Talk:Cajun music/Archives/2015

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Who has named mandolin and banjo as major instruments in this genre, instead of steel guitar? You must be thinking of only the 1930s.

From Atlas Fruge, to Rodney Miller, Phillip Alleman, Arcange "Coon Touchet," etc. the sound of the steel guitar in the music of the late 40s onward has been much more essential than the mandolin and banjo.

African influences?

I don't know much about Cajun music, but aren't there African influences in it? Or am I off on this one? Would it fall under WP:AFRO? futurebird 15:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

You are thinking of zydeco which has a predominantly African influence. However, some Spanish, German, Irish, African and Native American influences can be found in Cajun music. This is one of the major reasons why Cajun music is different from Acadian music from Nova Scotia.Falcanary 21:36, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Sub-genres

Npomea 13:03, 15 August 2007 (UTC)Npomea I made some changes to the Sub-Genres area, but I think it still needs some work. Perhaps someone could break out the aural information and expand upon it separately. My edits seem to have changed the focus to a discussion of periods within the development of Cajun music, which seems to be separate.

Discussing Cajun music by period is tricky. Some of the sub-genres exist side by side. For instance, Dancehall continues today alongside Folk Cajun and Zyde-Cajun! I am not sure the term Zyde-Cajun is accurate either. It applies to Wayne Toups and bands that have followed his lead, but groups like the Pine Leaf Boys, Beausoleil, and Steve Riley also use some Zydeco elements. I would prefer if the were called Contemporary Cajun Music and play up its use of rock and Zydeco for a younger audience of dancers. The godfathers were Zachary Richard and BeauSoleil, then Wayne Toups. Steve Riley marked a return to a more traditional dancehall sound, but evolving into something different with swamp pop and Zydeco elements, etc. Also, Folk Cajun is more popular in the Lafayette area as shown by the types of bands in the venues it offers, while Zyde-Cajun is more popular in the Lake Charles and more small town areas.

The Cajun String band entry has problems. It sort of mixes the string band era of the 1930s and 40s with later developments in the 50s and 60s such as Jimmy C. Newman and Doug Kershaw. Many people of a certain generation were first exposed to Cajun music through Doug Kershaw and look at Cajun music from that perspective. Perhaps the Cajun String band sub-genre of the 30s and 40s, which included Hackberry Ramblers, Leo Soileau, Happy Fats, Harry Choates, etc. could be separated out, and add an area called Cajun Country that would include Jimmy C. Newman, Doug Kershaw, Vin Bruce, and others. This could include country music with "Cajun" themes, such as the link to different versions of Jolie Blonde is suggesting. I don't think that link gives a true idea of Cajun music at all, just an Americanized one, but if it is to be kept, it could be kept separate in a Cajun-Country area.

Folk Cajun is a sort of fuzzy category too. If it is meant to correspond somehow with the appearance of Cajun musicians at folk festivals from the 1960s to the present, that's fine, but I am not sure the aural description is accurate. Especially the remarks about the fiddle. To my mind, I just distinguish it from Dancehall by its lack of steel guitar, but then again, Lost Bayou Ramblers are using lap steel! The major difference may be the audience. Folk Cajun appears to be the kind of music heard in Lafayette in several venues, mostly restaurant-dance halls, while Dance Hall is more like Walter Mouton at La Poussiere, Ed Gary at the Jennings VFW hall, and that sort of thing.

La Brise du Bayou, perhaps, could go with a category called New Trends Among Cajun Musicians. This would help make it clear that it is created by Cajun people, hence Cajun music, but more like contemporary rap music sung in Cajun French, NOT the fiddle and accordion thing. I think we need to maintain that Cajun music is sung in French. Bluegrass music played in Japan and sung in Japanese is still bluegrass music, but it is different with Cajun music, which is the music of an ethnic group. If it is sung in English, like Alligator Man or Louisiana Man, or Diggy Diggy Lo, we could have it in the Cajun Country area with Jimmy C. Newman, Moon Mullican, Doug Kershaw, etc.

We could add a genre called Cajun music beyond Louisiana and Texas, but really most of those bands play either the Folk Cajun or a hybrid of Cajun and Zydeco. -Npomea-

Where I agree and disagree. I agree that discussing Cajun music by period is a tricky issue because many subs exist side by side. This is the main reason i tried to stay away from placing too many dates which could confuse the researcher. Cajun subgeneres definately did not evolve from one sub to the next, yet however, they sorta "split off" or "branched off" from each other. I believe this is the appropriate route to take in discussing this topic.

I agree with your Zydecajun comment. Zydecajun isn't quite the word to describe the styles of Wayne Toups yet, locally, when you say this term, it refers to that type of music. I think there could be a better term and i think you've got it correctly with the term "Contemporary Cajun Music". This really fits the modern contemp style that Wayne has brought about. I'm all for that change. HOwever I disagree that BeauSoleil or Pine Leaf Boys fit in the same category as Wayne Toups. They are more folky/bluesy/jassy sounding than Wayne.

The one that gives me the most heartburn is the Folk Cajun sub. Mainly because there are SO many elements that these groups possess. For example, how do you classify bands like BeauSoleil when there aren't traditional and they aren't dancehall anymore...however, they will throw in folk and bluegrass elements, some jazz/blues elements, even some Irish chord progression all in the SAME SONG! It really makes it hard to fit these guys somewhere. I used this notion Folk Cajun to classify those that aren't quite dancehall Cajun, yet not quite anything else. Maybe someone else can redefine this. Keep in mind however, you can't judge a band on one particular instrument used in one particular song. Most people would understand that Lost Bayou Ramblers are using lap steel once in a while yet it doesn't make them Dancehall Cajun. It's important to look at the over sound of the band throughout in order to categorize them in a particular sub. Nikl Beer plays some "Cajun" tunes yet they're not even a Cajun band to begin with. It's all about overall sound. Some things to keep in mind.

I disagree with the Cajun Country title. I don't even believe that this should be mentioned in this article. I'd also be hard pressed to find someone in Acadiana to call Doug Kershaw's music "Cajun" in any respect. HOwever, i understand a few of his country songs have Cajun elements. I believe he should be relegated to the Country Music article instead. It would be different if he was a Cajun musician that had country elements. However, it's the other way around. Therefore, people singing Cajun French songs, with a Cajun band, yet they include heavy Texas swing influence (Harry Choates) .... there should exist the category of Cajun Texas swing... of some sort for that. I don't think the title "Cajun String Band" captures that.

However, i agree with most of your additions and I think others will too. It is tricky to sub divide this stuff since many groups fall in several categories depeding in where they're playing, who's playing with them at the time, and what instruments are present. Keep up the good work. Falcanary {} Falkonry 03:28, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe a word like Modern Traditionalists? Balfa Brothers, Ray Abshire, Robert Jardell, Jason Frey, Cory McCauley, Jesse Lege, Pine Leaf Boys, Lost Bayou Ramblers, Jambalaya, La Bande Feufollet, Lee Benoit, etc. At times Steve Riley and Charivari would fit here. And maybe a word like Contemporary Cajun Music to mean a wide variety of musicians using a wide variety of other genres, including Zachary Richard (rock and folk), BeauSoleil (rock, zydeco, jazz, and folk -- even old French music), Wayne Toups (southern rock, soul), Steve Riley (zydeco and swamp pop), Travis Matte (contemporary dance music I don't know enough about his thing to say), Jamie Bergeron, Kevin Naquin, Richard LeBouef? The musicians I listed as Modern Traditionalist seem to view themselves as sticking closer to the roots, while the ones I listed as Contemporary Cajun seem to want to draw in fans by mixing it up with other genres to make a new style. It's hard to say!Npomea 17:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)Npomea

Modern Traditionalists

This has been listed under Contemporary Cajun. I disagree with this mainly due to the fact some might contend the likes Balfa Toujours, Ray Abshire, the Freres Michot, the Lost Bayou Ramblers, the Pine Leaf Boys are the same sound as Wayne Toups and Damon Troy. There is a definate difference and i think listing these groups (Balfa Toujours, Ray Abshire, the Freres Michot, the Lost Bayou Ramblers, the Pine Leaf Boys) under Contemporary Cajun confuses the reader into thinking all the musicians listed in this section sound the same. In my opinion, they are definately not Contemporary Cajun but more close to the Cajun Renaissance subgenre listed. This list of people should be moved there instead. If not, then definately the two groups, Lost Bayou Ramblers and the Pine Leaf Boys need to be moved out of Contemporary Cajun. These two groups resemble that "Folk Cajun" style of sound that was listed earlier. Falkonry 05:07, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I moved "modern traditionalists" back to the Renaissance area. I would not like to call that area Folk because readers might think it is acoustic, mellow music, while some of these musicians definitely are not. Renaissance may be the better term since it is also used for a concurrent cultural movement of increased pride in Cajun heritage and tradition.

I don't have much to add about "contemporary" Cajun music, other than my remarks that it somewhat departs from more traditional sounds. The area could use some expansion. Do you want to add Jamie Bergeron, Richard LeBouef, Travis Matte, Brise du Bayou (hip hop sung in Cajun French)? I think "Contemporary" is still more accurate than Zyde-Cajun, but I worry about the readers who think that if something is not listed as contemporary, it is therefore obsolete. That is not the impression I would want readers to have of Lost Bayou Ramblers or Pine Leaf Boys or Charivari, etc.

Also, it seems like we are mixing two distinct approaches: one emphasizes sound qualities and musical techniques, while another emphasizes who were the noted musicians playing that style. I think some of the remarks about the style of playing could be qualified a little bit. Strong rhythm and double stops, for instance, were also used by Dewey Balfa and continue to be used by Mitch Reed, Louie Michot, and others, though they do sound very different from Dennis McGee in the 20s and 30s. The remarks are helpful though and I support them being expanded.Npomea 15:31, 23 August 2007 (UTC)Npomea

Actually, you brought up a good point for discussion. I noticed in these sections more and more musicians are listed, creating very long subgenere descriptions. What will happen as more readers (and editors) see this article, they will feel some are left out and begin to add more to these growing lists. While mentioning notable people in each genre is important, i'm afraid others will want to keep adding people and it's impossible to name every artist in every subgenre, especially when some artist's sounds cross over many. This "listing of people" could get out of hand quickly. I'm not sure how to approach this. A suggestion might be is to have each section described with a list of people under like so:

Subgenre description...............

• Person
• Person
• etc.

Another suggestion would be to have a link to a page with the list of people fitting each category. Or even possible to break up each subgenre into it's own page (Yikes!). I'm afraid there isn't enough valuable or encyclopedic type material to have a page for each subgenre so that may be out of the question. However, i do believe something needs to be done or the sections will be 90% people lists. Maybe there's another way. For now, i will separate the sections into 2 parts, one for description, one for people listing.

As far as sections so far, i agree and think most will tend to agree with the changes shown. I don't have much more to describe on the Contemporary Cajun section and will have to put some research into that. For now, it pretty much gets to the point. I agree the sections do need to be expanded, each on their musical traits. Falkonry 03:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Why not link to List of Cajun Musicians? See <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cajun_musicians> The current list would be more helpful if artists and bands were grouped by genre. I will see if I can do that. If not, could you establish headings for the sub-genres?Npomea 12:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)Npomea

La Brise du Bayou!

If Wayne Toups and Steve Riley and the Mamou Playboys can link to their personal sites and claim them as references then I see no reason why I can't link to La Brise du Bayou!'s personal site and also claim it as a reference. I was just following the example put forth in this article. RoyAlcatraz 14:20, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Please dont take this as a personal attack, but rather an attempt to clean up the article. The material you've placed on the article has 2 particular issues, both listed on your talk page. Keep in mind, Wikipedia is not a place for self promotion or promotion of others work. The statement about La Brise du Bayou on the Cajun music page may be accurate but does not cohere to the rules for notability and is referenced by a clear self-published source (aka MySpace personal page). There isn't anything wrong with referencing a personal website and the issue isn't such. The problem lies in that there isn't any other reliable and authoritative reference to this person's notability in addition to the personal page. Just placing a link to the person's personal webpage isn't enough. If you have questions on this, please read the rules for Wikipedia:Attribution#Using_questionable_or_self-published_sources and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not which details what can and can't be done. Also, the guidelines listed at Wikipedia:Notability (music) detail what is needed in order for an artist to be considered notable.

As far as Wayne Toups and Steve Riley is concerned, they both reference multiple credible and authoritative sources besides their personal page. Also, Wayne Toups and Steve Riley both statisfy several of the criteria at Wikipedia:Notability_(music)#Criteria_for_musicians_and_ensembles. If you feel La Brise du Bayou satisfies these issues, then do say so by creating an article for this person and inserting references which meet the criteria being discussed. I hope this helps. As I get time, I will check others Cajun music biographies for the same types of issues. Falkonry 16:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll take a look at those links. As for "notability," shouldn't the fact that La Brise du Bayou! is the first Cajun French Hip-Hop artist be notable enough? Simply because people have neglected to write about La Brise du Bayou! doesn't make the music any less notable, in my opinion. I'll see what Wikipedia wrote about this subject. Thanks. RoyAlcatraz 00:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

History of Cajun music

OK, i'm having second thoughts about this article. I keep reading it and have realized that there are 2 major discussions embedded in this article. 1) on Cajun music and it's musical form and 2) on the history of Cajun music. What has been done is place an effort on combining the two which isn't the most efficient or effective article. We could do a better job by separating this article into 2 pieces. Therefore, detailed attention could be attributed to both topics separately, making both articles better than they were before. I propose creating a History of Cajun Music artile, focused on a timeline structure, from the early years to today. The current article Cajun music would be devoted to cajun styles of play and music composition. If you have ideas on this, please contribute them here. I will be moving any material suited for the History of Cajun Music article away from this article. Falkonry 18:58, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

The beginnings of a unique Cajun/Creole accordion style

Is there a reference for stating that the use of the accordion goes back to the Roberts Cove community? I don't see how that can be stated in such a matter of fact manner without a reference. I raised this question in the discussion space for History of Cajun Music. Here is that note:

"I would like to edit the statement that German settlers in the Roberts Cove area introduced affordable accordions. See the following quotations from Comeaux, Malcolm. (1999). Introduction and use of accordions in Cajun music. Louisiana Folklore Miscellany, 27-40.

'It will probably never be known when the first accordion came to Louisiana, or when the first Cajun acquired or played one, nor does it really matter. What is important is that they did come to Louisiana and were accepted by musicians in southwest Louisiana.

I believe that German-Jewish merchants were important in the sale of accordions. There were Jewish merchants with stores in all Cajun towns, and probably the best example was the Mervine Kahn store in Rayne, established in 1884, only four years after the railroad arrived. Many Cajuns bought their accordions from Mervine Kahn prior to World War II. How the first accordions arrived at these stores is unknown.

We will never know the name of the first person to bring an accordion into south Louisiana. Since the accordion evolved in German-speaking lands, it is usually assumed that it was a person from this region who first brought an accordion to south Louisiana. Germans were constantly filtering into New Orleans and from there into southwest Louisiana. The only organized settlement of Germans in southwest Louisian, in Roberts Cove, did not occur until 1881, well after the accordion was in Louisiana. Also, German Americans from this community were never noted for playing accordion, so they played no role in acceptance of the accordion.'

End quote. By the time the Breaux Brothers of Roberts Cove were playing accordion in the 1910s, 20s and later, the accordion had already become very popular.

For musical influences I believe we need to emphasize the African American contribution much more strongly.

"It will probably never be known when the first Cajun began to play the accordion or who this person was, but it seems that the first individual to bring the accordion to south Louisiana did not teach the Cajuns or black Creoles to play it. People on the prairie of southwest Louisiana developed a style of playing that was not smooth and easy, as was done in Europe, but rather they began playing with fast choppy rhythms in a syncopated style that had many fast runs. It evolved into a style not found anywhere else in the world, and based on the style, probably first developed by black Creoles and then taught to Cajuns. (emphasis mine). The first Creoles to develop accordion skills were probably descendants of small independent black farmers who lived on the prairie west of Opelousas. This is the only large settlement of small independent black farmers on the prairie, and it is the area where many of the early black accordionists originated, and where many, especially those using the old diatonic accordion, are now found." Npomea 23:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)NPomea