Talk:Bulat Utemuratov/Archive 1

Archive 1

Changes undone

Radicalbavin, it appears that you may be editing with a Conflict of interest, as you identify yourself on your User page as a marketing expert who specialises in brand management. Such editors should use Talk pages to limit their direct interactions with Wikipedia, as our potential bias may unintentionally affect the tone of the articles if we make changes without explanation. In one case, the source you used has been noted as potentially problematic under WP:RS given it is a .org domain and the United States’ historical influence on this publication means it should be reviewed by an independent editor. You also embedded this text as an external link in the text, rather than using the citation system, so when bots convert this it can leave a bare url. In another edit, you used a source that again does not meet WP:RS because there is no editorial control of this publication and the author predominantly republishes press-releases. I have therefore removed these recent edits as they are not appropriate for mainspace. Thank you for your understanding! Podsought (talk) 11:00, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Edit Request

I would like to request some changes as this article has been marked as having multiple issues. In the interest of transparency and compliance with Wikipedia’s Conflict of Interest policies, I declare that I have a connection with Bulat Utemuratov.

1. Firstly, the concerns in the banner have largely been resolved. The article should now be in line with Wikipedia guidelines so the text reads neutrally, all sources function as intended, and the multiple issues tag can be removed.

 Not done To my eyes, this article is still too promotional with too many claims with out relaible citations, so teh templates shoud stay. Duke Gilmore (talk) 04:00, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

1. In the Business section could we please remove the following, as the actions of the new owner are not relevant to Utemuratov: “The deal turned out to be a poor one for Unicredit”

 Done Hindsight analysis of the buyer and transaction is irrelevant to the subject of the article. Duke Gilmore (talk)

1. I have made some of the previous elements of this request directly to the page as following reflection I don't believe these are controversial/require discussion. These include copy-editing, removing/replacing non RS citations, and adding an image once one was available. Please see the history page to view the diffs.

I reviewed the edits made by the editor with a COI, and they seem OK to me. Duke Gilmore (talk)

Thank you in advance! Podsought (talk) 17:12, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

 Partly done Article still needs work, imo. See comments above. Cheers. Duke Gilmore (talk) 04:00, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi Duke Gilmore, thank you for taking the time to review my request and edits, it is hugely appreciated considering the huge backlog which has been challenging for both of us. Obviously I am still eager to resolve the issues in the banner. What do you think of the below suggestions?

Some of this article's listed sources may not be reliable. (August 2022)

This referred to the deleted LinkedIn source which has now been removed. I can see that there is one bare url to fix, which I will do now, along with any other underwhelming citations.

This biography of a living person needs additional citations for verification, as its only attribution is to self-published sources; articles should not be based solely on such sources. (August 2022)

Again this refers to now-deleted sources, and there is also now a lot of secondary material to balance this. I personally think removing the external link to twitter (which is currently broken anyway) would help; I will replace this with the official website in the Infobox too. There are only 2 ‘citation needed’ tags left so this banner seems like overkill. There are primary sources which confirm the points in question but if there is currently no independent coverage I think removing this material would be better in line with BLP policy. I will do this now - let me know your thoughts!

This article contains content that is written like an advertisement. (February 2022)

Could you please indicate what you think needs to change to address this?

A major contributor to this article appears to have a close connection with its subject. (February 2022)

Once you are happy that the article is in line with all guidelines I would again request that this is removed

Thanks again for your help so far and have a great Christmas/holiday season!

Podsought (talk) 11:53, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Edit request

I am submitting a new request as I think the issues raised in the banner on this article have been addressed and merit a full separate review for removal by additional editors. Please see my updated reasoning here for consideration:

• Some of this article's listed sources may not be reliable. (August 2022)

This referred to the deleted LinkedIn source which has now been removed. There are no more bare urls in the References list.

• This biography of a living person needs additional citations for verification, as its only attribution is to self-published sources; articles should not be based solely on such sources. (August 2022)

Again, this refers to now-deleted sources, and there is also now a lot of secondary material to balance this.

• This article contains content that is written like an advertisement. (February 2022)

Could you please indicate what needs to change to address this?

• A major contributor to this article appears to have a close connection with its subject. (February 2022)

Once everyone is happy that the article is in line with all guidelines I would again request that this is removed.

As a final note, could the following piece of recent news be added in the "Other" section:

Following the 2023 Turkey-Syria earthquake, Utemuratov donated $5 million to the Turkish Disaster and Emergency Management Authority (AFAD).

[Source: https://astanatimes.com/2023/04/turkiyes-embassy-extends-gratitude-to-kazakh-people-for-support-in-aftermath-of-earthquake/, https://www.aa.com.tr/fr/monde/kazakhstan-pr%C3%A8s-de-10-millions-de-dollars-collect%C3%A9s-pour-les-victimes-des-s%C3%A9ismes-en-turkiye/2831101 or https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/asrin-felaketi/kazakistan-da-turkiye-deki-depremzedeler-icin-toplanan-bagis-10-milyon-dolara-yaklasti/2830977 (available in French or Turkish)]

Thank you again to everyone for taking these requests into consideration. Podsought (talk) 16:14, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

 Partly done: I personally believe that the COI template should be placed on the talk page because a close connection with a subject or topic doesn't necessarily mean that an article automatically has significant flaws. I also don't think that the article warrants a BLP self-published tag since most sources cited in this article aren't self-published. However, the article definitely reads like an advertisement, it popagates Tennis in Kazakhstan and heavily focuses on aspects that are not relevant for a Wikipedia article on a person. The sources also don't seem too trustworthy (at least not independent). Thus, I'm not removing the advert and unreliable sources tags. Please consider improving the article by debloating it, citing better sources, and fixing the grammar. I suggest you put your proposals forward as new edit requests. Best regards, -- Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 12:36, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Edit request

Hello, I would like to request further changes to this article. Once again I declare that I have a connection to Utemuratov.

The recent reordering of the article has made some changes which do not make sense. There is a new "Oligarch" section, which is not a typical section title, and seems to synthesize its own conclusions from three otherwise unrelated statements that do not follow on from each other.

This content should be moved to more appropriate placings in the Career section. The net worth could be moved to the introduction, as it is likely to update over time and not sit well in a chronological section. The 2020 WSJ report should just be in the Career section or removed as the injunction was revoked. The 2022 Hodge speech should also be moved to the end of the Career section.

Many thanks! Podsought (talk) 11:36, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

@Podsought Thank you for your request. If you could be more specific in describing the verbatim text which is to be moved, including a verbatim description of any text to be deleted, that would be much appreciated. Please advise. When ready to proceed with the verbatim text, please change the {{Edit COI}} template's |ans= parameter to read from |ans=y to |ans=n.  Spintendo  14:05, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Spintendo, thanks for answering so quickly! Here are the sentences that need moving:

1. "In October 2019, Utemuratov was in the top three of Forbes list of the 50 richest businessmen of Kazakhstan with an estimated capital of US$3,4 billion." should be moved to the introduction after the existiing paragraph there. As this estimate is from a stable URL from 2019 it could also be placed at the end of the Career section, but because updates are plausible I'm still leaning towards introduction.

2. The next two paragraphs are as follows, and should be moved into the Career section itself after the sentence "In 2015, Glencore bought Utemuratov's Gulfstream private jet in an undisclosed transaction". They are already in chronological order.

On 1 December 2020, The Wall Street Journal reported about the freezing of Utemuratov's assets including stakes in luxury hotels, cash in bank accounts in half a dozen countries and a Burger King franchise, by a UK civil court on the claim of BTA Bank. According to a statement distributed by Verny Capital on 9 December 2020, the freezing injunction of the English Court in relation to the assets of Bulat Utemuratov had been revoked following a settlement between the two parties.

In March 2022, Dame Margaret Hodge, a British Member of Parliament, named Utemuratov in a speech about corruption in Kazakhstan. Utemuratov was one of 30 oligarchs and members of the Kazakh elite who, Hodge claimed, had benefited from their ties to the Nazarbayev regime. Hodge said: “Bulat Utemuratov is a former chief of staff to Nazarbayev. A US diplomatic cable reported allegations that Utemuratov was the president’s "personal financial manager" and his own website assesses his personal wealth at $3.9 billion.”

Please let me know if i can clarify further! Podsought (talk) 14:42, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

 Already done These three paragraphs are already at the end of the Career section, following the sentence In 2015, Glencore bought Utemuratov's Gulfstream private jet in an undisclosed transaction. Regards,  Spintendo  19:30, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

@Spintendo can the inappropriate "Oligarch" title be removed as part of this? This section only makes sense chronologically, the paragraphs are otherwise unrelated and grouping them together under this title does not read neutrally. Podsought (talk) 11:20, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

@Podsought I've changed the heading to "2022 speech on corruption by British MP". The information about the Forbes list was moved to the end of the career section. Because the freezing of assets paragraph is related to the speech on corruption paragraph, I made one to be a subheading of the other. No content was deleted—only the headings were changed. Regards,  Spintendo  15:36, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Spintendo, thank you for answering, I respectfully have to disagree that these paragraphs require this level of emphasis. I have raised a post at the BLPN as I think the new subheadings are not in line with NPOV Podsought (talk) 08:41, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

BLP noticeboard note

The new subsection titles added recently are undue emphasis on the events they describe.

The first of these sections describes an asset freeze which lasted only a week before it was lifted due to proven non-participation.

The second subsection refers to a mention in a speech, containing an allegation which arose from a cable published by Wikileaks, (which is not admissible as a source on Wikipedia), and where Utemuratov was only mentioned in passing. This speech did not garner significant press coverage, is not mentioned in the articles of any other individuals named, and as such appears targeted. The User who added this, User:Radicalbavin, describes themselves as an “Online Marketing Expert” saying “I am the founder of an online marketing agency that specializes in content writing, brand management and professional Wikipedia editing.” It is highly frustrating that content added by a user making this claim on their User page is not questioned on a BLP.

Ideally these events themselves should be removed, for the reasons above, but at the very least the subheadings emphasising them should be removed. Podsought (talk) 08:41, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Edit request November 2023

Hello again, I would like to request some new changes to the Career section of the article. As mentioned previously, I declare that I have a connection to Utemuratov.

1. Could the following sentence please be added after the first sentence in the section:

He brokered Kazakhstan’s first line of credit with Bank Creditanstalt.

2. In the second paragraph could the opening sentence be changed to read as follows:

After Utemuratov returned, he held several senior roles in the Kazakh government including deputy minister for external economic affairs.

3. In the same paragraph please add the below sentence immediately after the line about ATF Bank growing from a small financial institution to a large group.

HSBC, ING, Paribas, and Société Générale all showed interest in acquiring ATF.

4. Please add the below standalone sentence in between paragraphs 2 and 3.

In 1996 Utemuratov was appointed as ambassador to Switzerland, a position he held for three years.

Please note that reference 1 (Bloomberg) from the reflist in the live article supports the first, second and fourth requested additions.

Thank you in advance for considering this new request. Podsought (talk) 10:12, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

 Unable to review. The Bloomberg source is paywalled, meaning the COI editor should activate the |quote= parameter in three separate instances in order to act as accompaniment for each claim, whereby the verbatim text from the source may provide each needed verification. Please note that if the Bloomberg source is an interview with the subject, then any claims which involve third parties should be omitted, or else a reliable secondary source should be provided that is not merely the subject's own words. Please be sure to place a new edit request template when ready to proceed. Regards,  Spintendo  14:56, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

References

November request resubmitted

Please see an updated version below with the quote parameter for all references! All changes refer to the Career section. As mentioned previously, I declare that I have a connection to Utemuratov.

1. Could the following sentence please be added after the first sentence in the section:

He brokered Kazakhstan’s first line of credit with Bank Creditanstalt.

2. In the second paragraph could the opening sentence be changed to read as follows:

After Utemuratov returned, he held several senior roles in the Kazakh government including deputy minister for external economic affairs.

3. In the same paragraph please add the below sentence immediately after the line about ATF Bank growing from a small financial institution to a large group.

HSBC, ING, Paribas, and Société Générale reportedly showed interest in acquiring ATF.

4. Please add the below standalone sentence in between paragraphs 2 and 3.

In 1996 Utemuratov was appointed as ambassador to Switzerland, a position he held for three years.

Please note that reference 1 (Bloomberg) from the reflist in the live article supports the first, second and fourth requested additions. Podsought (talk) 17:17, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Reply 8-NOV-2023

Below you will see where proposals from your request have been quoted with reviewer decisions and feedback inserted underneath, either accepting, declining or otherwise commenting upon your proposal(s). Please read the enclosed notes within the proposal review section below for information on each request.

Edit request review 8-NOV-2023

He brokered Kazakhstan’s first line of credit with Bank Creditanstalt. Clarification needed. After Utemuratov returned, he held several senior roles in the Kazakh government including deputy minister for external economic affairs  Declined. HSBC, ING, Paribas, and Société Générale reportedly showed interest in acquiring ATF.  Declined. In 1996 Utemuratov was appointed as ambassador to Switzerland, a position he held for three years.  Approved. ___________

Regards,  Spintendo  19:59, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi Spintendo, thanks for reviewing this. I note your point on the sources not confirming the wording I used. Accordingly, could these additions be made in the same textual positions as previously mentioned now that I have amended the phrasing?

1. He helped broker Kazakhstan’s first line of credit with Bank Creditanstalt.

2. "After Utemuratov returned, he was made first deputy minister for external economic affairs."

Thanks again for your time and work to improve this article Podsought (talk) 17:40, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

 Done The location where the information was placed in the article was a guesstimate, because that requested location was not carried over into this conversation thread. Regards,  Spintendo  23:37, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

I have moved the first point to the intended location as stated in the earlier thread, thank you for your help and feedback! Podsought (talk) 14:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Edit request November 30 2023

Hi, I would like to present an argument for restoring recently removed content from this article, and some further amendments. I have a conflict of interest connection to Utemuratov.

Can the following sections be considered for reinstatement for the reasons provided:

1. "Since 2007 Utemuratov has been the President of the Kazakhstan Tennis Federation. He has invested US$200 million to develop the sport in various ways such as establishing the country's national teams, developing children's tennis, and constructing tennis infrastructure in all major cities of Kazakhstan."

Reason: Utemuratov’s success as President of the KTF is notable for the increase in Kazakhstan's standing on the world stage in this sport. The funding, development, and talent-seeking programs which Utemuratov has overseen have most notably contributed to the successes of Elena Rybakina and Alexander Bublik, and have drawn long-form commentary from media outside of Kazakhstan such as this New York Times feature and the tennis.com feature cited later in this request. It is also arguable that his tenure in this position is one of the reasons he was elected VP of the ITF. It would therefore be sensible to reinstate this text into the Tennis section, either just before or after the sentence on the ITF position.

2. "Since September 2015, Utemuratov has been a board member of the International Tennis Federation."

Reason: This is an elected position which demonstrates Utemuratov’s consistent involvement in the ITF beyond his role as VP. It would make sense to reinclude this either before or after the mention of the ITF in the Tennis section.

3. "In October 2022, Kazakhstan hosted its first ever ATP 500 tournament in Astana."

Reason: This ATP 500 tournament is a reputable professional competition, is the first of its kind in Kazakhstan, and the source refers to it as Utemuratov's "baby" due to his level of involvement. Accordingly, this is both notable and relevant to Utemuratov’s biographical article on Wikipedia, and should be included at an appropriate point in the Tennis section.

Similarly, there is additional independent coverage of this and other ATP tournaments with particular focus on the effect Utemuratov has had in establishing Kazakhstan as a serious contender in professional tennis. I would like to put forward the following additional sentence, for inclusion just before the mention of the 2022 ATP 500 tournament and after the mention of infrastructure investment in point 1.

Text for addition: "During Utemuratov’s presidency of the KTF, the Astana Open was established in 2020, returning in 2021, both as licensed ATP 250 events."

4. "The Foundation's flagship project "Autism. One World for All", provides early intervention programs for autistic children and support for their families."

Reason: At present there is no context for what the Foundation does, which is not very informative. The Autism. One World for All project, as flagship, would be a sensible inclusion to ensure a minimum of understanding.

5. In the See also section, Vyacheslav Kim is an odd choice, as there is neither a private nor business connection between these two individuals. A more appropriate choice might be David Haggerty who is the president of the ITF to Utemuratov's vice-president.

6. I would like to suggest some External links:

• Official website
• Foundation website
• Verny Capital
• Kazakhstan Tennis Foundation

7. Finally, the article subheadings could do with review. A previous Section too long banner suggested considering splitting content, condensing it, or adding subheadings, but the article has changed a lot since 2022. I suggest the following headings:

• (Introduction)
• Early life and education
• Career (either no-subheadings or:)

• Finance and investment
• Tennis

• Charity (no subheadings)
• Personal life
• Awards
• See also
• References
• External Links

Many thanks for considering making these restorations and changes. Podsought (talk) 14:14, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Reply 30-NOV-2023

The COI editor, while posting edit requests, is still making changes to the article themself. I think it would be prudent if the COI editor chose whether or not they wish other editors to make changes or if they are going to remain making changes themselves. There should be an economy of actions here, as working both sides of the curtain, so to speak, seems counterintuitive. Also, the COI editor has stated that this requested information was previously removed from the article, but they have not provided the diffs that show this removal, nor have they stated whether or not they consulted first with the editor(s) who made those changes. Regards,  Spintendo  04:03, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi Spintendo, happy new year! I thought my moving of the sentence to its intended location within the text was not a controversial move and possibly not worth requesting as it seemed a bit bureaucratic, which is why I made this change directly. I am happy to incorporate such changes into my requests going forward, but it does seem counterintuitive to bother the community with very simple, logical changes that don't really merit discussion. I also brought several instances of one citation under a single reference name; I also did not believe this required committee sign off so to speak.

The diff for the removed material is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bulat_Utemuratov&diff=1184173063&oldid=1182729788

As I am not requesting the whole text be restored, and in any case, the merits of each sentence would need to be discussed, I presented them for individual consideration. I think it might be worth a third party having a look, as you were the editor who removed this information. As I'm sure we both sincerely believe our arguments for removing/keeping the argument have merit, it would be nice to get another view. Podsought (talk) 13:04, 10 January 2024 (UTC)