Talk:Carimba

Assessment, stub class for now

I assessed this as a low-importance article for the Wikiproject Musical Instruments, low being where I put instruments that are not widely known or are somewhat obscure. I rated it a stub because it is the bare-beginning of an article. The reference is good, has all that is needed to make inline citations and even expand the text with quotes. If you improve it and want reassessment or need help or have questions, please drop me a line.Jacqke (talk) 01:40, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Nahua national instrument?

Have a couple of questions/comments re the statement made here, designating this as the 'Nahua national instrument'.

The works I have seen that discuss Nahua music (both pre- and post-conquest) all highlight that Nahuan musical tradition is based on wind instruments (eg tlapitzalli), and drums; string instruments (such as this musical bow) were notably absent. In fact, to the best of my knowledge the modern consensus view holds that string instruments were virtually unknown throughout pre-Columbian Americas, although there has been some ongoing dispute as to whether musical bows have a pre-Columbian origin, or are a later import (cf. the likely African origins of the berimbau). While this is still possibly unresolved (for the Americas as a whole), a few modern sources I consulted seemed to be content to say or infer that string instruments were not part of the pre-Conquest Nahua traditional repertoire. One such source is James Lockhart, noted Nahua historian who in his book The Nahuas After the Conquest (1992) notes (p.281) "...the Nahuas, having no strings, originally [linguistically] classified nearly all the new instruments [ie introduced post-conquest] under their two principal categories, drums and winds."

Still, I suppose it's possible the instrument became incorporated into Nahua traditions in the post-Conquest era; and from the description ("brass wire connected both ends", etc) clearly a modern instrument is being referred to. However, I have been unable to locate any other source that pointedly associates this instrument with Nahua culture, either in general terms or in terms that give it a cultural significance that merits its description as a 'national instrument'. I also can't at the moment where in the citation provided it substantiates this identification. That (century-old) Marshall Saville article is mainly concerned with debating the indigenous-origins question of such instruments, and seems to only note the use of such an instrument in several Mesomerican cultures, not Nahua specifically.

I'm no ethnomusicologist and could be mistaken, but at the moment I'm not sure about the accuracy of this present entry. Would be glad to hear of any further clarification if anyone has more info. --cjllw ʘ TALK 00:18, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I made this stub after creating list of national instruments, for which I just searched for usages of that term. Saville doesn't say what made him think it was the national instrument, but he claims to have observed it in a village called Whuisnagua. I suppose he could have been referring to that specific village, but it appears to be referring to the "Nahuatl-speaking Indians of the Balsam coast, San Salvador". Perhaps I should have been more specific, but when I think of "national instrument" I kind of assume it's not just a regional thing, especially since I'm not aware that the Balsam coast-Nahuatl are a particularly distinct group. He connects it to similar instruments among the Guatemalan Kekchi and the Honduran Xicaques. It is speculated (in that article) that it is of African origin, so it probably is post-Conquest.

Anyway, I think you're more of an expert than me, perhaps this source is too archaic to consider reliable. Perhaps the one scholar's description of it as a "national instrument" was based on a brief period of popularity - he observed it before 1878. The referenced article refers also to a different article called "Geographic Distribution of the Musical Bow" which describes a bow given to him (Professor Mason) by a "native Zulu negro". Anyway, I don't see any more modern references, and you obviously know more about this than me - as I said, I was just searching for uses of the term "national instrument". If you think that claim should be removed, and/or this article deleted, go ahead. Tuf-Kat (talk) 05:10, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Appreciate your responses, Tuf-Kat, thanks. I guess Saville's nahuatl-speakers along San (El) Salvador's Balsam coast would be today referred to as the Pipil, culturally and linguistically related to Nahuas further north in central Mexico but also a little geographically and historically removed. It may be possible that adoption of this instrument (whatever its origins) might permeate through the broad spread of Nahua peoples, but at this stage can't assess whether this is the case. Also would be useful to know whether the carimba continues in surviving Pipil tradition. A fellow wikipedian here, A R King, has spent time in El Salvador and knows Pipil-Nawat culture well, so I'll drop him a line and see if he's able to offer any insight.

The article certainly doesn't need deleting, only a possible recasting of emphasis, since it seems the instrument is known to a few more central american indigenous cultures as well. Maybe it's central to the musical tradition of one or more of those, if not the pipil. Regards, --cjllw ʘ TALK 03:36, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I think - unless someone comes up with other info on the subject - I'll redirect this to something like musical bows in Central America and cover whatever I can find on that topic. (note also this, which talks about a Honduran musical bow called the "caramba"). If someone more knowledgeable comes along, they can rearrange things. Tuf-Kat (talk) 18:26, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

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I asked a wikipedian colleague who has spent some time among and studying the Pipils of El Salvador (ie, the Nahuatl-speakers on the Balsam coast Saville alludes to). Here for reference is his reply, copied from his usertalk page:

"Hello, nice to hear from you! Unfortunately that isn't my field at all and I can't help much (even bibliographically). All I can think of saying is what is obvious: that 'the "nahuatl-speaking peoples" of the Salvadoran Pacific coast in particular' certainly has to be pointing towards the pipiles. My impression is that musical culture has not been preserved very well in this area in general, except perhaps for the traditions of playing pipes and drums in local "fiestas" (mostly post-European in form and content, I would guess). We have a recent recording and transcription of an interview of an old man who makes the latter instruments, talking about their construction, how he learnt to make them and so on. No mention of anything like what you mention, as far as I can remember. I also met a marimba-maker in the Pipil area, but my guess is that is a more recent importation from Guatemala, where I understand marimbas are more common. But I insist that I'm not into that field so don't take my word for any of this. Cheers, Alan. PS Sorry to be slow answering, I'm under an avalanche of work at the moment. --User:A R King (talk) 11:22, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

When/if I organise some time, will look to rewriting. It's a bona fide article sure enough, maybe just need to recast the 'national instrument' bit in the specific context of the report mentioned by Saville, and have the article more generically as an instrument used/adopted by several central american cultures. --cjllw ʘ TALK 07:28, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

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Google 'Carimba' and look at the images that come up. I purchased a souvenir Carimba while visiting Puerto Rico, and it looks exactly like the images supplied by a google search. Additionally, I was able to loosely read a couple of pages using a browser translator (as I do not know Spanish), and was able to verify mentions of the instrument being built from a coconut. Whatever instrument Saville is alluding to, if indeed is correctly named a Carimba, then at the very least there are two different instruments by that name, and the instrument described by this article is arguably less prominent in the world. Jtpoland (talk) 21:44, 11 March 2013 (UTC)