Talk:Carl Michael Bellman/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Iselilja (talk · contribs) 23:22, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I would like to try and review this article, starting this week (tuesday). It will be my first review, so there is that; but some article needs to be the first. I have this article from SNL as a kind of comparison. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 23:22, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for taking this on. I'll have a go at the Norwegian ... I find that Swedish enables me to decipher Norwegian and Danish in writing, if not in speech! Tak så mycket. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:38, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tjänare! Overall I think it is a fine, well-written, nicely illustrated article, so I expect to pass it in more or less its current form; just address some minor things first.

Note 29 January. I am sorry Chiswick Chap. I got less time for Wikipedia than I though I would have, so I haven't been able to focus so much on this review (but I have looked into it). I have something else I need to wrap up first, but I will try to add some more later this evening; or some of the coming days. Hopefully I will have gone through it till Sunday. Iselilja (talk) 16:40, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, glad you have a 'real life'! I'm happy to be warm and dry after a busy day volunteering at my local nature reserve. I've done what you asked on the article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:47, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Italics/square quotes for songs/epistles: Could you tell what principle you have applied for the use of italics/quotation marks for the epistles/songs. Is there a difference between the two? And does language/translation play a role? It appears to me that there is some inconsistency. I have to admit I am somewhat uncertain here myself, looking at the MOS I get the impression that songs should simply be in double quotation marks.

Done, I hope. There is no difference. Have attempted to use double quotes for the names of all songs/epistles, and italics for the names of books. Please feel free to fix any that I've missed.

Photo captions

'Alas, thou my mother' has single, not double quotation marks. The same title is italized in text.

Done. Song/epistle titles should be in double quotes; book titles in italics.

In one caption you refer to the "Swedish dress". Do you refer to the "Nationella dräkten"?, because then it might be hyperlinked.

Surprise! Yes I did. Linked as requested.

Krogen Kryp-In is in one caption written Crawl-in Tavern and in another Creep-in tavern, maybe we could have consistency here

Done. I changed the translation of the tavern name (don't blame the nominator ^^), and I missed one place. My bad. I think this is a better translation, cf. crawl-space in a house. A krypin in one word is really a snug, but the tavern's name is written in two words alluding to the fact that drunks crawl (spiders creep, I think...). I'm Swedish btw. w.carter-Talk 21:37, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sources section

English: Van Loom should have a capital V, I believe. Like you have it in the text.

Done.

Early life

The first sentence is a bit heavy imo, and not totally grammatically well formed. Maybe breaking it up a bit. You have one long dash; but that sentence ends with a comma, which doesn't seem quite harmonic to me.

Done.

Maybe hyperlink Maria parish to Maria Magdalena Church in lieu of an article for the parish

Done.

"eldest of 15 (surviving) children" I am not so happy by parentheses in sentences unless it is obviously natural. In this case it is a bit unclear what "surviving" means. From what I can see from of the online sources; the family had 15 children that was registered in the church books (while Bellmann says there was 21 children). So maybe, a bit more precise language here.

Done.

Do you have a source for the six extra children, because the Bellman society says " In his short autobiography, Carl Michael remembered 21 childbirths, which is probably an exaggeration; but fifteen are registered" so they seem to not fully trust Bellman's own account.

Hidden them, if we can't rely on CMB himself.

"the Swedish tradition of hospitality left the family with no money to start him off" I think this may be a bit simplistic to lay all blame on Swedish tradition of hospitality; because if other families used to send their youth abroad, but this family couldn't, then there was probably more reasons than Swedish traditions (which would affect most families)?

OK, added "expenses including..." which gives some 'wiggle room'.

The banking career: The last paragraph was a bit confusing to me, because I don't think you make it clear enough that after a short stay at Uppsala, he returns to the bank job (the job is probably why he was able to get loans in the first place). The "failed hopelessly" comment in the first sentence made me think that his bank career had ended once and for all.

Removed the 'failed hopelessly; added that he returned to the bank job.

he met the sons (such as Carl Bonde) of wealthy and noble families I am not totally happy about the composition of this sentence, but open to arguments

Reworded, hope that's better.

Poetry and song

General. Based on the importance of Bellman this is one section that I actually would have liked to see fleshed out somewhat more. However, the GA standard doesn't require the same kind of comprehensiveness as a FA, and I don't think there is any major omissions. And for the average English-speaking reader the paragraph may be quite enough.

Agree, we have enough here for most readers.

On my PC, the citation feature doesn't show very clearly that there is a citation coming, it more looks like there is a white space that shouldn't be there. This is not your fault and maybe it looks otherwise at other PCs/platforms. However, it makes me inclined to want an attribution before the citation, like you do one place. I can understand why you don't want to say "according to" three places, but just want to mention my impression of this.

Noted.

powerful religious poem. I think adjectives/evaluations should have inline citation straight after the sentence

Removed the 'powerful'.

'had no model and can have no successors' (Kellgren). Is this the same Kellgren as is hyperlinked further down?

Yes. We try not to modify quotations but I think it's sensible to overlink this instance, we are allowed to do that when there's good reason.

the king's permission I think the king's name should be mentioned.

Named and linked.

he married the 22-year-old Lovisa Grönlund in Clara church I think this is Klara Church (Bellman being buried at the churchyard there), thus could be hyperlinked.

Done.

Bellman also wrote religious poetry. Is this part of the songs/epistles or are they unpublished?

Religious poems published in 1781, 1787, nothing to do with Fredman; text and ref added.

Were any of the plays published? Maybe indicate something about this in the text.

They are Vol 6 of his collected works, ref.

each including some 70 songs I think the numbers could be specified.

Done.

rococo elegance and humour' I was thinking here that rococo probably should be hyperlinked; either to the general rococo or a more specific link. I notice that in the lead, his style is described as baroque; so I believe there should be consistency here. If his work is also called baroque, this should also be reflected in the body.

Changed lead to rococo, and wikilinked.

Reception

Kleveland Maybe include first name Åse and hyperlink it

Done.

Later life

As if sickness were not enough I am a bit weary of such story-telling language in an encyclopedia. But I understand this kind of editorializing also can be used to make the language more lively. So, I just wonder about your thoughts about his; how deliberately you use it.

Changed to 'As well as being ill'.

buried in the churchyard of the local parish church of Sankta Clara. Should be harmonized with what is said about Clara church above. Maybe just write Klara church?

Done

Legacy

modern Swedish artists Maybe you should put modern a bit earlier in the paragraph since the two you first mentions are also modern

Done.

Is there anything to say about how the songs survived in the period before modern recordings? Did people sing and play them often or did they get a kind of Renaissance with the recordings?

This combined with this may help. If you need any assistance with the translation, please let me know. w.carter-Talk 13:15, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Added a paragraph on C19th appreciation.

Hendrik van Loon's style The table in this section seemed to me to put a bit too much emphasis on this one bad translation. Maybe you can just tell me your thoughts behind including it.

Cut the table.

Lead

the songs wonderfully combine words and music Should wonderfully be there?

Used Britten Austin's "most ingeniously", ref.

using elegantly baroque classical references I can't see baroque in the body, but rather rococo.

Same difference, but changed to rococo. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:18, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have a source for the last part of the third paragraph (uniqueness)?

The mention and ref are already in the article, which is normally considered sufficient. I've repeated the ref here for you.

Conclusion

Thank you for following up so quickly. I hope I am now mostly finished with making change suggestions, but I will need to look into the online sources a bit more to check for close paraphrasing; and also make a last, final check of the article to see if there is something I have missed. The grammar and spelling check is a bit tricky since I am not proficient in the English language, so there my review may not be a thorough as it ideally should be. Hopefully I can wrap this up on Tuesday. Thanks for your patience. Iselilja (talk) 13:03, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry too much; I got an A in my Use of English (quite a long time ago), and there are plenty of editors who travel about fixing minor points! An American spellchecker will give the right answer but for a few British endings (-our not -or) and one or two other minor differences. I'll respond to your other comments now.

Yes, spot checks didn't reveal any spelling erros; I cannot evaluate the finer points of grammar; but my general impression is that the language flows fine. I have now read through the Taube Society page and there wasn't any close paraphrase problems. I notice that the site questions (a bit) whether Bellman really was in Norway and also they mention that he has been featured in several literary works (novels, plays, TV-productions). Is there anything notable there?

I found a TV series and some postage stamps, which I've added to the Legacy section. I'm not sure it's terribly exciting but it's probably worth mentioning. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:23, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Birthday

Today (4 February) would be a very good day to pass this GAN since it is his 275:th birthday. (humorous)

Indeed! A fine article to celebrate Bellman with! Maybe you want to nominate it for DYK on his death date, 11 February, if he hasn't been featured on the front page previously. Thank you both for being so helpful through this review process. I'll now check the formalities of closing a review. Iselilja (talk) 14:35, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To celebrate this the entire collection of his works is released online today. See this. Maybe that could have a place in the article. Legacy? Link to works w.carter-Talk 14:12, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wow. May well be relevant, to include it. Iselilja (talk) 14:35, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it's already in the article! Many thanks for the review and the valuable suggestions, Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:38, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	(Will note that I, the reviewer, is an ESL)
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
	2c. it contains no original research.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	Yes
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	No issues
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	No issues
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	Tagged with copyright status
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	Many fine and relevant illustrations with interesting captions
	7. Overall assessment.	Very nice article