Talk:Canoe, British Columbia

comma province

This has been gone over exhaustively before in CANTALK or CANGEOG.....places that had distinct PO addresses and/or train stations or otherwise had an historic identity of their own are to titled in the comma-province format. Agassiz, Kent - Yarrow, Chilliwack (that's a redirect which is why it's blue unlike the others) - and also non-towns such as Silverdale, Mission are in Wikipedia as Agassiz, British Columbia, Yarrow, British Columbia and Silverdale, British Columbia for good reason (Ruskin, British Columbia is a bit different as it's in both Mission and Maple Ridge. Fort Langley is Fort Langley, British Columbia, it is not Fort Langley, Township of Langley, ditto not Tsawwassen, Delta or Ladner, Delta and Cloverdale, Surrey but Tsawwassen, British Columbia, Ladner, British Columbia and Cloverdale, British Columbia. Similarly Horseshoe Bay, Deep Cove, Port Hammond and other places within GVRD municipalities and elsewhere in BC. Insisting on Wikipedia-derived definitions that fly in the face of reality and words-in-use is original research; but this guideline on comma-province has been around for a while......Skookum1 (talk) 04:11, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Looks like it has been moved back to Canoe, British Columbia, where it should remain. Hwy43 (talk) 07:24, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Did Canoe previously hold its own municipal status, or was it previously a separate unincorporated community at some point before it was absorbed into the City of Salmon Arm? Also, if previously outside Salmon Arm and now within, when did this occur? The History section of this article is silent on all of this. Hwy43 (talk) 07:58, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

It had a Post Office and a CPR station and showed on highways maps as a distinct place......all those are criteria for comma-province. Salmon Arm expanded when it became a City, I think, I don't know in which year, it may be that Canoe was not part of it; it was never a municipality; read the BC Names citation.Skookum1 (talk) 09:12, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

The naming convention/MOS is crystal clear, and as Skookum says, it was the subject of lots of discussion. If disambiguation is required, neighbourhoods/villages/settlements/etc. (i.e. unincorporated settlements) are disambiguated by the name of the municipality. In special cases, we use the province - for this latter group of articles, so as to avoid arbitrary, circular and subjective discussions about whether a place has an historic identity or not (every place has a historic identity) or even more irrelevant discussions about what people would write on an envelope, a clear and unambiguous (and necessarily arbitrary) threshold was established - if Canada Post currently itself uses the "Place, Province" as a distinct mailing address, then here on Wikipedia we disambiguate by province. If not, we disambiguate by municipality. The point of having a clear threshold was to avoid subjective and endless oxygen-sucking discussions about identity, usage, regional quirks, personal views, etc., all of which had resulted in inconsistent and confusing naming of these articles. A post office, a train station, former incorporation, location in a particular region - none of these are criteria for comma-province under the applicable naming convention.

People seem to get disambiguation confused with how they would address a letter or how they would refer to the place in casual conversation. The two have nothing to do with one another. Disambiguation is a tool we use to name articles so titles do not conflict - it is not required nor intended to reflect vernacular usage (for God's sake - nobody says "My favourite soccer player as a kid was Joe Smith (footballer born 1953)"). The disambiguated term, whether it is in brackets or it follows a comma, is part of our article name, but it is not part of the common name, nor are we saying it is by using disambiguation.

There are exceptions to naming conventions (although there should be good reason why an article is unique and should be named differently than the naming convention). Moreover, naming conventions can always be reviewed (I personally think we should kick the tires of all of our MOS and guidelines every few years), although that's done comprehensively, not as one-offs. But let's at a minimum understand what the applicable naming convention says in this case. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 14:32, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

What I'm seeing here is that this article should remain at "Canoe, British Columbia" because it has a post office per WP:CANSTYLE#Neighbourhoods/communities. Hwy43 (talk) 04:14, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Sidebar comments: I'm not convinced however that every unincorporated neighbourhood/community that 1) is without a post office, 2) is within a municipality, and 3) requires dab, should use [[Neighbourhood, City]] (or more appropriately [[Place, Municipality]] per the note at CANSTYLE). Case in point, Alberta's hamlets. They are unincorporated communities within larger municipalities and 386 of the 389 of them are at [[Neighbourhood, Province]] (or more appropriately [[Hamlet, Province]]), whether they have a post office or not (the remaining three are undisambiguated). I won't extend this WP:OTHERSTUFF sidebar discussion much further than this. My point is that maybe this naming convention's tires should be kicked again soon. Hwy43 (talk) 04:14, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

The Post Office thing doesn't work across the board; and neither does the in-municipality-it's-comma-city. In the case of the post offices, the Ruskin PO (V0M 1R0) include Stave Falls, Stave Gardens and the Mission part of Iron Mountain ("upper Ruskin) as well as all of Maple Ridge east of about 280th (272nd is the Whonnock PO). Silverdale and Silverhill, which are entirely within Mission, has always been RR2 Mission. The Bridge River PO - at Shalalth - served the entire Bridge River Valley; Gold Bridge may have a PO.....and it's a town, just like Bralorne, which was a company town and though the largest settlement in what's now the regional district (Bralorne-Pioneer Mine had a total population of 8,000 plus maybe 3,000 in "suburban rural areas" around it........Ocean Falls and Anyox and Cassiar similarly were all company towns (I think Cassiar was incorporated for a while, not sure).....calling these "communities" because of a government classification/nomenclature citation when the common use is "town" is to me, just absurd........Steelhead, Mission and Stave Falls, Mission make no sense for non-BC readers, and they don't make sense to BC readers either. Wiki rules be damned, and thy'er not rules, they're guidelines yes need a good boot in the can. If a place is historically referred to as a town, whether it's incorporated or not or within an incorporation or not, it's a town.Skookum1 (talk) 05:39, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Folks, seriously, post offices have nothing to do with the naming convention. CANSTYLE says "Where a neighbourhood is recognized as a distinct and valid municipal address by Canada Post". It has nothing to do with post offices. In other words, when you look up the address, does Canada Post treat the settlement as it would a municipality? -- in the case of Scarborough, just as an example, does the Canada Post lookup say to use Scarborough, Ontario (then disamiguate by province) or Toronto, Ontario (disambiguate by municipality).

OTHERSTUFEXISTS examples are not particularly helpful ( Iagre with Hwy43), nor are the postal histories of various locations. Official or perceived status as a town (a status which varies tremendously from jusridsiction to jursidiction) is irrelevant. Skeezix1000 (talk) 16:53, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Skeezix1000, you are correct. And as I don'tdidn't know how to confirm if Canoe "is recognized as a distinct and valid municipal address by Canada Post" I've assumed that it is because it has a post office. Is this assumption correct for Canoe?

If it is correct for Canoe, then this discussion should be over as this article is at the title it should be (remember, this discussion was precipitated by the undiscussed move to Canoe, Salmon Arm).

If this assumption is not correct for all places with a post office, then I hope Skeezix1000 will confirm it is not safe to assume the case for all places, and then maybe we should add such a cautionary note regarding this at WP:CANSTYLE#Neighbourhoods/communities.

As this discussion is and should be about the appropriate title for this article and nothing else, I will not be commenting on any of the otherstuffexists examples. Hwy43 (talk) 18:33, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

It appears I now know how to confirm (the external link at WP:CANSTYLE#Neighbourhoods/communities). Hwy43 (talk) 19:36, 6 April 2013 (UTC)