Talk:Camille Saint-Saëns/Archive 1

Archive 1

Hyphen

Shouldn't there be a hyphen in the article title here (ie, Camille Saint-Saens). His name is certainly always spelled that way. I'd change it myself, but I don't know if there's a policy about not having hyphens in article titles for some reason (and what about accents as well; "Camille Saint-Saëns"). --Camembert

Hyphens are fine (they weren't on the old system). We can have accents, but there's an ongoing debate over how a page title with an accent affects that article's Googleability (see the policy pages). It's not a convention that's universally followed, and I've not been keeping up with the debate. In brief: either have Camille Saint-Saens -> redirect to Camille Saint-Saëns, or the other way round. -- Tarquin

Well, I can't see anything about accents in article titles in the policy pages (I may be missing something), and I've never seen his name spelt without the accent, so I've moved it here. If it seriously affects Google, somebody can switch it back, btu if that's done we'll have a mis-spelled article title, which is worse than missing a few hits from Google, in my opinion. --Camembert

Yes there is a policy on this issue and it is in wikipedia:naming conventions. "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is almost always used in English." Native transliteration includes the use of accents. In this case Google finds 10k hits with the ë spelling and 17k with the e spelling (looking only at English language sites yields 5k for the ë spelling and 10k for the e spelling). I would go with the dominant spelling (most people don't know how to create an ë with out having to copy the character and therefore will not be able to link to this article easily). At the very least Camille Saint-Saens should redirect here (which it does). --mav

Apologies, I thought that the transliteration guidelines applied only when we were moving from a completely different alphabet (Cyrillic, Greek, Urdu, whatever) - as French uses the same alphabet as English, I didn't think of it as transliteration at all. In fact, I hadn't given the whole matter a great deal of thought because for some reason I was thinking that Google ignored accents altogether. I suppose that if the spelling without the accent is more common (as it seems to be), the article should be there, but I'm convinced this spelling is the "right" one (in that it's the one used by CS-S himself and by English paper encyclopaedias, dictionaries, etc), and with the redirect from the more common spelling, there's no major problem is there? Anyway, do what you think is best.

Enough of this - I hate articles where the talk page is longer than the main entry... --Camembert

The hyphen is entirely a French-language thing, similar to spelling names like "McDonald" with a small-c followed by a capital, and is absolutely necessary. On a related note, I'm also of the opinion that the ë is just as necessary, since (1) it affects the pronunciation of the name; (2) it is not transliterated or translated; and (3) that's simply how it's spelled (perhaps English unilinguists won't understand the point). In any event, people can easily reach this page without having to type the accent. Furthermore, similar articles maintain the proper accents in their titles, such as those on Fauré and Dvořák. --Todeswalzer|Talk 01:36, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Confidence of the European man

The Maestoso of the second movement is clearly an expression of the confidence of the European man in himself, in his technology, his science, his "age of reason".

Is this a POV (some sort of music criticism) or can it be supported by facts (such as text of Saint-Saëns's correspondence)? Del arte 20:24, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

---

this work in particular is inserted in the hearth of the sense of "gigantism" of the dying XIX century, it is clearly enmarked alongside with the trend of the Eiffel Tower, the Universal Exposition at Paris and the beginning of the "belle epoque".

Was this passage machine translated? I can't make much sense of it at all. Would someone who knows what this is meant to say kindly have a stab at fixing it? Graham 04:04, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Best Pianist After Liszt?

It is shoddy scholarship to objectively state that Saint-Saëns "was unequalled on organ" based on Liszt's remarks, and it is even worse to assert that Saint-Saëns' pianism was "rivaled only by Liszt". The latter statement is especially unfair to virtuosi of the day including Dreyschock, Anton Rubinstein, Henselt, and Alkan.

The following has been removed from the article:

Saint-Saëns' compositional style:

In performance, Saint-Saëns was unequalled on the organ and rivaled only by Liszt on the piano—Liszt himself thought that they were the two best pianists in Europe. However, Saint-Saëns' concert style was subtle and cool; he sat unmoving at the piano.

--Wikipedia User 04:06, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. The paragraph seems to have reappeared, however, so I'll qualify and expand on it. --Mordant21 22:31, 7 June 2005 (UTC)

The original paragraph was obviously POVed, but if it is in fact true that Liszt thought of Saint-Saëns and himself as the best pianists in Europe, that certainly deserves to be mentioned. — Pladask 11:41, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

Liszt said in 1866 that he thought Bizet was the best organist in Europe, not pianist - by Liszts observation the best 3 pianists in Europe in his lifetime were himself, Alkan and Bizet. --MaxW

What is the scholarly basis for the assertion by CSS, that he was a pederast, presented in the article?

I don't think it is that important to be talking about this. We don't even know if Liszt was such a great pianist. I have never heard him. I think that he could have been a great pianist, but it is just a likley that he wasn't. Let me just say that from Liszt's music it would be hard for me to believe that he was very musical (except for his sonata) and that there is no way we will know who the great pianists were back then.

I don't know who posted the above paragaph, but I found the comments to be pedantic and ignorant to the highest degree.

I suppose that if no one alive has ever heard Liszt play, then we should entirely disregard the thousands of concurring written accounts which exist, that reiterate the most amazing performances ever heard. At least, that's what the person above seems to think. Also, I don't know who you are to think that you can judge the musical quality of Franz Liszt.Only someone with no real musical training and only a limited music history knowledgebase would say that at all. Saying that only his Sonata was musical is completely absurd. His Rhapsodies may not have had the illustration and poetry of the Chopin etudes, but they were certainly just as developed in the way of technique. ( he was ,in fact, the dedicatee of the etudes). If whoever posted the comment above needs any more assurance that they are WRONG, look up Don Juan fantasy somewhere and listen, to see if you can honestly deny that as excellent music.( also I would love to hear why it is "likely" that he was not a great pianist)

Agreed 100%. As I've noticed on many online forums, it has become trendy to speak lowly of Franz Liszt in general. (of course this trend was started by Brahms and Schumann, not to slight their work at all, but regretably their pretensions have found their way into modern music criticism) I don't care if he was a good pianist or not, (though if his compositions mean anything, I don't think many people other than someone who was an amazing pianist would compose the way he did, any music score or midi indicates this without much dispute) but the more I hear his work, I realize that he was an incredible composer... Again this is subjective, but I can't believe how much his work is slighted these days.

That said, I would be all the more amazed if he were not an exceptional piano player, and if all of the accounts of his playing, even by his rivals, were not true. It's kind of like claiming that Bach or Buxtehude were unlikely to be skilled organists, because no one observed them play, ignoring the fact that like Liszt, their compositions+improvisations seem to indicate tremendous virtuosity.

I will also add that I think Liszt was far more proficient in music theory than he was given credit, for one example he was able to compose contrapuntal pieces when he desired. (in his organ works) Similarly, I think the criticism was directed towards him was due to the fact that people at the time were generally hostile towards the new Romantic composers.

Finally, maybe it's just me but I think Liszt's output was far more diverse than Chopin's, and I far prefer it... that's just me.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.87.74.5 (talk) 04:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Jewish Heritage

I have read from some sources that Saint-Saëns' mother was Jewish. Can anyone confirm this for me? If so, then I think we should add him to the "Jewish classical musicians" category. Batman Jr. 23:08, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

This is first I hear of this. I don't think it true but interesting if it is. Nunetide

NPOV

It seems to me that the "Reputation" and "Style" sections go a little far in attacking Saint-Saëns.

"He had been the embodiment of artistic modernity during the 1850s and 1860s, but soon transformed himself into a crusty and somewhat bitter reactionary."

"As a composer, Saint-Saëns has always bordered on the edge of obscurity, often criticized for his refusal to embrace romanticism and at the same time, rather paradoxically, for his adherence to the conventions of 19th century musical language. He is sometimes disparagingly referred to as "the greatest second-rate composer who ever lived" and 'the greatest composer who was not a genius.'"

"Saint-Saëns the composer was widely regarded by his contemporaries and some later critics as writing music that is elegant and technically flawless, but occasionally dry and uninspired."

"The piano music, while not as deep or as challenging as that of some of his contemporaries, forms the stylistic connection between Liszt and Ravel."

These are all very subjective and I'm not sure if they're totally accurate. I'm adding an NPOV tag, so if anyone wants to discuss it, I'm all ears!

Romain Rolland, a prominent French writer of fiction ("Jean Christophe") and artistic criticism, wrote a book of musical criticism ("Musiciens d'aujourd'hui"), published in 1908, with a chapter on Saint-Saens, where he made many comments about Saint-Saens's classicism, "untouched by passion," etc. The discussion there supports the statement that "the composer was widely regarded by his contemporaries and some later critics as writing music that is elegant and technically flawless, but occasionally dry and uninspired." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.193.56 (talk) 06:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Smedley Hirkum 08:49, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed; pretty biased. On the other hand, some say he was responsible for saving classical music in France. Navins 03:35, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this goes too far. Every great composer has recieved tons of negative criticism, it is unneccessary to go around trumpeting it unless it is raised on strong grounds. Also, the article states that Saint-Saëns is only rememberd for his organ symphony, 2nd and 4th concerto, the opera Samson et Dalia and The Carnival of the Animals (this list is already too long for the word 'only' to apply), but this list is way too short! What about Danse Macabre and his cello concerto? He is also remembered for his chamber music, the oboe and bassoon sonatas are a great and importnant retribution to the repertoire of these instruments. --Satúrnus 12:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Let's be serious here. They aren't attacking Saint-Saens, but merely saying he is not a great composer. He is a good composer, but he really only survied becasue of his Carnival of the Animals and 3rd Symphony.

Let's be serious. The role of wikipedia is not to label artists as "good" or "great." An encyclopedia ought to be objective. If you care to cite your sources and quote a critic who says, "Saint-Saëns is not a great composer. He is a good composer," feel free. But wikipedia is not a personal soapbox for you, I, or anyone else to express our personal opinions on the subjective quality of musicians. 66.17.105.226 13:23, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

"Let's be serious here. They aren't attacking Saint-Saens, but merely saying he is not a great composer. He is a good composer, but he really only survied becasue of his Carnival of the Animals and 3rd Symphony."

That was quite honestly one of the most disgusting things that can be said; and said by someone that obviously knows nothing of music history. ("Le Carnival des Animaux," for example, was only performed after his death.) Pie87 July 12th, 2006

...And OBVIOUSLY Saint-Saens' Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso and his 3rd violin concerto didn't help him survive, right, Master IDon'tKnowAnythingAboutViolinMusic? Your knowledge, or lack thereof, astounds me.TheFlyingSquirrel 17:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

... Yes and the second piano concerto, who was loved by Liszt, probably the most popular, and without a doubt the most fanatically loved musician of the 19th century, did surely not help his reputation a bit? Saint-Saëns's flawless oboe and bassoon sonatas, atributed to the way too small repertoire for these instruments probably made all oboists and bassoonists hate him or what? --194.144.188.193 12:27, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

The "crusty and somewhat better reactionary" line is definitely NPOV. I don't think there's anything wrong with the second line, while I don't necessarily agree with it, it's a fact that he's been often crticized in these terms. The last line seems borderline. DSZ

I've had a go at removing some of the subjective comments. I've also moved the npov tag so there's one on each section mentioned above, not one at the top of the whole article. I think it was Debussy who said Saint-Saens was "the greatest composer who wasn't a genius", but I can't find a citation. --RobertG ♬ talk 10:40, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I at least found somebody giving Thomas Beecham as the source of the second-rate quote, although it seems that it may have been more along the lines of "some of his music is second-rate" than "he's entirely a second-rate composer". Unfortunately, I don't know the actual citation at this point. If Debussy is the one who made the comment about him not being a genius, it should at least be made clear that the quote says more about their rivalry than about Saint-Saens' talent. I also dropped the parts about bordering on obscurity and the "limited" number of works that make up his legacy—the first comment is fairly ridiculous, and given how many works are listed "limited" is hardly the right adjective. --Michael Snow 04:47, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

What should "reputation" include _besides_ subjective comments? What is nessesary is that we know whose judgment we're dealing with, and quotes would be helpful.. All I have close at hand is Ravel (Shapiro's Encyclopedia of Quotations About Music): "I'm told that Saint-Saëns has informed a delighted public that since the war began he has composed music for the stage, melodies, an elegy and a piece for trombone. If he'd been making shell-cases instead it might have been all the better for music." Letter to Jean Marnold, Oct. 7 1916 I take this as an ironic comment on S-S's nationalistic polemics rather than a dismissal of the music... Sparafucil 00:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Misconceptions of the title "Virtuoso" in some of the Discussion/Anon

Saint-saens may have been a talented pianist, prodigious sight-reader, and profound technician, but he certainly did not deserve the title "virtuoso". In fact, he himself admitted he was no virtuoso or even strived to be one.(see Harold C. Schoenberg's book: "The Pianists")

The nonsense about Saint-Saens being commended as the second greatest pianist must be cleared up. Liszt specifically said that he, Von Bulow, and Bizet were the best pianists of the day.(see Harold C. Shoenberg's book: "The pianists") Also, Henselt and Alkan were shy and reclusive, too scared to perform in public, therefore could not seriously be called virtuoso material. Lastly, Dreyschock was considered a virtuoso by many but his career was so short and his pianistic feats so shallow, that any informed person could not possibly put him in the same rank as Liszt. Dreyschock was known only for his ability to play the melody of Chopin's "revolutionary" etude in octaves at the indicated tempo. It took him a great deal of practice to achieve this whereas Liszt copied the feat with no practice at all during a live performance of chopin's F minor etude.

When posting comments on a discussion please make sure you are correctly informed as to the reality of any assertations or speculations you may have, so more erroneous rumors do not germinate.

Date of birth

This article says 3 October but Grove (opera) and Oxford both give 9 October so I am correcting this. --Kleinzach 13:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Sound files / quality

I don't mean to offend anybody, but I listend to the sound files and it struck me that performance wasn't quite as expected, to say the least. Also, the "production" sounds a bit like a microphone and a tape recorder.

I understand that it may not be easy to publish professional material under the GFDL. And it's probably not bad for a college orchestra, but still...

DI (talk) 20:51, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Which sound file are you talking about? Some of them sound pretty ok to me if you ask me. Since they are free you have to have certain expectations. You can't get something free and except it to be a Pavarotti. I think the thinking is that they are just free examples to show you what his music is like. They aren't meant to be the best version of it since you have to pay for that.

While we are on this, has anyone heard any sounds of Saint-Saens playng his own music on the piano. I heard there are some very old recordings out there. They may be free from copywrite because there so old.

Piano Concerto 2 in G Minor

I am no professional critic, but the style section in particular seems very harsh; this piece in particular strikes me as inspired. Mistercupcake (talk) 08:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes this is one his most famous concertos for piano. Plus there is his concerto for piano no. 5 Nunetide

It's often been said the 2nd concerto "opens with Bach and ends with Offenbach". Quite an apt comment. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:59, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, the style section is certainly harsh, but I don't think it should be changed; he is often dismissed by critics as being a really good composer, just not a great one, and this article does a good job with conveying that impression. Personally, however, I think that such criticism is unfounded - all 5 piano conertos are magnificent pieces, in my opinion, and the last movement of the second piano concerto is nowhere near being like Offenbach (the above comment is certainly not apt at all). In fact, I would rank the 5 Saint-Saens concertos along with Beethoven's, and I think there are some who agree with me.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.3.247.214 (talk) 23:25, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Something strange with the Carnival of the Animals

I'm confused by what the page says about Saint-Saens's Carnival of the Animals. It says that he "debuted" it in 1886. But didn't he try to hide it because he was afraid it would ruin his reputation? I thought it wasn't made public until after he died. Something doesn't make sense here.

There's also a cool performance of it on youtube with Misha Maisky and Roger Moore of James Bond fame. No Roger Moore doesn't play any instrument. He reads a poem before each part, like a poem on kangaroos before the kangaroos part. I think he redeemed himself here for the atrocity of his James Bond.

Boondigger (talk) 05:10, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Camille Saint-Saëns/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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==Composers Project Assessment of Camille Saint-Saëns: 2009-02-25== This is an assessment of article Camille Saint-Saëns by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? ok ===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? ok ===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? ok ===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. Musical compositions listed; how about some bibliography for his writing? ===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? ok ===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) ok, but could use more images; sound clips should be integrated better. ===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article has references; few inline citations. Tagged. ===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) Lead is short; omits writing credit ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD) ===Summary=== This is a pretty good article, with a nice balance of biography and musicology. The main flaw in the article is already noted -- there are a number of statements (for example, the tale of his stormy exit from the Rite of Spring premiere) that demand citation. The other obvious defect is that the lead (which is too short, per WP:LEAD) does not mention his many other avocations, especially his writings, which receive notable mention in the article. A bibliography of his writings (especially any that may still be reasonably available today) should be provided. Article is B-class; needs some work for either A or formal reviews. Magic♪piano 20:02, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 20:02, 25 February 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 08:52, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Disorganization

OK, one more thing. The page needs some reorganization. There is a whole section on relationships with other composers but then it is under legacy? That's doesn't make sense. What does Saint-Saens storming out at Stravinsky's Rite of Spring have anything to do with his legacy? I know he influenced some younger composers but I think it should still go under its own section. In any case the "Works" section should probably go before the "Legacy" section, I think.

Boondigger (talk) 05:13, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Ancestry

Hi. I think I read somewhere that Saint-Saens might have some Belgian or Flemish ancestry in his blood lines. I haven't seen this anywhere else. Is this true or is this error false? Thank you. --Balakali (talk) 01:55, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Style

No matter what I or anyone else thinks personaly about Saint-Saens in what his ability it to compose music, I see this whole section and it should have sources and it has not even ONE. So it needs some. I copied it here below:

Style

What gives Sebastian Bach and Mozart a place apart is that these two great expressive composers never sacrificed form to expression. As high as their expression may soar, their musical form remains supreme and all-sufficient.

– Camille Saint-Saëns, from a letter to Camille Bellaigire, 1907

Saint-Saëns the composer was widely regarded by his contemporaries and some later critics as writing music that is elegant and technically flawless, but occasionally dry, uninspired, and lacking emotion. His works have been called logical and clean, polished, professional, and never excessive. His concertos and many of his chamber music works are both technically difficult and transparent, requiring the skills of a virtuoso. The later chamber music pieces, such as the second violin sonata, the second cello sonata, and the second piano trio, are less accessible to a listener than earlier pieces in the same form. They were composed and performed when Saint-Saëns was already slipping in popularity and, as a result, they are little known. They show a willingness to experiment with more progressive musical language and to abandon lyricism and charm for more profound expression.

The piano music, while not as deep or as challenging as that of some of his contemporaries, occupies the stylistic ground between Liszt and Ravel. At times brilliant, transparent and idiomatic, the music for two pianos includes the Variations on a Theme by Beethoven, the Scherzo, a palindromic piece that uses a blend of modern tonalities and conventional gestures, and the Caprice Arabe, a rhythmically inventive fantasy that pays homage to the music of northern Africa. Although Saint-Saëns was considered old-fashioned in later life, he explored many new forms and reinvigorated some older ones. His compositional approach was inspired by French classicism, which makes him an important forerunner of the neoclassicism of Ravel and others.

In performance, Saint-Saëns is said to have been "unequalled on the organ", and rivaled by only a few on the piano. However, Saint-Saëns's concert style was restrained, subtle, and cool; he sat unmoving at the piano. His playing was marked by extraordinarily even scales and passagework, great speed, and aristocratic refinement. The recordings he left at the end of his life give glimpses of these traits. He was often charged with being unemotional and business-like, less memorable than other more charismatic performers. He was probably the first pianist to publicly perform a cycle of all the Mozart piano concertos. In some cases these influenced his own piano concertos; for example, the first movement of his fourth piano concerto, in C minor, strongly resembles the last movement of Mozart's 24th Concerto, which is in the same key. In turn, his own concertos appear to have influenced those of Sergei Rachmaninoff and other later Romantic composers. Throughout his life, Saint-Saëns continued to play with the technique taught to him by Stamaty, using the strength of the hand rather than the arm. Claudio Arrau never forgot the ease with which Saint-Saëns played (he cites Chopin's fourth Scherzo as an example).

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Balakali (talk • contribs) 02:08, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Last name

I've seen somewhere his name spelled St Saens. Is this right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Srhgrd (talk • contribs) 00:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I've never seen it anything but Saint, though of course someone could easily make a mistake and use the common abbeviation. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 02:17, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Removed image

I've replaced Image:Saintsaens.jpg with another - I didn't think that the old image was worth keeping, but, of course, if you disagree, put it back in somewhere =) User:Shoemaker's Holiday 16:02, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

The old one works a lot better as a lead pic, but both are fine in the article. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Weel, I really wish it was a bit less streaky. Such streaks annoy me =) Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 16:29, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This is a pretty nice article, covering most of what I expect to see in a composer bio. The lead neads some work, and there should be a bibliography of his writings. My full review is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 20:08, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Infobox

I thought we didn't do this for composers? Should we state in the article's lead that he was an existentialist, that he died of pneumonia? If so, put it in the lead. If not, why put it in an infobox which is just as much a part of the lead? If it's already in the lead, why state it again in an infobox? --RobertG ♬ talk 06:12, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Infoboxes create a nice summation of the person, where they are burried how old they were when they died etc. People who come to the page who want a quick refference sometimes dont't have time or want to read though possibly mountains of text to discover magically what he died of, where he is burried who his parents were. It makes it easier for people to get the information they want quickly. We can't put everything in the lead. Not to mention it makes the article look nice, instead of having a random picture floating off to the side saying "YES this is Camille Saint-Saëns" --TheVOC (talk) 08:08, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

We certainly don't use infoboxes in composer articles per Wikipedia:WikiProject Composers#Biographical infoboxes. Graham87 11:41, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Descent

While perusing through the article, I noticed the entry stating that he was of Jewish descent. Having never heard of that previously, I was wondering what the basis for that statement was. I was unaware of that fact. Is there a source for it? Dr. Dan (talk) 04:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I added a few sources at Camille_Saint-Saëns#Origins. It seems that he had Jewish traits and that he got the "Saint-Saëns" name from her mother. --Enric Naval (talk) 03:53, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

So... just to be clear here. Unless a person has a non-Christian-sounding paternal surname... they must be Jewish. Because that's what you appear to be suggesting with the "Saint-Saens is the name of his mother" remark. Soundsboy (talk) 06:47, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Marriage

The matter of his marriage seemed to me to warrant a bit more detail, being rather extraordinary, and perhaps indicative of his temperament. Noting that he left his wife forever after just a few years leaves much unsaid. In numerous biographies one can find the reason, namely that their two sons died abruptly, and Saint-Saens held his very young wife responsible for one, if not both. Hence, his rude departure. I don't have an authoritative source at hand, but this story appears in numerous secondary sources. Abuelo jack (talk) 02:34, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Defining Saint-Saëns' Music - Not a "Classicist"

After some consideration I have removed the term "classical" from the first sentence of this entry for a number of reasons. Firstly, while Saint-Saëns can be identified as a composer, his music was not part of the classical school, as it were, of composition of the late 18th and early 19th centuries, despite some of his music having similarities to late classicists like Mendelssohn; he cannot be said to have been a part of nor contributed to the classicist movement of music. Also, the link that was attached to the word "classical" in that opening sentence takes the reader to a wikipedia page describing the term "classical" in its various usages, only some of them pertaining to music in the way it was used here, and therefore misleading to anyone not intimately familiar with 18th and 19th century musical movements. (perhaps it should link to the exact "classical music" page instead?) The term seems to have been included here to differentiate "popular" from "classical" music in the very basic sense, as it is done on MP3 libraries, and does not appear consistent with an encyclopaedia entry. Given Saint-Saëns' dates, the references to and list of his works in this entry, it is sufficient to calssify him as a "composer" rather than a "classical" composer.(Peaky beaky (talk) 00:37, 2 September 2008 (UTC))

While Saint-Saens wasn't a classical period composer, he most certainly WAS a classical music composer. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 02:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Saint-Saens is a Romantic composer who utilized Classical forms in the way Mendelssohn did. He is not a Classical composer.HammerFilmFan (talk) 21:32, 7 April 2011 (UTC)HammerFilmFan

Dies irae

This famous tune was placed briefly in one of Saint-Saens works but I don't remember which. Its only there for a couple seconds. Whatever work it is it's not a famous one. I've been trying to build a personal list of all the music in the world that has the Dies irae in it but without listening to all of Saint-Saens less famous works in close detail I haven't been able to find it. I wish someone out there can help save me all that work if they happens to know it and what I'm talking about. Please?

It's used in his Requiem and also (I think) in the Danse Macabre. Wilus (talk) 14:23, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The main theme of the Third (Organ) Symphony quotes the first five pitches of the Dies Irae — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.80.109.87 (talk) 03:12, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Modern Musicians by J. Cuthbert Hadden

Note for future editors. A short biography (popular in style) of Saint-Saens can be found in the book:

Modern Musicians by J. Cuthbert Hadden (First published by T.N.Foulis in 1913) - (my copy is the September 1918 Foulis reprint)

I'm using my copy but four public domain copies are available at the Internet Archive. Here's two of those:

http://archive.org/details/modernmusiciansb00haddiala

http://archive.org/details/cu31924022415297

I have a different image in my book. A photograph. I will scan it and add it to this article. I will not be removing any existing images.

Sluffs (talk) 13:48, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Picture

Added a photo of Saint-Saens by Nadar - hope it will stay, because haven't found any quality picture to use in the Wikipedia Signpost, to ilustrate the entry with, so I found one an added it. Hope it might stay in the article. Hafspajen (talk) 05:53, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Homosexuality

And, time ago, this article had some reference to his "suspected homosexuality". I'm going to re-add it somewhere, with sources. --Enric Naval (talk) 03:56, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Ah, now someone has removed both homosexuality and Jewish traits saying that the whole section is ridiculous[1]. I don't think that it's correct to remove anything controversial from biographies. I don't think that we want to have sanitized biographies with only the positive things. We are supposed to cover all points of view in a person's life. If you think that the section is bad then rewrite to reflect better the topic instead of removing everything. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:25, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Frankly, it is "ridiculous." Who cares what Leopold Godowsky said -- literally every biography states his mother's name was Clemence Collin. So how exactly is Saint-Saens his mother's name? Furthermore, the very source you link to in this section Here states that Saint-Saens sent a letter to the author stating he wasn't Jewish... so why is there even discussion of this anymore? I know it's a big hobby on wikipedia to turn everyone who "might kinda sorta maybe have Jewish descent" Jewish, but that section was just laughably desperate. Soundsboy (talk) 07:00, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Please don't assume stuff about me, I don't know about this hobby. A complete biography should explain all notable aspects of a person, as reported in sources. I explained the name thing better. And I added that he is nowadays considered non-Jewish, and how the confusion still existed back in Nazi Germany, when they were trying to learn which musicians were Jewish and which weren't. --Enric Naval (talk) 19:40, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

The homosexual part is also a bit on the fringe side. Soundsboy (talk) 07:00, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Is his admitted paedophilia also not worth mentioning? 79.75.222.101 (talk) 12:48, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

And his homosexuality (or rumors of it) is notable enough to be reported in dozens of books [2], including biographies about him and biographies of musics he related to. --Enric Naval (talk) 19:40, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Probably doesn't mean anything, but the Wikipedia entry for the name "Saens" notes that it is a Spanish name of (mostly) Jews. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.226.93 (talk) 02:12, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Does it matter what his sexual preferences were, it's not exactly what Saëns was most known for. To be honest I can't understand the obsession some people show for adding categories, or even whole subsections of text, like here, about people's sexual preferences to BLPs. If the subject of an article wasn't very open about it, and described it as a very important part of their life, or a major source of inspiration, it simply doesn't belong in the article. Thomas.W ^{talk to me} 11:11, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Your opinion is noted. On the other hand I disagree. It's absence is odd. Contaldo80 (talk) 13:10, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

If there are books and other reliable sources as Enric Naval says which actually document this information, then of course we must include it in order for the article to be broad in its coverage and comprehensive. Enric Naval is quite correct in his statements above, unless by any chance the sources are not reliable. I say this as a Camille Saint-Saëns fan, which is beside the point. In reference to the statements of Soundsboy, even if this information is considered fringe, it should still be included as long as it is given due WP:WEIGHT. Such information would certainly be notable. I am curious of the opinion of User:Tim riley who recently went to the trouble to ensure the article is comprehensive enough to become FA. Prhartcom (talk) 16:19, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

The matter is in fact already covered in the article; as nobody commented adversely on the treatment of the subject during the peer review or the featured article candidacy, I think we can take it there was a consensus that it has been handled suitably. Tim riley talk 16:39, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Pah. I only just now realised that I have contributed to an old but somehow revived discussion. Agreed; the level of this subject's treatment in this FA seems quite appropriate. Prhartcom (talk) 16:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm afraid I've only started editing this article so wasn't around during the peer review. To be honest I struggled somewhat with finding the reference, and am puzzled as to why so much of the detail is in the footnote rather than the article? I suggest linking the footnote, however, to the para dealing with his marriage - as this is where many people would expect the topic to be of direct relevance. Contaldo80 (talk) 12:41, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for being so considerate. In fact, I had no problem with this version (except for the duplicate citation of an already existing source, <ref name=duchen />), but others might think differently. Do you think that inserting a link to note 11 in the sentence "In 1875 he surprised many by marrying a woman" would be helpful? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:05, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I think that would be great if that could be done. Thanks for being so constructive. Contaldo80 (talk) 13:09, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

It's only a small change, but it pays to be careful with Featured Articles. Let's wait a little bit for User:Tim riley's input on this matter. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:52, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

The point is that there is no evidence published in any WP:RS that I can find of the composer's sexual preferences. As several authors have speculated that he may have been homosexual it is right to mention their speculation briefly in the main text, as we have done, but confining the speculative details to a footnote is the proportionate course. Where a subject's homosexuality is documented and is of major importance in his or her history, as with the FAs on Noël Coward or Hugh Walpole we give it appropriate prominence in the article. I should welcome a link from the "surprised many by marrying" to the existing footnote on the speculation, if anyone knows how to insert such a thing (I don't). I have reverted the infelicitous "marrying a woman". He was hardly going to marry a man. Amazingly, they didn't even have Civil Partnerships in 1870s France. Tim riley talk 15:19, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Tim, I have added the link as you requested. Prhartcom (talk) 18:41, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

That's spot-on! Thank you so much. I shall study the coding you've added and stash it away for use in other articles where two or more links to the same explanatory note would be helpful. I've learned something today, and am most grateful. Tim riley talk 18:54, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

You're quite welcome, so pleased you like it, and I also learned the same thing today (first time I tried that). Prhartcom (talk) 19:01, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

saint-saëns other interests

I've found several biographies that state that SS was an expert or really interested in botany (especially lepidoptera), geology (incl. vulcanology), archaeology, mathematics, and astronomy. I know Tim Riley addressed this issue, but it may be noteworthy of mention. Triplecaña (talk) 18:17, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Whether or not this is notable may depend on whether he was regarded as an expert in any of these areas, or whether his interests are reflected in his music in some way. A small point: unless the recent revolution in DNA sampling has overturned the categories I learned in school, lepidoptera (moths and butterflies) are not classed as botanical.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:23, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Valse Canariote 1890

Addition, short review about the travel to Gran Canaria (Canary Islands) and his fascination for the islands in his Valse Canariote. Reference, link and image were included

--Fergus_Manx 18:09, 19 April 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SpaceMAN (talk • contribs)

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Musikmeile

Can I ask, what on earth is the point of including, as the last illustration, the pavement star in Vienna commemorating SS? He had no close contacts with the city, and the Musikmeile (which is not explained in the caption or in the text), whilst it may be a fun item for the tourist, is not germane in any way to SS's story. Why not, e.g. the tomb in Montparnasse, of which there are examples in Commons - surely more appropriate. Yours in whingingness, --Smerus (talk) 15:24, 7 September 2018 (UTC) (Tunbridge Wells).

I agree, and have removed it. Tim riley talk 16:38, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

The surname Saint-Saëns

I've often wondered who St. Saëns was. I discovered the Irish monk Sidonius of Saint-Saëns, and a monastery called "Saint-Saëns", which makes me think Saëns is a French variant of Sidonius. True?

Also, since there's a diaeresis over the e in Saëns, why is this routinely ignored? Shouldn't it be pronounced as two syllables, "Sa-ons" (more or less)? -- JackofOz (talk) 00:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I would also like to see some kind of source for the pronunciation. Psychojosh13 (talk) 15:07, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

The name Saint-Saëns derives from the little town of Saint-Saëns in the department of Seine-Maritime, in Upper Normandy, pop. 2500.

The town is named after St Sidoneus, a Seventh Century Benedictine abbot who died in 684. His feast-day is November 14. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.87.248.162 (talk) 21:44, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

208.87.248.162 (talk) 21:45, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Also in the pronunciation part you've made the final s optional, whereas on the French Wikipedia page it isn't! Fuficius Fango (talk) 14:00, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Lead picture

I don't think the recently added File:Camille Saint-Saëns in 1900 by Pierre Petit.jpg is an improvement over the previous File:Saint-Saëns-circa-1880.jpg as the article's lead picture. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:46, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

No, it was indeed perhaps not better. But why isn't the Nadar photograph (used in the article, obviously) used in the lead section? It's the best portrait, isn't it? This being said, this page is very good. Congratulations to you all.U.A.— 20:41, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Isn't the dieresis over the e in Saëns supposed to indicate that it is to be pronounced as a separate vowel from the preceding one? ZFT (talk) 21:05, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

No. Tim riley talk 21:32, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

I always wondered about this too, Tim. What's its purpose then? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:34, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

In fact, I asked this very question up above at "The surname Saint-Saëns" in 2008, but I still await a reply. That's OK, I have patience. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:39, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

It is a wicked French plot to confuse innocent Englishmen, as in the otiose grave accent in première and the ludicrous circumflex in château. Tim riley talk 21:53, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Later, and slightly shamefacedly, @Cg2p0B0u8m: can you perhaps help us out with a more objective explanation? Tim riley talk 22:25, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Interestingly, the other person who springs to mind - Madame de Staël - is listed separately in the voyelles section over at le Wiktionnaire: Le dictionnaire libre [3] so there may be two origins (hence their different pronunciations) of this combination. Unless someone knows someone at the Académie française they can ask, I would suggest just accepting that there must be a very good reason for doing this... Is this objective enough?!Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:51, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

That's most interesting - thank you very much, mon général. In passing, Ogden Nash's verses for Carnival of the Animals begin with the words, "Camille Saint-Saëns was wracked with pains, When people addressed him as Saint Sanes", but I digress. Tim riley talk 22:51, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Actually, the correct pronunciation is not "sɛ̃sɑ̃s" but "sɛ̃sɑ̃." No self-respecting Frenchman would pronounce the final "s" (except in the case of elision). I had this conversation with a French lady (in the café of the Louvre, of all places) who was very surprised to hear that Americans almost universally pronounce the name incorrectly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.214.18.122 (talk) 12:57, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Arguably. Yet, many contemporary (younger) French speakers will pronounce that final s..U.A.— 20:35, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't think this question will ever be – or can be – answered definitively. Our francophone colleagues chez Wikipédia Fr are unequivocal that the final s is sounded (pace the lady in the Louvre café), but they add an interesting footnote, citing an article "Doit-on prononcer le "s" final de Saint-Saëns ?", to the effect that the composer preferred his name to be pronounced like that of the village Saint-Saëns, which, the note says, was pronounced without a final s until 1940–1950 and was spelled without a final s until 1840–1860. – Tim riley talk 21:18, 10 August 2020 (UTC)