12 years and he had never gotten a yellow card before, so that was why many thought is was so bizarre that he now suddanly was given a red card. Bronks 17:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose an accusation such as this, and in a World Cup no less, would merit inclusion in the article. We just need to be careful about wording it, so as to retain NPOV. Bronks has given us the reaction from the Swedish media, which seems to have been the only one to express this point of view. In Brazil, as I remember, all agreed that the Swedish player did not need to be sent off in that match, or at least not in those circumstances, but there was never any kind of suspicion of bias from Simon. And I can say, I've "known" this referee for over 10 years, and I'd say there's about zero chance that he "wanted Germany to win", and even if he somehow liked the Germans, the possibility of him bending the rules in order to undermine the Swedish is nonexistent.
So we should have the article read that this situation took place in the 2006 World Cup, and it caused vehement negative reactions from the Swedish press, as well as the player himself later on. But it needs to be crystal clear that it was speculation from the press, and nothing more. Although I have defended Simon here, it would not be the article's place to do something similar, although the interpretation from the Brazilian press, who is the only one to be familiar with Simon, might be taken as "the other side of the story".
It would also be important that reporting this incident doesn't become the larger part of this article, since it is supposed to be a biographical article about a person, not a news piece about a World Cup match incident. Redux 18:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • I just want to make clear that there are no real, “official” accusations from Sweden or Swedes, saying that Mr Simon was bias. It was only some comments, from some, maybe in the heat of the moment. (I remember during the game that the TV commentators said things like “this referee is know to judge in favour the host nations” etc) ...but it is true to say that everyone in sweden, including the media and the coach of the swedish football team, expressed their opinion that the red card was totally unfair, and that Simon’s smile was seen by everyone as an “evil grin”, and that this picture (as linked to) was on the front page of many newspapers the day after, with coments about how he laughts etc. Bronks 16:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Today, now I just read about it again in a swedish newspaper (Aftonbladet), so I included it in the article.

Edits

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Added a little more information and also removed entirely the part about his "smiling". You must agree with me that it was totally irrelevant. However, I think we should maintain that his performance was controversial, and I agree that FIFA took it into account not to appoint him to work in the final matches, even though FIFA would never admit to it.

  • That grin was on the front page on every newspaper in Sweden the day after. It was seen here as VERY controversial and provoking, and definitely added to the whole idea that the red card was "unfair" and a "scandal". Bronks 17:08, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The World Cup is over

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Guys, the World Cup is over, and now it´s time to stop whining or complaining. As an encyclopaedia, Wikipedia should have personal articles that present a balanced biography of individuals. It is not reasonable to devote several lines to one match officiated by this referee. Also, only his alleged mistake or controversial decisions are mentioned - never his correct decisions.

Referees are no different from other people, so they should receive the same treatment. If a referee is selected to officiate in a World Cup, it means he is one of the best among dozens of thousands worldwide. Thus, his article should reflect such status, and "controversial" decisions should not be emphasised. However, infamous errors (such as those accepted by the referee later - eg Graham Poll's three yellow cards to the same player), ought to be included.

To make an analogy, for instance, I don´t think the article on players such as Miroslav Klose should mention how many of his shots missed the target in each match, or how many passes were not completed. Nevertheless, Zidane's headbutting is worth mentioning.

It is just a matter of balance. I hope an editor apply such standards to this article.

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