Talk:Capoeira/Definitions

Breakdancing

I think that it is pertinent to talk about the evolution of breakdancing, before one says that capeora was influenced by breakdancing. Breakdancing evoved out of New York in the late 70's early 80's. Not much debate have I heard on that point. But were did breakdancing come from? Was it spontaneous combustion? New York is a culturally diverse city, with strong emphasis on the arts, especially theater and dance. I think it is obvious that breakdancers were influeced by gymnastics. Capoeira too was obviuosly a major influence. The "up-rock" that breakdancers do is a very similar pattern to the ginga, (capoeira footwork). Moreover, many of tyhe moves from a head spin to a hand spin to doing a "baby", all have been done incapoeira for quite sometime. Another lesser known influence on breaking is the mimes that frequent Central Park. When you see breakdancers act like they are a robot, or are being electrocuted, or doing a wave or something, these are techniques adapted from mimes. Mimes frequently do such antics, including being traped in a box, mimicking people, etc. The point is body control and coordiation. I'm not saying breakers took classes on how to be a mime, but I am saying that they were heavily influenced by mimes, and capoeiristas and gymnasts. Finally, on a personal note, I have been training capoeira for eight years, and my closest friends have been doing it for ten+ years. None of us have even half considered copying breakers' moves. they simply don't think about application, how to use it in conjuction with another person. I have however, witnessed breakers AND other martal artists blatantly copy capoeira techniques.

Boa Gente

Breakdancing - Removed the part about Capoeira being influenced by breakdancing because Capoeira is a self-sustaining entity that is based in tradition and culture. As it has gone to other countries each group maintains the cultural brazilian influence and is constantly interacting with other Capoeira groups when there are roda's, batizado's and other miscellaneous events. If Capoeira were to be influenced by breakdancing the entire movement from Brazil to the U.S. would have to completely embrace the concept and that is not happening. -Grundle

Clearly capoeira is self sustaining, but one can't deny that it has evolved in the last forty or fifty years. If you watch old videos of capoeira, you see very little of the flashy moves and tricks of today, especially moves such as corta capim (spinning one leg underneath you while crouching). Many of the older mestres also disapprove of the stunts that have emerged. Capoeira is very adaptable to change — note how Bimba changed the traditional form of capoeira into Capoeira Regional. Clearly modern capoeira, especially Regional, has the potential to be influenced both by Asian martial arts and by breakdancing. — Asbestos | Talk 13:48, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Specifically referencing your example of corta capim, even though it's know as a breakdancing movement in the US, it's actually an old capoeira movement, practiced by old mestres in Bahia. I think this shows the problem with assuming the origins of movements. — spyrral | Talk 13:48, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I won't dispute the fact that capoeira is constantly evolving. I think that it is very possible that many movements have been taken from Asian martial arts, but I would be hesitant to say that Capoeira has been significantly influenced by breakdance. I also agree with you that the game is not the same today as it was 50 years ago. I think we need to take a look at where these changes are coming from. The large majority come from Mestres who have started their own groups and have infused their own philosophy and outlook on Capoeira into their own group. The most signifcant example I can give you is Mestre Suassuna's group Cordao de Ouro. In this group Suassuna introduced a new "game" called Miudinho where the capoeirstas play closer together and yet do both regional and angola movements. As far as style goes, it looks very similar to breakdancing but it actually came out of Brazil and is completely unique from breakdance since Suassuna was developing and using it when breakdance was still in its infancy. Check out [1] for an example. — Grundle 20:55, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well I won't push the point to have it mentioned in the introduction. However, I think a line or two somewhere that capoeira is constantly evolving, and that it can be influenced by external sources such as Asian martial arts, would be in order in some other section. I'll add it in some time unless someone else want to. — Asbestos | Talk 21:30, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My 2 cents on the relationship between Capoeira and Breakdancing, while not trying to prove anyone's wrong or even offend anyone. Just sharing what I know for a fact... Mestre Jelon Vieira and Loremil Machado introduced capoeira to the United States nearly thirty years ago in NYC. Even though the capoeira game 30 years ago wasn't the same as it is nowadays, we should be thinking more of Breakdancing copying Capoeira moves than Capoeira copying Breakdancing...not only but mostly because Capoeira obviously came first. It is true though that not only Capoeira influenced Break dancers, but other martial arts and gymnastics are also present in Breakdancing as well as in Capoeira. It's unfortunate though that Mestre Jelon hasn't published any books yet. But if someone get the chance to talk to him or read his bio will get facts that prove Capoeira strongly influenced Breakdancing. NYC was port of entry for Capoeira in the US in the mid 70s, when Mestre Jelon moved to NYC from Bahia and started teaching Capoeira. Breakdancing also originated in NYC a little later that that. How funny, eh? :) Vadinho 17:35pm CT, 11 Oct 2005

This last statement is wrong on many levels. I assume your knowledge of b.boying (the real term for what is commonly known as "breakdance" which is a term popularized by media but not actually used to refer to this style of dance originally) is based on an outsider perception, from watching some kids dancing on the streets or maybe on TV. As a former capoeirista and now a b.boy I can tell you how different the foundation from both arts are. As much as I respect Capoeira, the fact that it shares some tricks with b.boying doesn´t necessarily mean it influenced b.boying. If you watch the documentary "The Freshest Kids" (which is about b.boying history, including interviews with people who were at the beginning of the whole thing), you´ll get to know that main influences on the birth and developing of b.boying include tap dancing, rockin´(as in the a dance performed by latin gangs, not related to rock music), salsa, kung fu films and gymnastics. Most of the original b.boys from back in the days agree that no one knew anything about capoeira and even Crazy Legs (one of the members of the Rocksteady Crew) said he didn´t see capoeira until 1990. So obviously, capoeira took no part in the birth or first developement in b.boying (roughly from the 70´s to first 80´s). Nowadays, b.boying, as the free dance style it is and given the high level of emphasis on personal expression it has, can allow anyone to put moves or routines from other dance styles or martial arts on it. For example if you watch Seth from Circle of Fire, he´s obviously a capoeirista and includes some capoeira-based moves in his dance style. But, the fact is that capoeira did NOT influence b.boying, as I said, at it´s birth or developement. So please get your facts straight. Thanks Violenciafriki 14:36, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Just few more points from an old school B-Boy turned Capoeirista. There have been many discussions about the relationship between Capoeira and Breakdancing, but the arguments are (almost) always about one being based on or influenced by the other. I think it's necessary to to take a step back and look at the history of the two art forms. Most people agree that Capoeira is an art form based on martial arts and dance movements that exist (existed?) in Africa, and that the art was developed by enslaved Africans in Brazil. Breakdancing was developed in the Bronx (NYC) initially done by members of the Zulu Nation which, to put it simply, was a group trying to understand and get "reconnected" to their African roots. These two art forms do have a connection but it goes much further back than New York in the 70's. Their roots lie in Africa. The reasons for their development may be similar; a people who are disconnected from their roots trying to fill a cultural void in their current environment. Capoeira is an integral part of Brazilian culture and Breakdancing (b-boying, hip-hop) has become a very big part of American culture and history (aka Hip-Hop culture). Both arts provide a means for people to regain some self-identity, self-confidence and pride that allowed them to survive.

Peace - Comedia

Game?

Is it really correct to call capoeira a game? It is a martial art, and you wouldn't call karate or jujitsu a game. I think "game" implies a lack of seriousness, and i know that capoeiristas take it very seriously, especially since it was a matter of life and death historically. We should consider changing "game" to "form" or some similar word. --Bonus Onus 00:41, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

I would say unequivocally that capoeira is a game. It is also a martial art, and also, in some manner, a dance. The three are not mutually exclusive.

Capoeira in Brazil is usually called the "jogo de capoeira", or just "jogo": the game. People play capoeira, and people are complemented on for the beauty of their game. These terms do not diminish capoeira, nor imply a lack of seriousness.

However, as you raise a valid question, here are some references:

• "In capoeira, you always say what you're doing is a game. Even though it's a martial art you never say you're fighting - you're never fighting because it is not a fight, it's a game." Says Mestre João Grande.
• "A capoeira game is characterized by such dynamic movements as cartwheels, handstands and spontaneous acrobatics.... The object of the game is for the capoeiristas to use finesse, guile, and technique... Music is used to calm them down when the game has become too heated.". www.capoeira-angola.org.
• "The Capoeira game (or jogo) is a dance and a fight." www.ultimatemartialarts.net.
• "Capoeira is more than just another martial art, as it is an art of expression, play and personal interaction... In Portuguese, the language of Brazil, Capoeira is referred to as a jogo, or a game." Planet Capoeira (click on "What is Capoeira").
• "What is capoeira? Capoeira is a lot of things. Capoeira is a game. There is the fighting aspect, the dance, ritual and some very primitive instincts that you have that can be expressed through the game." www.capoeiragem.com.
• "What is Capoeira?? At once game, sport, mock combat, and ritualized performance ..." Jogo de Capoeira
• The title of the book Capoeira: Roots of the Dance-Fight-Game by Nestor Capoeira (where he refers to it as a "game" many dozens of times).

... to find more, just search for Capoeira on the net. These sources were from the main capoeira websites, but almost every school that has a site refers to capoeira as a game. — Asbestos | Talk 14:22, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

ok, i see that you're right. that's plenty of proof for me. -Bonus Onus 21:10, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

Sorry — I wasn't trying to hit you over the head with evidence. It's more that it is an interesting question, and I think that a lot of Mestres feel passionately about the fact that it should be considered a game. Maybe we should add one of these quotes (like the first by João Grande) to the article. — Asbestos | Talk 13:33, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My opinion on this matter, would be this: Chess players take their "games" very seriously too. Capoeira in the roda is a lot like chess, and I've always felt the jogo as a playful activity and have no qualms calling it a "game". It doesn't take away anything from the essence of the artform. Is capoeira serious? Deadly serious. Is it playful? Like a monkey on helium. Is it tricky? Very. My vote? Capoeira is something we play. — Tartaruga 04:58, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hi - new to this page, but glad to see the comprehensive job you guys have done on the entry here.

This won't help clarify things on the preceeding matter, but my opinion is that what makes Capoeira so compelling is it's shifting nature - one minute people can be playing and joking, the next minute fighting, or excuting all manner of acrobatic movements. This ambiguity extends to almost all aspects of the artform, and clearly makes it difficult to describe. So I wouldn't worry about that too much. I think if you try and sum it up with one word or phrase, you're always going to be feeling that you've just missed something. However, 'Jogo' is definitly the most common term of reference I've heard for the artform.

Regarding history; there's definitely no clear start point or origin. I don't know if you wanted to add into possible theories the Ngolo or Zebra dance, which certain anthropologists(sorry can't remember ref off hand) have posited as a source for Capoeira. It is just a theory, obviously, but I thought it might be good to include for completeness.

Here's a ref I pulled off Joao Grande's site: www.joaogrande.org/capoeira_angola - "In an old letter by Albano de Neves e Souza, it is stated that "N'golo is capoeira". Albano wrote that N'golo was an acrobatic zebra dance performed by young males of the Mucope people in Angola.." --Garysjp 6 July 2005 08:04 (UTC)

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Combat?

Isn't Capoeria an effective fighting technique aswell? The article focuses too much on calling it an art-form and sport.

Capoeira is used very little as fighting technique — it's use is almost entirely that spoken of in the article. This is as true today as it was a hundred years ago: most of the fight-dances that capoeira is thought to have evolved from used very little contact. In Brazil, if you want to learn a contact sport, you most commonly learn Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or an Asian martial art. — Asbestos | Talk 22:44, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

It is suprising you would say that Capoeira isn't a contact art. The most commonly practiced martial arts in Brazil are Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Vale-Tudo, and Capoeira. Many street rodas have degenerated into simple brawls resulting in bodily injury. If you want to make a distinction on whether Capoeira is useful as a fighting art you need to determine its present value in certain locations as well as which capoeira group it comes from. Many groups focus on its aesthetic value, but some focus on it as a violent martial art. Several groups that focus more on the martial aspect (that I can think of) are Grupo Axe and Grupo Capoeira Forca Rara. In the United States it is expressed more as an artform, but in Brazil it is still seen as an effective form of fighting. There are some capoeiristas who will go from studio to studio just to fight with a rival Jiu Jitsu or Capoeira school. If you don't think Capoeira is a contact sport I would advise attenting several street rodas in Brazil, because I firmly believe it would give you a new perspective. As for 100 years ago it was even more brutal than today. Many of the street thugs who practiced capoeira often put straight edge razors between their toes to be even more lethal. I think that some confusion on this point occurs because of the generally accepted ethics for fighting in a roda. Most capoeiristas will not complete a move that will cause bodily injury, but rather show the move to the opponent they are playing. To actually cause harm is looked upon as rude. Sometimes this rule is overlooked in batizados and in this case is done by a high ranking player against a less experienced person. In this case the experienced player should know enough to not injure the other person, but rather he will be revealing his mastery of capoeira to the other person. — Grundle | Talk 16:23, 19 July 2005 (UTC)