Talk:Burundi/Archive 1

Bias

Can somebody who knows something about Burundian history get rid of the bias in this article? There are numerous mentions Tutsis killing Hutus and Hutu oppresion which sound dangerously close to some of the same propaganda that the Hutu government of Rwanda put out before the genocide. Compare the wikipedia article to the article found at the state dept. website:

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2821.htm

For example, the origins of Burundi in the wikipedia article:

"The earliest inhabitants of the area were the pygmoid Twa. Followed by the Hutu who then co-habited in harmony for numerous years. The Tutsi were the last inhabitants of Burundi, yet they took over by a military regime and forced their monarchy unto the Hutus and Twas. The Tutsi set up a social pyramid where the Hutus and Twas were consistently oppressed."

State department:

"In the 16th century, Burundi was a kingdom characterized by a hierarchical political authority and tributary economic exchange. A king (mwani) headed a princely aristocracy (ganwa) that owned most of the land and required a tribute, or tax, from local farmers and herders. In the mid-18th century, this Tutsi royalty consolidated authority over land, production, and distribution with the development of the ubugabire--a patron-client relationship in which the populace received royal protection in exchange for tribute and land tenure. "

The History of Burundi page:

"Origins of Burundi are known from a mix of oral history and archaeology. There are two main founding legends for Burundi. The one most promoted today tells a tale of a Rwandan named Cambarantama founding the nation. The other version, more common in pre-colonial Burundi, says that Cambarantama came from the southern state of Buha. The notion of Rwandan origins for the kingdom was promoted by the European colonizers for it fit their ideals of a ruling class coming to the area from the Hamitic northeast. The theory has continued to be the semi-official dogma of the modern Burundian state. Historians doubt the Hamitic origins of the Tutsis, but it is still believed that their ancestors migrated from the north to what is now Burundi in the 15th century. The first evidence of the Burundian state is from 16th century where it emerged on the eastern foothills. Over the next centuries it expanded, annexing smaller neighbours and competing with Rwanda. Its greatest growth occurred under Ntare Rugamba, who ruled the nation from about 1796 to 1850 and saw the kingdom double in size." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.12.152.3 (talk) 07:30, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

At least some of the text in Burundi comes from this web page: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/bgn/index.cfm?docid=2821 (Burundi/Transnational issues) Is it confirmed that the original is public domain? Even if it is, maybe the source should be mentioned?

---

The Burundi text does come from that page and from a page of the CIA World Factbook; both of them are indeed in the public domain. My opinion of the matter is that the information was compiled on tax dollars, which means it's a work for hire for the United States public; I don't see acknowledgement of the source as especially pressing. But that is just my opinion and I have been known to have radical opinions. With I think two exceptions, all of the Countries of the world are from these two sources. --Koyaanis Qatsi

---

It doesn't hurt to acknowledge the source; it would give the text more credibility, and would give the reader an opportunity to find more information.

Republic of Burundi VS. Republika y'u Burundi

Why do we not use English in the intro? Isn't having the native forms on infobox enough? --Menchi 04:57, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Not sure why; I just followed the example of other countries' leads, but I have been far from consistent on that front (as the various leads are not, for that matter). I posted a comment on the Forum for Encyclopedic Standards wrt the standardization of country leads. I invite you to comment there on the items I brought up — or raise new ones. El_C 05:38, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Landlocked

How many times is the word landlocked going to be in the opening paragraph before someone figured out another place to highlight the fact that they are landlocked.

Vandalism

What's with the recent little vandalism edits? -- Christian Edward Gruber 01:34, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Religion

http://www.anglicancommunion.org/tour/province.cfm?ID=B2 claims at least 650,000 members, which does not correspond to the figures stated in the Demographics section. Oneeye 12:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposed WikiProject

In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Eastern Africa at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Eastern Africa whose scope would include Burundi. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Former name

I've removed the sentences "The former name was Urundi-Ubrundi-Bruwanda. Urundi is the shortened form of "Urundi Rwanda" ("The other Rwanda"), as the Belgian colonial powers formerly referred to the territory." I can see no evidence or citation for this statement. The former name of this territory, including present-day Rwanda and Burundi, was Ruanda-Urundi, as the "History" section of this article makes clear. Kahuzi 21:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Poorly written

It seems to me that much of this whole article is poorly written and needs to be reworded. I do not mean to offend the author and am glad he worked on it, but many of the body paragraphs are grammatically incorrect or extremely simplistic, (i.e. it sounds like a second-grader wrote it). Please change the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.47.150.161 (talk) 01:57, 9 March 2007 (UTC).

I agree. The article is very poorly written.

I've edited some of the little items that stuck out to me, but after reading it, I believe it has great quality now. I suppose after a year of work it would become better. --Bookinvestor (talk) 17:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

1972 Genocide

The information on this page about the 1972 killings differs dramatically from the "Burundi Genocide" page. I suspect that the latter is closer to the truth, with less of a polemical tone. Shouldn't the two be brought in accordance with one another? Rosecrans 02:20, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Rosecrans is definitely onto something here. Most sources I've seen estimate the 1972 death toll as between 200,000 and 300,000. And while it does seem likely that the majority of Burundi's genocide victims have been Hutu (if for no other reason than that the majority of the population is Hutu while Tutsis dominated Burundi's elite for most of the post-colonial era), the idea that only a "few" Tutsis have been victims of genocide is tantamount to negationism. A 1996 UN report, for example, found that the massacres of Tutsi civilians orchestrated by Hutu politicians in the aftermath of the 1993 assassination by Tutsi soldiers of President Ndadaye constituted "acts of genocide". - http://www.usip.org/library/tc/doc/reports/burundi_coi/burundi_coi1996pt5.html#II Rcameronw 13:54, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Well

Today they just murdered a Russian diplomat.

-G

Reaction: What do you want to mean with "today they just murdered a russian diplomat?" I assume there is an presumption behind your statement which I suspect very negative about Burundi and Burundians, and I would like you to clarify that story with the whole background if you can and the development from the investigation commission.

-Leo N.

Uganda, Burundi's neighbor !?

I decided to delete this article because of it's total inaccuracy:

"Bilateral relations with neighboring Uganda have recently become strained after the discovery of oil on Lake Kyoga, near the town of Kenyi, Uganda. The Lord's Resistance Army, the rebel group responsible for a brutal reign of terror in Uganda and Burundi's border region has begun to rearm around the borders. International observers wonder how long the tenuous cease fire will last. "

I'm surprised to learn that Burundi and Uganda are neighbours I didn't know that untill I saw that in this stupid article. Excuse me for calling it stupid but I think it is stupid to right about a country without consulting a map. In fact, Burundi has no frontier with Uganda whatsoever, and the Lord Resistance Army (LRA) has never been operating in Burundi. Also there's no tentions between the two countries about natural gas in Lake Kivu, because Burundi will need first to have a single inch of access to that lake which is something like 20miles away from it's nothernmost border.

- Leo N, an offended citizen

ps. Though I'ld like to thank everybody collaborating and contributing to Wiki projects, and the author of the article too for the efforts they constantly are making for providing information.

Very Poorly Written

The section "Genocide and mass killings" is very poorly written and is not referenced either.

86.140.159.159 01:27, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup required

History Section needs editing in line with the separate History of Burundi and Burundi Civil War articles, with detail moved there and a summary to remain here. The section on genocide and mass kilings needs a rewrite, breaking into paras with subheads, and to be integrated with and subheaded under other material, either History or Civil War as background/precursor material. Rexparry sydney 05:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Burundi/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

I cannot yet recommend Burundi for GA status for the following reasons:

General

• The article moves between British and American spellings. Please make the spelling of English words consistent with either American or British spelling, depending upon the subject of the article, such as: neighbor (A) (British: neighbour); favorite (A) (British: favourite); meter (A) (British: metre); pretense (A) (British: pretence); ization (A) (British: isation); analyze (A) (British: analyse).

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

 Not done There are still instances where the UK spellings are used (like neighbour) when US spellings are used (like program), and I'm pretty sure that "World Food Programme" uses the UK spelling no matter what -epicAdam (talk) 02:05, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I used British English throughout the whole article. bsrboy (talk) 12:06, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Could we stick to U.S. English? I significantly researched rewrote this article in American English. I nominated this for GA. I knew this was going to be placed on hold, and I would make the changes. However, bsrboy your changes are doing more harm than good with this article, and I would kindly ask you to stop doing so, because that would mean I would have more work to do. Thanks. miranda 12:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I promise I won't edit, unless it's vandalism. bsrboy (talk) 13:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

 Done miranda 14:27, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• Make sure to provide data in U.S. standard converted into metric (or vice-versa). Your choice. Currently, the article is mixed.

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• It's highly recommended that citations appear after punctuation.

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

 Done double-checked. miranda 14:27, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Images

• Copyright: The coat of arms of Burundi does not appear to have a valid copyright. The supposed "author" of the work cannot legally release it into the public domain. Further, a previous version of the file had been deleted from Wikimedia Commons due to copyright violation. You may want to re-upload the file for use only on Wikimedia and provide a fair-use rationale.

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

 Not done I am actually working on that with the people on Wikimedia Commons right now. miranda 00:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I am e-mailing the embassy where the logo is taken from, and I will forward that to OTRS. Also, I have begun a discussion here. miranda 02:30, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Lead

• Vague: "country's formation many centuries ago."

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Vague: "was occupied by Europeans" all Europeans? Say which countries

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Redundant: "Economically,"

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Redundant: "political civil wars"

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Non sequitur: "Predominately a Christian nation, Burundi's residents enjoy football as a favorite sport." How does playing football have anything to do with Christianity? Wikilink football so that it is not confused with American football.

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

History

• Vague: "and provided the country's first language." Surely the land was occupied sometime between 70,000BC and 3,000BC, and that those people had some variation of language?

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• MoS: "sixteenth century." -> "16th century" (without wikilink)

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• MoS: "seventeenth century" -> "17th century" (without wikilink)

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• MoS: "nineteenth century" -> "19th century" (without wikilink)

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Vague: "The disputes eventually lead to European takeover, and in 1899, the kingdom of Burundi became a German colony."
  • How did the disputes lead to a takeover?

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• • Shouldn't this be in the next section about European takeover?

Used this as a transition for the next section. There were some grammar errors as well, and I have fixed those as well. miranda 18:55, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Oops, those grammar errors were mine. bsrboy (talk) 18:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Vague: "European influences caused major cultural differences within Burundi's formation." Wasn't Burundi already formed? What cultural differences? Source(s)?

 Done Influences from European countries transitioned Burundi into the twentieth century miranda 19:45, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: "Vicouriat of Kivu"

 Done clarified. miranda 19:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: "Later, Germany gave Burundi to Belgium in World War I in 1916." How/why did that happen? I know why, but other people may not.

 Done I explained. miranda 19:32, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: "Chiefdoms were in charge of land (pays)" What are pays?

 Done Deleted pays. They were in my notes and in the author's words. I was going to look it up, but alas did not have the time. miranda 19:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Source: "Allowing factions to occur in Burundi would be one of the main influences for Burundi's independence from Europe."

This is a transition sentence to the next paragraph. It's foreshadowing. miranda 02:19, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• Redundant: "The 1950s and 1960s provided to be crucial decades to Burundi's independent development."

 Done The fifties and sixties were crucial decades for Burundi's independence. - I used. miranda 02:19, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: "Mwami Mwabusta" who??

 Done spelling error. This has been fixed. miranda 18:54, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: "Six months later, parties begin forming." How does separating the country lead to parties forming?

Parties forming helps to begin the move for independence. miranda 15:36, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: UNARU - don't leave abbreviations

 Done African National Union of Ruanda-Urundi miranda 15:51, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: "During Burundi's fight for independence, unstableness in the Burundi-Rwanda region grew." What? The fight for independence hasn't even been mentioned yet in the article!

 Done clarified During Burundi's push towards being an independent nation, unstableness in the Burundi-Rwanda region grew between the Hutu and Tutsi tribes. miranda 15:49, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: "In November 1959, a revolt occurred in Rwanda with Hutu teachers." What kind of revolt? Over what?

This is an example of the ethnic clashes b/n Hutus and Tutsis over occupation. During Burundi's fight for independence, unstableness in the Burundi-Rwanda region grew. As a result, ethnic persecution occurred between Hutus and Tutsis. For example, in November 1959, a revolt erupted in Rwanda between Hutu teachers and Tutsi soldiers over land possession. miranda 15:36, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• Revise: "The Union for National Progress (UPRONA), a multi-ethnic party led by Tutsi Prince Louis Rwagasore and the Christian Democratic Party (PDC) was formed. Following an UPRONA victory in legislative elections, Prince Rwagasore was assassinated in 1961.[8] Ruanda-Urundi was changed to Burundi in 1962.[13] The country claimed independence in the same year on July 1.[8] King Mwambutsa IV was named the first ruler.[12]"

 Done The Union for National Progress (UPRONA), a multi-ethnic party led by Tutsi Prince Louis Rwagasore and Christian Democratic Party (PDC) members, became popular throughout Burundi. Following an UPRONA victory in legislative elections, Prince Rwagasore was assassinated in 1961 by a Greek national named Georges Kageorgis. The country claimed independence in July 1, 1962, thus legally changing names from Ruanda-Urundi to Burundi. miranda 15:27, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• • Prose here is just awful. Tighten up to improve flow.

Tried to improve this. miranda 05:02, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

• • Why isn't this in the information about the civil war and independence?

 Done I moved the paragraph about independence in the European conquest section. miranda 15:27, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: "During Mwambutsta's reign, ethnic violence occurred throughout the region, and the Hutus escaped to Rwanda to avoid persecution." Who and when?

 Done miranda 06:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: "This revolution by the Hutus lasted from 1959 to 1962." What revolution? It hasn't even been mentioned before!

 Done During Mwambutsa's reign, ethnic violence occurred throughout the region, and from 1959 to 1962 the Hutus escaped to Rwanda to avoid persecution. miranda 06:17, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

• Revise: "In Rwanda, the Hutus murdered thousands of Tutsis, causing them to flee to Burundi While in Burundi, retaliation occurred. Many Tutsi soldiers killed Hutu peasants."

 Done In Rwanda, the Hutus murdered thousands of Tutsis, causing the Tutsis to flee to Burundi for freedom. While in Burundi, Tutsis fought against the Hutus. Many Tutsi soldiers killed Hutu peasants in retaliation for Hutu violence in Rwanda. miranda 15:27, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• Revise: "As a result, an estimated quarter of a million people perished for almost thirty years." "for" -> "over"?

 Done As a result, an estimated 250,000 people perished for over thirty years. miranda

• Revise: "The transitional government was placed on trial for five years, until 2005" You mean, in court? Or or a trial basis?

 Done The transitional government was placed on a trial basis for five years, until 2005. miranda 06:17, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: "PALIPEHUTU-National Liberation Forces" Who are these guys? They're not mentioned before.

 Done As of 2008, the Burundian government is talking with the Hutu-led Palipehutu-National Liberation Forces (NLF). miranda 06:17, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

• Overall: So is Burundi at peace or not? The information seems vague as there are elections and unity government yet the article also says that there are ethnic tensions and what looks to be an ongoing civil conflict.

 Done They are continuing. I put To this day, conflicts between the Hutus and the Tutsis continue. miranda 06:17, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Politics

• Redundant: "Over time, Burundi's political system has changed from a monarchy to a presidential representative democratic republic."

 Done Burundi's political system is a transitional presidential representative democratic republic and based upon a multi-party state. Burundi president is the head of state and head of government. Burundi currently has twenty-one registered parties. miranda 02:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: "In 1992, Tutsi coup leader Pierre Buyoya established a system, where more parties could be involved with the political process instead of a single party." How so? Did he establish the 1992 constitution?

 Done In 1992, Tutsi coup leader Pierre Buyoya established a constitution,[30] which provided for a multi-party political process.[31] miranda 16:57, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: "Six years later on June 6, 1998, the constitution was ratified to include ramifications" What ramifications? Ramifications means "effects"... not sure it's the right word here.

 Done "changed" miranda 04:45, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

• Revise: Don't use "first", "second", "third" (not necessary)

 Done deleted. miranda 19:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: "transitional Senate serves an unlimited amount of years." What??? So Senators serve for life?

 Done explained. miranda 04:45, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: Is the President popularly elected?

 Done explained. miranda

• Explain: "are located in three different sites."

 Done Three Courts of Appeals exist in Burundi and are directly below the Supreme Court. miranda 02:07, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

• Disambig: "2,638 collines (hills)" I don't think the wikilink for "hills" is meant to link to the geographic feature, is it? If so, it doesn't need to be wikilinked.

 Done deleted wikilink. miranda 15:27, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment: The region's political system is unstable. Currently doing research for more facts to explain the region's politics, as they are quite complicated. miranda 19:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Geography

• MoS: Makes sure there are non-breaking spaces here: "(8809 ft/2685 m)"

 Done bsrboy (talk) 19:30, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Source: "Called "the heart of Africa"," Who?

"Located in the center of Africa" miranda 12:53, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• Convert: "230 square miles" also add non-breaking spaces

 Done bsrboy (talk) 19:30, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Economy

• Explain: What is the country's GDP?

 Done bsrboy (talk) 19:20, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Revise: "arguably makes the Burundi the poorest country on the planet." It's not arguable. Burundi either is the poorest country on the planet, or it isn't.

 Done Due to economic conditions in the country, landlocked geography, and lack of resources, makes the Burundi one of the poorest countries on the planet. miranda 20:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Revise and source: "Coffee is the nation's biggest revenue earner with 78% of all exported goods."

That's in the Eggers's citation. miranda 20:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

 Done Coffee is the nation's biggest revenue earner, making up 78% of Burundi's exports. miranda 20:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Source: "(of which Burundi is one of the world's ten largest producers)"

 Done deleted miranda 14:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• Convert: "Burundi's currency is the franc (BIF).[1]" Helpful to know how much it's worth.

 Done bsrboy (talk) 19:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Demographics

• Explain: "However, The Anglican Church of Burundi[44] claims over 10% of the population as members and recent reports indicate the Christian population may be as high as 90% with most of the remainder being Muslim."
  • This information contradicts what was said in the previous sentence. Why providing both figures? Why the discrepancy?

 Done The Anglican Church of Burundi claims over 10% of the population as members. This was a run on sentence, and has been fixed. miranda 19:49, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Culture

• Move: "Most Burundians live in rural areas, since six percent of the population live in urban areas." This belongs in demographics.

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Revise: "When several Burundians of close acquaintance meet for a gathering, impeke is a beer that is drank from a large container — each person receives a straw."

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Redundant: "Music and dance have influences in Burundi's culture."

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Revise: "high paced" -> "fast-paced"

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Revise: "For learning, Burundians rely on oral traditions."

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: "Many types of literary genre exist, such as imigani, indirimbo, amazina, and ivyivugo."

Ties into the literary/oral tradition. Fixed with Imigani, indirimbo, amazina, and ivyivugo are types of literary genres existing in Burundi. miranda 20:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Redundant: "As far as religion,"

 Done bsrboy (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I will put this article on hold in hopes of getting it up to GA standards; however, to be perfectly honest, the prose in this article, especially the history section, is currently sub-standard. Topics are introduced with little to no explanation. People, events, political parties, etc. seem just "stuck into" the text, without a previous mention. Further, there are some standard WP:MoS issues that need to be corrected. -epicAdam (talk) 21:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I've done some of the things suggested. If anyone else wants to clean this up, I got down to the fifth bullet point on history. Thanks for the review. bsrboy (talk) 23:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Bsrboy, I am actually cleaning this up as well, since I nominated the article for GA. But thanks for your help. miranda 00:33, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, please take it in good faith. I'll leave you to it. bsrboy (talk) 00:42, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Second review

Lead:

• "The country's modern name is derived from the Bantu language, Kirundi."
  • Does the name mean anything?

 Not done Chad, a featured article does not elaborate Chad's meaning. Just that the name comes from a lake. miranda 22:48, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• • How long ago did people start calling it Burundi?

 Not done Redundant and not required. miranda 22:48, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• "Burundi was ruled as a kingdom by the Tutsis for over two hundred years."
  • From when to when? Dates are important.

 Not done The lead basically sums up the article. It is redundant to give dates if a separate article is provided, and the information will be explained below. miranda 08:39, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

• "which caused Burundi and Rwanda to be a European commonwealth known as Ruanda-Urundi."
  • Again, from when to when?

 Not done Redundant, see reasoning above. miranda 08:39, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

• "Burundi is known as one of the ten poorest countries in the world."
  • How so? How is this calculated?

 Done linked to relevant article. miranda 01:20, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• "Most Burundians are Roman Catholic"
  • Percentage?

 Done Sixty-two percent of Burundians. miranda 01:20, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

History:

• "Up until the 17th century, the kingdom of Burundi expanded."
  • Expanded how??

 Done expanded in land size. miranda 01:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• "For two hundred years, the Tutsi dynasty reigned."
  • Again, from when to when?
• "The kingdom continued through lineages, until the late 19th century."
  • What?

 Done continued through dynasties. miranda 16:39, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• "During King Mwezi IV's reign,"
  • When?

 Done miranda 03:57, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• "he allied with the Germans to control his opponents[9] (Maconco and Birori) rebellions,"
  • What? This doesn't make any sense. Try to place the references after punctuation.

 Not done Two separate sources. Also opponents' with an apostrophe is possessive. miranda 03:57, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• "Vicouriat of Kivu"
  • I still have no idea what that is. As far as I can tell "Vicouriat" isn't even a word.

 Done fixed

• What in the world is "Belgian League of Nations"?

 Done linked. miranda 01:30, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I think this is the wrong use for "League of Nations". The League of Nations did not belong to any one country. The term "Belgian League of Nations" makes it sounds like an organization similar to the British Commonwealth of Nations or the Francophonie. -epicAdam (talk) 16:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• "Following World War II, Ruanda-Urundi was a United Nations Trust Territory under Belgian administrative authority."
  • How was this different from its status after WWI?

 Not done I think readers can decipher that the Burundi changed possessions from Germany to Belgium. miranda 03:57, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• "On October 4, 1943, powers were split in the legislative division of Burundi's government. Chiefdoms were in charge of land, and lower sub-chiefdoms were established. Native authorities also had powers."
  • Explain how these created divisions. Were the Hutu in control of some chiefdoms and Tutsi in control of others?

 Done On October 4, 1943, powers were split in the legislative division of Burundi's government between chiefdoms and lower chiefdoms. miranda 22:28, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

• "Burundi's ruler Mwami Mwambutsa IV"
  • Wait wait. I thought the country was under the control of the Belgians? If so, then who's this guy?

 DoneHowever, the Belgians allowed Ruanda-Urundi to continue the kingship dynasty. miranda 09:01, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

• "Following an UPRONA victory in legislative elections, Prince Rwagasore was assassinated in 1961 by a Greek national named Georges Kageorgis."
  • What happened after this? Why a Greek guy? It seems like the country would have been thrown into turmoil.

 Done I deleted this because hardly any sources link to this to this fact. miranda 01:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Very Imortant: Incorporate the second paragraph under "Independence and civil war" into the first paragraph so the information flows chronologically. Currently, the prose jumps around and is still very confusing to readers.

 Done miranda 01:20, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you are confusing good article requirements with featured article requirements. miranda 01:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so. Having clear prose is definitely a requirement for GA. The main differences between GAN and FAC are the quality of prose, the threshold for adequate sources, and the comprehensiveness of the information. Having said that, however, if information is presented, it should be explained clearly. I don't think providing a chronologically-ordered history section is too much to ask from a GA article. -epicAdam (talk) 16:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Politics

• "Representation in the Transitional National Assembly is 60% Hutu, 40% Tutsi, 30% female, and 3 Batwa members."
  • Is this mandated by the constitution or just the way the voting fell into place?

Mandated by the constitution.  Done Changed: Fifty-two seats are controlled by other parties. Burundi's constitution mandates representation in the Transitional National Assembly to be consistent with 60% Hutu, 40% Tutsi, and 30% female members, as well as three Batwa members. miranda 21:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

• "Members of the National Assembly are elected by popular vote."
  • Are they elected from single-member districts like in the U.S. or is it a parliamentary system?

 Done miranda 04:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

• "Burundi's president appoints members to his Council of Ministers"
  • What members? Members of the Transitional Assembly or Senate?

 Done explains miranda 04:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: "Six years later on June 6, 1998, the constitution was ratified to include ramifications" What ramifications? Ramifications means "effects"... not sure it's the right word here.

 Done Six years later, on June 6, 1998, the constitution was ratified, broadening the National Assembly's seats and making provisions for two vice presidents. Because of the Arusha Accord, Burundi enacted a transitional government in 2000.[32] miranda 22:21, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: "transitional Senate serves an unlimited amount of years." What??? So Senators serve for life?

 Done explained. miranda 04:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

• Explain: Is the President popularly elected?

 Done explained. miranda 04:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Economy

• "Approximately 80% of Burundi's population lives below the poverty line."
  • What poverty line? Users have no idea what that means.

They should. However,  Done explained with Burundi's population live in poverty. miranda 08:39, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Second opinion

This biggest problem with this article, in my opinion, is that it does not meet 1a) of the good article criteria—"the prose is clear and the spelling and grammar are correct"—even after all of the work that's been done during this review so far. Here are a few examples:

• "The country's modern name is derived from the Bantu language, Kirundi." Names don't derive from languages, they derive from words in languages. Does Burundi get its name from the name of the language?

' DoneThe name derives from Kirundi words. miranda 02:47, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

This actually caught me when I read it in the lead: which words? What do they mean? I think you'd be better off without this if you can't find any more detail. delldot talk 04:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I took the words out. miranda 21:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

• "However, at the beginning of the twentieth century ...". In spite of being flagged above, there are still discrepancies between twentieth and 17th, for instance.

 Done I decided to use "twentieth", "seventeenth", etc. miranda 16:45, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• "The kingdom continued through lineages, until the late 19th century." No idea what "through lineages" means.

 Done fixed. miranda 16:49, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• "In 1948, Belgium allowed the formation and competition between political parties." Eh? "... allowed the formation ... between political parties"?

 Done In 1948, Belgium allowed the region to form political parties. miranda 08:01, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

• "In April 2003, FRODEBU leader Domitien Ndayizeye had replaced Buyoya as Burundi's president." Had replaced?

 Done Deleted the word. miranda 06:45, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

• "In order to end fighting between the Tutsis and the Hutus, steps towards peace were established." Seems almost tautological. "Establishing steps" doesn't seem very idiomatic either.

 Done To stop the Tutsis and the Hutus' fighting in Burundi, peace agreements were formed between both parties. miranda 08:24, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

• "The current President of Burundi is Pierre Nkurunziza". As at when? 2008? Statements like that, that will date, should be avoided.

 Done As of 2008, the President of Burundi is Pierre Nkurunziza. miranda 02:47, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• "... 30% of the Senate must have female members". Must be made up of?

 Done Due to stipulations in Burundi's constitution, thirty-percent of Senate members must be female. miranda 16:49, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• "The Nile is a major river in Burundi, where Lake Victoria is the source. Lake Victoria shared by three other countries—Kenya, Tanzania, and Uganda. Another river forked by Lake Victoria is the Kagera River." Doesn't really make sense.

 Done fixed. The Nile is a major river in Burundi.[36] Lake Victoria is also an important water source, which serves as a fork to the Kagera River.[37][38] Another major lake is Lake Tanganyika, located in Burundi's southwest corner. miranda 00:41, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

• "The land is mostly agricultural or pasture, the creation of which has led to deforestation, soil erosion and habitat loss, due to rural populations." So which is it? Creation of agricultural land or pasture, or rural populations?

 Done Burundi's lands are mostly agricultural or pasture. Settlement by rural populations has led to deforestation, soil erosion and habitat loss. miranda 08:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

In summary, I think that this article still needs a great deal of work, and would benefit from the assistance of a strong copyeditor. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:18, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Malleus Fatuorum - the main issue is satisfying criterion 1a, and it would indeed be a great benefit if a strong copyeditor went through it - I see someone has begun copyediting already. This step would also be a start to bringing it up for considering at FAC at a later date. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:49, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Since the article appears to be undergoing a pretty significant (but certainly needed) copy edit and peer review, I am going to end Burundi's GA nomination for now, but please renominate when the article is totally complete! Best, epicAdam (talk) 14:45, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I was done with the copyedit, and that was it from me as far as the review. Why not see if the points can be addressed rather than failing it before they are? delldot talk 15:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

That's okay, delldot. I will ask another GA reviewer who is very familiar with the process to GA review this article when I am done or others are done copyediting. miranda 20:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments from delldot talk

Well done, and much respect for taking on this very difficult and important article! Some comments because I can't figure out how to fix them myself:

• civil war erupted in Burundi throughout the middle twentieth century - Not sure about erupted used with throughout. If civil wars was plural, this would give the impression that they kept popping up. delldot talk 05:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done emerged. miranda 06:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

• Can we have a parenthetical explanation for 'pygmoid'? delldot talk 05:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done I linked to pygmy. miranda 01:00, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

• occupied the region and provided the country's first widespread language. - is there a better word than provided? delldot talk 05:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done However, approximately 5,000 years ago, the Hutu, a Bantu-speaking people from the mountainous regions of central Africa, immigrated and provided Burundi's first language. miranda 01:00, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

• The kingdom continued through dynasties, until the late nineteenth century.--Can this be reworded? Continued through dynasties is vague and unclear. delldot talk 05:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done substituted with rulers. miranda 04:06, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

• Early settlement under History has a lot of choppy sentences. The last sentence wasn't totally clear; I reworded it, please rv me if I've changed the meaning. May want to clarify who/what Maconco and Birori were (political parties? Individuals?) What does 'take away Burundi's throne' mean? Is this referring to the King? delldot talk 05:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done Kind of fixed the flow. They were the king's opponents. miranda 01:01, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

• In 1948, Belgium allowed the formation and competition between political parties.--Awkward, can't think of how to reword though. delldot talk 05:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done In 1948, Belgium allowed the region to form political parties. miranda 08:02, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

• Clarify that Rwanda and Burundi together comprised Ruanda-Urundi in the first paragraph under European conquest; it's not clear until the third. I think a clarification early in this section of what the countries' relationship was would be helpful. The third paragraph discusses refugees entering Burundi from Rwanda before 'the country' gained its independence--wouldn't they still have been one country then? delldot talk 05:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done adnarim 00:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

• Six months later, political parties formed in order to bring attention to Burundi's independence from European control.--I'm not sure this sentence is accurate. To gain support for the movement to gain independence maybe? delldot talk 05:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done reworded. adnarim 00:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

• Following an UPRONA victory in legislative elections, Prince Rwagasore was assassinated in 1961 by a Greek national named Georges Kageorgis.[7] The country claimed independence in July 1, 1962,[7] and legally changed its name from Ruanda-Urundi to Burundi. - this appears to be a non-sequitur, or else I'm missing the significance of the assassination. delldot talk 05:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done deleted. adnarim 00:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

• Is it intentional that the article sometimes uses 'the Hutu' and sometimes 'the Hutus'? delldot talk 05:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done singular. adnarim 22:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

• There's repetition of some facts from the previous subsection in Independence and civil war, e.g. the assassination, the refugees. Maybe it would be helpful to arbitrarily select a year to stop one subsection and start another. delldot talk 05:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done I moved the last paragraph to the next section to make sense. adnarim 23:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

• FRODEBU leader Melchior Ndadaye became Burundi's first elected President and also Hutu President. - unclear. delldot talk 05:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done FRODEBU leader Melchior Ndadaye, a Hutu, became Burundi's first elected President. miranda 07:54, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

• The killing was a pretense for the Tutsi army to start a new genocide against the Hutu. Tutsi extremists massacred thousands of Hutu civilians. - sounds kind of pov. delldot talk 05:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done Ndadaye's murder strained ethnic relations between the Hutu and Tusi, which resulted in a mass amount of Burundians killed. miranda 08:14, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

• The August 2000 peace deal info is repeated in Peace agreement and present day from the previous section. So is Fighting between the Tutsis and Hutus continues to the present day. delldot talk 05:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done miranda 22:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant to just give this a copy edit, but ended up not being able to resist giving it a review too. I'll come back with more tomorrow if you want. delldot talk 05:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I moved this sentence to group it with other discussion of agriculture products: The nation's largest source of revenue is coffee, which makes up 78% of Burundi's exports. I wasn't sure if the ref from the next sentence covered it too, so I didn't copy the ref to this sentence. Either way, it needs a reference from somewhere. delldot talk 13:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done Fixed ref. and data. miranda 21:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

More comments:

• Citation needed for this sentence: Roughly 85% of the population are of Hutu ethnic origin, and 15% of the remaining population are Tutsi. delldot talk 13:58, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Cite 49 covers that. miranda 08:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

• The reader expects to read something about Batwa in the Demographics section because there's the image there. delldot talk 13:58, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I deleted that image and placed some new ones. miranda 08:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

you should add more things that has to do whith its goverment —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.163.64.242 (talk) 15:09, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Questions

This article states in its first section : - Political unrest occurred throughout the region because of social differences between the Tutsi and Hutu. - What are the social differences between Hutu and Tutsi? I assume Tutsis are richer than Tutsis?

Do they live in different parts of town? Do the Tutsis have better quality housing in the better parts of town? Do Tutsi children have better access to education? Are Tutsis disproportionately represented in government jobs - seemingly the most stable job in the country.

If you would read the article, then your questions would be

The Burundi culture section states the following : - When several Burundians of close acquaintance meet for a gathering they drink impeke, a beer, from a large container. Each person receives a straw to symbolize unity. I ask myself do the Hutus and Tutsis mix socially. Would they traditionally drink impeke together?

tk —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.83.231 (talk) 16:14, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

How are military groups like CNDD-FDD and the NLF funded?

This article on Burundi states the following :

- a cease-fire was signed in 2003 between the Tutsi controlled Burundian government and the largest Hutu rebel group, CNDD-FDD (National Council for the Defense of Democracy-Forces for the Defense of Democracy). -

&

- As of 2008, the Burundian government is talking with the Hutu-led Palipehutu-National Liberation Forces (NLF)[27] to bring peace within the country.[28] -

Are CNDD-FDD and NLF guerilla organisations? Is it possible to find out what governments/private companies are backing them up? Then I ask myself why? These soldiers must be fed, trained in weapon use, and reimbursed for their 'labour'.

The wealth and funding required to create and maintain these 'guerilla' armies is hardly generated in Burundi ( - one of the poorest countries in the world. )

Answers to questions like these would be greatly appreciated.

-tk- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.83.231 (talk) 16:30, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Burundi economy - Are there many foreign companies in Burundi

The section on the Burundi economy states the following : - Burundi's natural resources include uranium, nickel, cobalt, copper, and platinum.[49] Besides agriculture, other industries include: assembly of imported components; public works construction; food processing, and light consumer goods such as blankets, shoes, and soap. - Are foreign companies doing businees in Burundi? Are the natural resources of Burundi, (uranium, nickel, cobalt, copper, and platinum) extracted and expploited? If there are foreign companies operating in Burundi, would they significantly affect the politics and stability of the country?

-tk- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.83.231 (talk) 16:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think some of your questions are necessary to address in the article. If you would have read the article more thoroughly, you would not be confused. Also, Tutsis are richer than Tutsis doesn't make sense. As with any other African nation's government which is currently unstable, very little information is available. miranda 20:39, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

OK point accepted, on reading the the 'Economy' part of the article I see that Burundi's main export is coffee. I assume Burundi's natural mineral resources are not currently axtracted and exploited. ( Which could be a big earner for the government ) The mistake I made regarding 'Tutsis being richer than tutsis' should obviously read 'tutsis richer than Hutus.' I do think all my questions are very relevant to this article though.

The questions I added regarding the funding of the military organizations, have also been added to other Wikipedia articles discussing military organizations in different parts of Africa. HOW THEY ARE FUNDED AND BY WHOM to me is very relevant.

Lastly I'd like to thank you for responding to my queries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.83.231 (talk) 21:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that the government would reveal such information to the public about what organizations fund the army/military. But, you can do independent research on that topic. :-) miranda 04:17, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Burundi/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

• Stagger the images left and right so there isn't a lot of them on the right side per MOS:IMAGE. Also, the fixed widths on most of them are unnecessary; usually it's only necessary if a minimum width is needed to be able to read some text that is important to the understanding of the image.

 Done miranda 23:46, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

• References needed:
  • "Another major lake is Lake Tanganyika, located in Burundi's southwest corner."

 Done miranda 00:57, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

• Some of the references are incorrectly formatted per WP:CITE/ES. I strongly suggest using {{cite web}} for the references instead. Examples include:
  • "Burundi. International Center for Transitional Justice Retrieved on July 27, 2008." missing a period.
  • "Global Ceasefire Agreement between Burundi and the CNDD-FDD. November 20, 2003. United Nations Security Council. Relief Web. Retrieved July 24, 2008." – "Relief Web" goes before "United Nations Security Council" and should be italicized.

 Done to both. I kind of object to using citeweb, because in some instances citeweb doesn't properly format some citations. Whenever I use citeweb, I am usually prepping the article for FA. I am not so in this case. miranda 00:16, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

• En dashes must be used for page ranges per WP:DASH

 Done Replaced all of these. miranda 23:57, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

• "Puddington, A., Freedom of the World, p. 145.", "Puddington, A., Freedom of the World, p. 145-146.", and "Puddington, A., Freedom of the World, p. 146." could be merged and only use the "145–146" page range.

Well, I kind of object to this because the one fact isn't located on both pages. One fact, if I recall correctly, is located in a table on one page. And, the other fact is located as text. miranda 23:57, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with miranda on this one. Kaldari (talk) 22:24, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Gary King (talk) 15:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

• A lot of red links in "Culture". Perhaps unlink the red links?
• Numerical ranges including page ranges and date ranges must use an en dash per WP:DASH (such as for "338-9", "1945-1996")
• "# ^ a b c Burundi - Politics. Canadian Council on Africa. Retrieved on June 30, 2008." is dead
• The article needs a copyedit. A lot of the paragraphs are made up of many short sentences; some could be merged to make them flow better. For instance:
  • "Burundi is known as one of the ten" → "Burundi is one of the ten"
  • "Early settlement" strikes me as a single paragraph with many, short sentences. Perhaps merge some to make them flow better.
  • Another example: "In 1993, Burundi held the first democratic presidential elections; the Hutu-dominated Front for Democracy in Burundi (FRODEBU) won." could be "In 1993, the Hutu-dominated Front for Democracy in Burundi (FRODEBU) won Burundi's first democratic presidential elections."

Gary King (talk) 17:15, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Gary! I have addressed your concerns relating to this article. I do believe that this article needs copyediting, but the problem with Burundi is that little sources are available for Early History as well as other topics in the article. miranda 04:25, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I still think the prose generally requires more work. There are a lot of pairs of sentences that could easily be merged to make the paragraphs flow better, such as "The Transitional Senate has fifty-one members. Three seats are reserved for former presidents." → "The Transitional Senate has fifty-one members, and three seats are reserved for former presidents." Gary King (talk) 14:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I have asked some people to copyedit the article. Thanks. miranda 00:59, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Any update? There are a few places where you can look for copyeditors; WP:PRV could be useful. Gary King (talk) 16:28, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I asked some people. miranda 03:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I should close this review for now to give you more time to work on it? Gary King (talk) 19:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I really don't see any more problems of the article, since I have addressed your issues and other people have copyedited the article. I am not reaching for FA, but GA. miranda 18:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Passing Gary King (talk) 17:39, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Errors?

I've been translating this article into Finnish and I've been struck by a few glaring errors. In the geography-section it said that Burundi is the smallest country in Africa, which certainly is not the case (I already corrected this). In politics, it reads that "As of 2004, the Transitional National Assembly consists of 170 members, with the Front for Democracy in Burundi holding 38% of seats, and 10% of the assembly is controlled by UPRONA. Fifty-two seats are controlled by other parties." This however seems to be completely false and the numbers don't match–according to this site the Assebly only has 118 members and CNDD-FDD is the biggest party. Also, I'm unable to find this information from the source specified. Information in the final chapter ("The Court Supreme (Supreme Court) is Burundi's highest court. There are three Courts of Appeals directly below the Supreme Court. Tribunals of First Instance are used as judicial courts in each of Burundi's provinces as well as 123 local tribunals") also seems to be absent from the specified source.

Then I've been baffled by this: "The Nile is a major river in Burundi. Lake Victoria is also an important water source, which serves as a fork to the Kagera River." How exactly is Lake Victoria an important water source, as Burundi doesn't even have any access to it? (And I don't really understand the sentence either.) Then, in economy, "and according to the World Food Programme, 56.8% of children under age five suffer from chronic malnutrition" is wrong, as the source says that "44 percent of children under five suffer chronic malnutrition".

I've obviously corrected these mistakes (?) in the Finnish version. They make me feel a bit unconfortable, as I'm no longer sure if the text I've been translating is accurate–and this is supposed to be a good article. Do the author(s) have any comments on this, are these just individual mishaps, have the sources changed, are they misunderstandings on my part or is the whole article (also those references that aren't online and that I'm unable to check) poorly referenced? Now it also seems that the history-section got inflated, I wonder if this should be reverted? --Olli (talk) 21:37, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

External links

I have added GovPubs, a new University/Government source that's far better than earlier ones available. IF you want to, you can delete the Stanford and U of Penn links (they're included in the ODP Guides and Directories subcategory anyway). I have no preference one way or the other, but if you're trying to keep the number of links down, those would be two you could remove. Flatterworld (talk) 05:08, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

"Ethnic" origins

The article currently states that:

Archaeological evidence shows that a pygmoid hunter gathering tribe, the Twa, first settled the region in 70,000 B.C.[3] However, approximately 5,000 years ago, the Hutu, a Bantu-speaking people from the mountainous regions of central Africa, immigrated and provided Burundi's first language.[4] The Hutu served as the main farming group in the country.[5] Following the Hutu, the Tutsi tribe settled the region in the late fifteenth century.[6] The Tutsi were descendants of Nilo-Hamitic-speaking people from Ethiopia.[5]

I don't have access to the Eggers or Gates books cited, but this is heavily contested to say the least. Here is an (admittedly pretty imperfect) article on the origins of "Hutu" and "Tutsi". Essentially, there is little evidence to support the theory of Tutsi North East African descent, and it is questionable whether they constitute separate ethnic groups at all, as opposed to social groups. If they do, they are far from hard and fast groupings; it was (is?), for example, possible to become Tutsi during one's lifetime.

Mlleangelique (talk) 23:38, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Whatever happened, it is certainly not true to say that the Hutu (or whoever arrived in 3000 BC) brought "Burundi's first language". I'm assuming that's a slip of the tongue and not deliberate belittling of the previous inhabitants, but I'll remove it anyhow.--Rallette (talk) 11:49, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Genocide?

Why isn't there a section and mention of the two incidences of genocide by the Tutsis against the Hutus on this page? There is a separate page called Burundi genocide, but no section? However, there is a section on the Rwanda page of the genocide against the Tutsi people, though there is also a Rwandan Genocide page separately. It just seems there needs to be a section of genocide on the Burundi page as well and a re-direct to the Burundi genocide page.

There is an entire section concerning the Rwandan Genocide on the Rwanda page, but only this one sentence on the Burundi page: After several more years of genocide against the Hutu, a cease-fire was signed in 2003 between the Tutsi-controlled Burundian government and the largest Hutu rebel group, CNDD-FDD (National Council for the Defense of Democracy-Forces for the Defense of Democracy). However, this is in reference to the time between 2001 and the 2003 ceasefire, not the genocidal incidences which occurred in 1972 and 1993. There is no mention of the 1972 or 1993 incidents on this Burundi page, let alone a section and a re-direct to the Burundi genocide page!

Before I add this section and redirects I wanted to discuss this omission here. Supertheman ^(talk) 07:55, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Burundi

It is in africa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.207.132.241 (talk) 21:45, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Barrundi fish

Can anyone tell me what is the Barrundi fish simce I could not find it and a friend of mine told me about it

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by AmnonInbar (talk • contribs) 20:08, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

History

Anything about the history of this area before the 1900s? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.115.83.140 (talk) 02:00, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

The Nile

The Nile is an important river of Burundi? Really? The citation hardly looks to come from a reliable source. Skinsmoke (talk) 16:09, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually the Kagera River is the most remote tributary of the Nile and begins in Burundi. It is the largest tributary of Lake Victoria in which the White Nile begins. But don't take it from me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kagera_River - Cashmoney —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.135.33.137 (talk) 16:58, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Sports section?

Anyone think a sports section should be made? There's a small amount about football in the "culture" section already but it doesn't mention the Burundi national football team or other sports. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drawley (talk • contribs) 07:27, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Population density wrong

This page is at odds with the list of population densities when you click through. Burundi appears at 48th on the list, but is noted as 45th on its own page, and the figures don't match either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.14.42 (talk) 07:27, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Poverty, instability and strife

The article attributes Burundi's poverty, political instability and internal strife to "civil wars, corruption, poor access to education, and the effects of HIV/AIDS". Is this not largely the legacy of the colonial era? Fconaway (talk) 04:38, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Ahh, excuse me? AIDS is a colonial imposition? And last time I checked many former colonies, including in Africa (see Botswana) are doing pretty well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.12.195.226 (talk) 20:45, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Burundi Black

Where should the song Burundi Black by Mike Steiphenson be listed on here?--90.217.236.125 (talk) 19:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Not Landlocked

It can't be landlocked if therese a waterborn traport route; Unless you wish to say the lake does not reach an ocean (that it is itself a land locked lake, eventually to die up from salt deposits), the country inherantly can not be land locked. (If this is the case, it really should be clarified in the article to avoid this exact issue.) A J REDDSON — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.175.16.194 (talk) 06:25, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Hutu Numbers Don't Add Up

If the populations of Rwanda and Burundi are both 85 percent Hutu as claimed in the respective articles, then the Hutu population of just these two counties should add up to 17 million or so Hutu, as opposed to the worldwide total of 11 million as given in the Hutu article.

So what gives?

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Burundi/GA3. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

This article contains several unaddressed citation needed tags concerning contentious statements and statistics, thus failing criterion 2b. The "Kingdom of Burundi" section is a stub, so criterion 3a is also not met. I will wait a week before closing this reassessment so editors can have the opportunity to fix these issues.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 00:48, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi FT, I'm not one of the original editors here, but I'd be glad to pitch in to try to keep it at GA status. The only catch is that I'm on Wikibreak this week while some family and friends are visiting. Would you be willing to hold it to the 24th? -- Khazar2 (talk) 00:59, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Sure. No problem.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 01:02, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Looking at this again post-break, I don't think I'm going to be able to do this expansion any time soon; I underestimated the work involved in my first glance. If no one else is interested in taking it on, I'd agree that it needs to be delisted. It's probably better that it get a thorough rewrite and renomination instead of a patchwork job from me anyway. -- Khazar2 (talk) 20:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, hopefully someone can get this article back to GA status in the future.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 21:12, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Result: Delisted.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 21:12, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Burundi/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

The erea of Burundi is 27 834km2 instead of 27 830km2. This needs to be corrected.

Last edited at 22:47, 4 July 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 08:52, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Health Section

I moved this section previously located under Health to Economy.

"Burundi is a landlocked, resource-poor country with an underdeveloped manufacturing sector. The economy is predominantly agricultural; agriculture accounts for just over 30% of GDP and employs more than 90% of the population. Burundi's primary exports are coffee and tea, which account for 90% of foreign exchange earnings, though exports are a relatively small share of GDP. Burundi's export earnings – and its ability to pay for imports – rests primarily on weather conditions and international coffee and tea prices."

Hifear267 (talk) 16:08, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be more information on the 2015/16 crisis? It is relevant and an important issue in Burundi overall.

Also, Isn't the percent of Muslim people in Burundi more than 3%? - Martine N (talk) 03:18, 13 October 2016 Martine N (talk) 19:19, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Religion

Isn't the percent of Muslim people in Burundi more than 3%?

Martine N (talk) 19:22, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

History

Shouldn't there be more information on the 2015/16 crisis? It is relevant and an important issue in Burundi overall.

Martine N (talk) 19:23, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

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External links modified

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English as Official Language

I've noticed a lot of reverts with the language section. Just to clarify, English is an official language. In addition, I've noticed that some have claimed that the draft law has not come into effect. This is not true. Please do not revert the language edit. If, for whatever reason, you still contest whether English is an official language, please discuss it here. Hesnotblack (talk) 22:30, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

It also passed in the Senate: Loi no 1/ 30 du 3 Novembre 2014 Portant statut des langues au Burundi. Hesnotblack (talk) 19:31, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Made a mistake on the edit summary - said Kiswahilli was official - obviously Kirundi is the sole national language. Hesnotblack (talk) 20:18, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

References

colony of Belgium?

The main body of the article gives nuances that would not be in the introductory paragraph; but still, is it correct to simply say Burundi was a Belgian colony? I think it is misleading. Perhaps this sentence: "Both Germans and Belgians ruled Burundi and Rwanda as a European colony known as Ruanda-Urundi" could be changed to "Germans ruled Burundi as a colony until it was joined to Rwanda as a Mandate of the League of Nations entrusted to Belgium, which treated it as a colony until independence in 1962." I would also say the whole lede is far too long, with much material that should be moved to the body of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richardson mcphillips (talk • contribs) 01:31, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Is Gitega already capital?

The article listed new capital city of Burundi. But only one source is citied for this, and in this source information is only about decision of the government, furthermore in this source we can read: "Parliament, dominated by the ruling party, must still approve the move." So, no source in the article that capital was formally moved to Gitega. Moreover, information is only about de iure procedure. Have government and president moved to Gitega, or still they are in Bujumbura? If the second then Bujumbura is still de facto capital. Aotearoa (talk) 19:46, 8 February 2019 (UTC)