Talk:Caldwell Esselstyn/Archive 1

Harriet Hall as an authority on this diet?

This article is a hack job by an editor who must believe in some opposing dietary theory. You give a nut job like Harriet Hall the authority to demean the when her credentials don't match Esselstyn's. It's articles like this that make me lose faith in Wikipedia. This article badly needs cleaned up. Whys doesn't this article site his published research which is available on the web?

I cleaned up the dietary section it was a bit opinionated and not following WP:NPOV.Timpicerilo (talk) 20:05, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In fact WP:PSCI requires us to contextualize dubious views with something more sensible, and WP:PARITY suggests the Hall source is good for this. Alexbrn (talk) 03:56, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not seeing how Harriet Hall's article is a reliable source. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/bill-clintons-diet/ Here is a paragraph from it: "I think Bill Clinton’s diet is based more on hope and desperation than on solid scientific evidence. I have to admire his self-discipline in sticking to a difficult diet; I only wish he had displayed the same level of self-discipline in his encounters with White House interns." I'm sorry, but this does not strike me as a scientific article, but the opinion of a former physician who provides commentary on Bill Clinton. Emeraldflames (talk) 17:18, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Science-Based Medicine is a great source. Also see WP:PARITY. 17:27, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

No photo?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2D80:4027:814F:D4B7:D715:F8B9:2E17 (talk) 17:10, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This guy is all over the internet, can we get a photo up? 2605:A601:5AA:5501:DD73:F2F:3750:9FAC (talk) 19:52, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we need a photo, B-U-T- ... don't protocol requirements prohibit us from copping photos from the 'net? One COULD just e-mail Dr. Esselstyn himself and ask for a good photograph that he could donate. MaynardClark (talk) 19:55, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we cannot get anything on the internet unless it's explicitly released under a free license unfortunately. The e-mail route would probably be better. Connormah (talk) 21:58, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No critiques?

All,

Pardon this newbie. If this is posted in the wrong place, please correct.

I have Dr. E's book next to me. My main question is, "Are there any critiques to Dr. E's book and/or theories?"

One of his main tenets is the previously widely-held belief that dietary cholesterol = blood cholesterol. This has been shown not to be true and was reflected in recent US Govt. guidelines.

Someone who is not being criticized these days must be doing something wrong ;o>

Just curious, 123.192.3.70 (talk) 01:11, 11 May 2015 (UTC) Richard M. 41783@live.com[reply]

Why don't you support YOUR critiques rather than pleading for someone else to do that work for you? Sources? MaynardClark (talk) 01:22, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Try citing some of his research instead some hack internet blogger like Harriet Hall. This article is a mess.

He never uses the term vegan because that's not the framework for the diet. And the snide comment about one of many diets Bill Clinton tried is a pretty transparent attempt to create negative political associations and imply it's a fad.

http://dresselstyn.com/JFP_06307_Article1.pdf

http://www.dresselstyn.com/Esselstyn_Three-case-reports_Exp-Clin-Cardiol-July-2014.pdf

173.22.57.231 (talk) 13:37, 9 November 2015 (UTC) Brian K[reply]

Harriet Hall's website doesn't exist any more, and the dead link that was cited makes the Harriet Hall comment unsupported. Therefore, that sentence should be removed. Would someone else please remove it? MaynardClark (talk) 15:05, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's not "her" web site, and the link (to Science-Based Medicine) is fine. And in any case generally a link being dead does not require the source is removed. Alexbrn (talk) 16:08, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Harriet Hall must be removed! I know it's an unusually high standard, but in general we can't accept blog opinions, even ones which would be considered reliable for other purposes; we need secondary sources (those which summarize and review previous sources), which have been published in respected peer-reviewed medical journals, ideally within the last 5 years. Also there was removal of well-sourced content on his "Dietary work" that is not someone's blog opinion.Timpicerilo (talk) 22:42, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed changes on Dr. Esselstyn page, suggested by Dr. Esselstyn

I hope I am using this page correctly. I submitted some corrections and additional information to this page of Dr. Esselstyn, as requested by Dr. Esselstyn himself. He's a longtime friend, I'm not his employee or anything. My changes were rejected because I noted I am his friend, and this apparently triggered an automatic rejection based on "conflict of interest." So I am putting the proposed changes on this Talk page so that they can be considered by whomever does that.

1) The page currently lists Dr. Esselstyn's "Residence" as "Shaker Heights, OH." This is incorrect. Dr. Esselstyn lives in Pepper Pike, OH. Here is an article from the Cleveland Plain Dealer listing him as as a resident of Pepper Pike: http://www.cleveland.com/medical/index.ssf/2008/06/exsurgeon_caldwell_esselstyn_e.html

2) The page currently lists under "Fields" the following: "Cardiology Plant-based diet." However, Dr. Esselstyn is not a cardiologist. He was a surgeon for many years, and is currently a "Preventive Medicine Consultant." See his Bio: http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/biography/

3) Under "Known for" it lists the name of one of the many films he has appeared in "Forks Over Knives." But Dr. Esselstyn is not "known for" being in that film, he is known for his "Clinical research reversing heart disease." He has published studies on this, it is the subject of his bestselling book, and it is what has been written most about him in the media. For example, watch this 1-hour documentary by Sanjay Gupta MD which aired multiple times on CNN, detailing Dr. Esselstyn's work in clinical research in reversing heart disease: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op9fow8JKW4 CNN did not do a 1-hour video about "Forks Over Knives" (it was not even mentioned in the documentary). They reviewed his research to that point and the impact it has had on lives of individuals who took part in that research. You can also look at a number of Dr. Esselstyn's published studies and articles on preventing and reversing heart disease at: http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/articles-studies/

4) Under "Alma mater" on Dr. Esselstyn's page it lists "Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine." This is not the name of the medical school Dr. Esselstyn attended. It should read "Western Reserve University." Please see his bio to confirm: http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/about/about-dr-esselstyn/

5) Under "Awards" the page currently states the following:

In 2005 Esselstyn received the Benjamin Spock Award for Compassion in Medicine (he was the award's first recipient), and in 2009 the Distinguished Alumnus Award from the Cleveland Clinic Alumni Association. In 2010 he received the Greater Cleveland Sports Hall of Fame Award.[13]

I would like to propose that the page be updated to include a few more of the many awards Dr. Esselstyn has received, such as the following:

"""

In 2005 Esselstyn was the first recipient of the Benjamin Spock Award for Compassion in Medicine. (14) In 2009 he received the Distinguished Alumnus Award from the Cleveland Clinic Alumni Association.(13) In 2010 he received the Greater Cleveland Sports Hall of Fame Award.[13] In 2013 he received the Deerfield Academy Alumni Association Award in recognition of outstanding achievement and service. (14) In 2013 he also received the Yale University George H. W. Busch ’48 Lifetime of Leadership Award (14)

6) The opening paragraph describing Dr. Esselstyn currently says:

Esselstyn is the author of Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease (2007), which argues for a low-fat, whole foods, plant-based diet.[2][3][n 1] He recommends avoiding all animal products, as well as reducing or avoiding soybeans, nuts, avocados and oils.[n 2] The diet has been advocated by former U.S. President Bill Clinton[7][8]

To be accurate, this description should say:

Esselstyn is the author of Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease (2007), which promotes a whole foods, plant-based diet that mimics the diet of cultures across the world who never have cardiovascular disease. 16 He recommends avoiding all animal and dairy products, as well as oil of any kind, and for those with heart disease ,no nuts or avocados.17

These are two new cites (in addition to those already on the page) as reference for the additional info:

16. Prev Cardiol.2001;4:171-177 http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/study03/ 17. Esselstyn, Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease 2007 Avery, NY page 69, 70

If you refer to the study (#16) you will see it lists the cultures around the world where cardiovascular disease is not present, with cites. If you reference those pages in his book (17) you will see his diet is not represented accurately in the current description, but that he recommends avoiding all animal and dairy products, as well as oil of any kind, and for those with heart disease, no nuts or avocados. So that is the accurate description of the diet Dr. Esselstyn recommends and has studied.

7) Currently the third paragraph of Dr. Esselstyn's page states:

Esselstyn's diets have been criticized for being promoted as having health benefits beyond what are supported by sound medical evidence.[8]

Further down that page under "Dietary Work" it currently states:

Dietary Work

Esselstyn has conducted research into diet and heart disease and – in common with his contemporaries Dean Ornish and T. Colin Campbell – has devised a dietary program which he claims can prevent heart disease. Commenting on the diet, Harriet A. Hall has written that the claims made for it are misleading and that the evidence on which it is based is "pretty skimpy".[8]

The cite (8) for these two statements is an opinion article from a retired Aeronautical Surgeon whose hobby appears to be "debunking bad science." The linked article uses broad statements supported only by links to other opinion pieces.

To refute these two comments above from the current page, and show they should not appear on the page, I offer the following:

Esselstyn’s original 1995 study (14), his 1999 12 year follow up (14) and his 2001 angiographic follow up (14), all indicate heart disease reversal in the study subjects and an absence of further cardiovascular events beyond 12 years.

Dr. Esselstyn has since published in July 2014 a review of 200 cardiovascular patients who have followed his whole food plant based nutrition for close to 4 years, and this review demonstrates that 99.4% (of the 89.3% participants who were adherent to the diet) had no major cardiac events. (14)

Dr. Esselstyn has also demonstrated in a second paper in July 2014 disease reversal of the coronary, carotid, and peripheral arteries following the dietary program. (14)

Dr. Esselstyn's research now confirms 8 ways of documenting disease reversal:

1. angiographic reversal (17 page 116-117 of his book) Also see http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/study03/ 2. stress test reversal http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/study03/ 3. pet scan reversal (17 page 116-117) http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/study03/ 4. carotid ultrasound reversal (14 Articles 2014) 5. pulse volume reversal (page 116-117) 6. angina elimination (14 Articles 2014) 7. claudication elimination (14 Articles 2014) 8. erectile dysfunction 14 (Articles 2014)

In terms of the claims from Dr. Esselstyn's work being "misleading" or the science being "skimpy" as the two sentences in question are concerned:

Richard Feynman, a Nobel Laureate in physics explains the scientific method -- In science we test a rigorous theory to see if it works. Feynman says: "If it disagrees with the experiment it is wrong. “ https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman

Esselstyn postulates that plant based nutrition can prevent, halt and reverse cardiovascular disease. Multiple studies from others and his own studies demonstrate and confirm it. Science has spoken. This is "sound medical advice" and not "skimpy" research. Respectfully, those two sentences asserting his research is thin or not up to snuff should be removed from the page.

Dr. Esselstyn's scientific publications number over 150, see: http://www.dresselstyn.com/publications.htm

The Best Doctors in America” 1994-1995 published by Woodward and White cites Dr. Esselstyn’s surgical expertise in the categories of endocrine and breast disease. In 1995 he published his bench mark long-term nutritional research arresting and reversing coronary artery disease in severely ill patients. That same study was updated at 12 years and reviewed beyond twenty years in his book, Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease, making it one of the longest longitudinal studies of its type. His most recent, 2014 follow up study of 200 patients reaffirmed the benefits of whole food plant based nutrition to arrest and reverse heart disease. - Mealsforhealth (talk) 02:50, 5 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Mealsforhealth - thanks very much for following the COI guideline and posting changes here instead of making them directly, yourself. This is exactly what we ask folks with a conflict of interest to do, and you did it so graciously. So thanks for that. It is pretty late here and I am going to bed, but will get back you. I'm going to leave a few notes on your Talk page to explain the "ground rules" of Wikipedia content, so that when I come back we can talk productively. Thanks again Jytdog (talk) 06:03, 5 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Mealsforhealth. I'd echo Jytdog's thanks above. It is always better to be up front with such things. I'll comment using your numbering above.

1) Shaker Heights borders on Pepper Pike. We could as easily say "near Cleveland". It would be more informative to more readers, without relying on an eight-year-old newspaper piece. His Whitepages listing shows him as in Cleveland, formerly in Pepper Pike.

2) Agreed, the "Fields" entry is wrong. I'll fix it.

3) I'd suggest that the "Known for" boils down to promotion of an oilless vegan diet, however that is formulated. If it wasn't for the Clinton part of the story, he'd be comparatively unknown. That said, it was quite divergent from the mainstream of his life's work. Until 1994 his publication titles don't even mention diet, heart, or cholesterol. Rather they were mostly about alternatives to surgical interventions, in keeping with his father-in-law, George Crile Jr.. The idea that he is known for the "clinical research reversing heart disease" implies both that it was principally his research, and that the research achieved disease reversal. We would not say either of those things in the voice of the encyclopedia unless they were beyond dispute. They clearly are not, as the dispute exists.

4) Western Reserve University is Case Western Reserve University, it's just a naming change.

5) Those awards are mentioned on his self-published sources, do we have something reliable and independent that talks about them? Without that it is difficult to establish which ones are worthy of note.

6) I think your revised wording incorporates some synthesis of sourced ideas, which we try to avoid here. The 2001 paper is freely available from the publisher at doi:10.1111/j.1520-037X.2001.00538.x and indexed at PMID 11832674. We don't need to, and shouldn't, use his website for this. WP does not treat sources that old as being current, though they sometimes are used when they hold historical value, as for milestone papers (Watson & Crick, e.g.). This one is usable for biographical purposes, but it does not meet WP:MEDRS, which is our guideline for selecting medical sources. Anything based on it would be put in Esselstyne's voice and past tense, so as to avoid misleading the reader into thinking the encyclopedia endorses it as current.

7) I've adjusted the wording, though perhaps not as far as you would wish. Hall, in case you didn't know, is just as harsh on sloppy research from the other side.

LeadSongDog come howl! 21:47, 5 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Main image

The main image of Dr Caldwell Esselstyn on this article is outdated and also very low quality. There are many better-quality and more recent images of him online. Could this be changed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.5.167.43 (talk) 18:33, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not done It is extremely blurry, however sadly I can't find a noncopyrighted(free) image. --@Boothsift 05:21, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Links to research / practitioner report articles in journals?

The section "Diet Work" focuses on celebrity diet and on criticism. I think it would be beneficial to include links to his original work in reputable journals.

The two articles I would suggest (reference 1 because it's viewed as one the landmark results in the plant-based diet community, and reference 2 because it's recent):

Reference 1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7500065 - A strategy to arrest and reverse coronary artery disease: a 5-year longitudinal study of a single physician's practice. (1995)

Reference 2: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25198208 - "A way t reverse CAD?" (2014)

Text: In 1995, Dr. Esselstyn published in the Journal of Family Practice that patients following his diet (plant-based, low fat / no oil) were able to reverse coronary artery disease (Reference 1). The study was small (n=22) but very promising. He published follow-up results from his practice over the years which were consistent, most recently (2014) of 195 patients with cardiovascular disease. (Reference 2) For the 177 adherent patients (following his diet), only a single stroke was recorded.

Thanks much for considering. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Humble42 (talk • contribs) 06:08, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

These are not reliable sources for such claims, per WP:MEDRS. Alexbrn (talk) 06:13, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]