Talk:Buddy Holly/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: SilkTork (talk · contribs) 08:56, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'll start reading over the next few days and then begin to make comments. I am normally a slow reviewer - if that is likely to be a problem, please let me know as soon as possible. I tend to directly do copy-editing and minor improvements as I'm reading the article rather than list them here; if there is a lot of copy-editing to be done I may suggest getting a copy-editor (on the basis that a fresh set of eyes is helpful). Anything more significant than minor improvements I will raise here. I see the reviewer's role as collaborative and collegiate, so I welcome discussion regarding interpretation of the criteria. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time}

Closed. Not listed. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 08:39, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tick box

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose is clear and concise, without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:

B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. Has an appropriate reference section:

B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary:

C. No original research:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects:

B. Focused:
Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias:
Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc:
Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

Comments on GA criteria

Pass

Has an appropriate reference section. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:30, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Article is stable. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:30, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No evidence of OR - appears to stick to sources. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 18:36, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No evidence of bias. Article appears neutral. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 16:53, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There are images with suitable captions. While the last three images. a museum sign, headstone, and signpost, are not examples of highly encyclopaedic images, and their value to the article is debatable (I could see an argument that the article would be better off without them), I think there would be enough rationale for their inclusion to meet the GA criteria for relevance. I think there could also be an argument that this article would greatly benefit from audio clips to demonstrate Holly's vocal style, production technique, and the basic instrument set up that would go on to epitomise rock music, though the lack of such samples I don't think by itself is a reason to fail, more something for ongoing development. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 17:04, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Images all appropriately tagged. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 15:11, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Query

~~There appears to be an incorrect free-use tag on File:Budy Holly Ed Sullivan 1958.jpg. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 11:00, 11 August 2015 (UTC)~~ I have removed the image. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 15:11, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There are a lot of external links - are they all appropriate according to the guidelines in Wikipedia:External links? SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 01:59, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Prose is OK - it is readable, and the information is generally clear, though it could be a little tighter in places. The GA criteria is that the prose should be both "clear" and "concise" - I think it's the "concise" part that could do with attention. I have mentioned a couple of examples below. I suggest a new editor look over the article with a view to tightening it up as it helps to have a fresh pair of eyes. It requires a little more than a simple copy-edit (this is more about rephrasing and editing content rather than correcting grammar and spelling), so perhaps a fellow editor from Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians or Wikipedia:WikiProject Rock music rather than from Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:36, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Article appears to mainly meet MoS requirements, though the Lead could be tighter. We have perhaps too much detail on his life and career, with nothing on his image and style. The Book link might be better placed in the External links section; and the number of links in that section should be closely examined - there seem a lot of them for a GA article; one of the links is to a newspaper article. Consideration could also be given to the Wikipedia:Further reading section, as guidance is against lengthy lists; there are already significant Holly books listed in the sources section such as Norman's biography so the value of that list is dubious. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:49, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Article seems appropriately sourced, though there is a citation needed tag in the Film and musical depictions section.SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 11:13, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Also we have a long quote from Maria Holly which says that she was two weeks pregnant when he went on tour, while other sources say three weeks ([1]). A minor point, but a curious one. I think it may be important to keep some reference to that, as in my background reading I am picking up some speculation that she wasn't pregnant, but made up the miscarriage to gain sympathy. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 11:13, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I also read a source that stated that she possibly made up the miscarriage story, but I didn't gave it too much importance since a large number of reliable sources also state that she was at the time pregnant. I think one of those claims originated from one of those tell-all books that you immediately discard as reliable sources. I'll try to expand with the sources you provided his impact.--GDuwenTell me! 18:01, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I think it was Peggy Sue's book. What I took on board from the speculation, is that she was not very pregnant when she miscarried. If she was two or three weeks pregnant at the start of the tour, she would be only, what, five or six weeks when she miscarried. In the 1950s, pregnancy was confirmed medically at the earliest two weeks after the last missed period, and was expensive and unreliable with a lot of false positives (usually involving the death of a rabbit or frog), and she would have missed only one period. A miscarriage at five to six weeks would be equivalent to a heavy period. So, it is unlikely a doctor would have reliably confirmed pregnancy that early, and she herself wouldn't know, as it could just have been her periods playing her up - understandable in the circumstances with her husband away. If there is a reliable source or two that says how she revealed her miscarriage, I think it may be worth looking into some neutral wording along the lines of "Maria Holly gave a statement the day after the crash in which she said she had miscarried at six weeks pregnant." I think, given the speculation and dubious nature of the circumstances, it might not be appropriate for Wikipedia to be saying she was pregnant and miscarried (as it would seem we are confirming something that has been doubted). If we report that she said it, that would be acceptable. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 17:27, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You got me there truly. I just followed the source, but what you say makes a lot of sense. Of course, I have to clarify that I'm not really acknowledged in pregnancy related topics, while less to say about the way tests were carried at that time. I'll reword it for some neutrality.--GDuwenTell me! 18:03, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think the wording can be improved. Saying "there is no independent source for this." doesn't make sense as there wouldn't have been any independent source for an at-home miscarriage. Saying she claimed a miscarriage is sufficient. Without a reasonably documented reason to question her statement, the current phrasing comes off as a little sexist given the long history of not believing women about their bodies. CarolinesCastle (talk) 21:17, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cool. There's hasn't been any work done on the article for over a week. There are some users who get concerned and will comment if a review is left open for a long time; I'm quite positive about keeping reviews open while work is taking place, but find it hard to defend keeping a GAN open when there is no progress. I do often get involved in helping out on articles I'm reviewing, but I find myself a little busy in real life, so am unable to offer any real assistance at this moment. Unless you feel you have the time and motivation to get stuck in over the next seven days, it may be best to close this as unlisted, and you can renominate at a later date when the work has been done. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 11:45, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Usually I don't abandon any nominations, but real life also had me too busy lately. Maybe it would be a good thing to leave this for now and pick it again when we both have a little more time (if you got any interest in reviewing it by then). A Buddy Holly article deserves more dedication than the one I'm able to provide right now.--GDuwenTell me! 20:02, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Real life does have an annoying habit of intruding and preventing decent work on Wikipedia, doesn't it? I'll close this now. Keep well. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 08:38, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Brunswick signed the band on March 19, 1957" is sourced at the end of the paragraph to page 131 of Prairie Nights to Neon Lights, but it doesn't appear in that book. Can you find the book that is the source of that information? SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 20:22, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's OK, I found a source. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 20:28, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There are three main sections to the article - Holly's career, his image and music style, and his legacy. There is a lot on his legacy, but very little on his image and style. While there are elements in the article which hint at or suggest why Holly was so important to the development of rock and popular music, this isn't pulled together and made explicit for the general reader. Some sources that can help in building information on why Holly was important: Not Fade Away: The Life and Music of Buddy Holly, page 69, The Telegraph, The Independent, Britannica, and AllMusic. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 16:52, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I happen to realize now that I included the links of Britannica and Allmusic, but they are mixed within the "recognitions" subsection of "Legacy". I'll get rid of the title because it's misleading and I just leave it under the main title. That also includes inductions and honors anyway. I'll ty to enrich it with the stuff from the Telegram and Guardian anyway.--GDuwenTell me! 17:28, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Fail

General comments

"In 1955, after opening for Elvis Presley, Holly decided to pursue a career in music." This is vague and unclear as he was already pursuing a career in music, as indicated by his opening for Elvis. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:45, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The phrase "decided to" is used ten times in the article. Are all of these needed? Is it the decision we are interested in or the action? For example, should it be: "[Holly] decided to visit producer Norman Petty in Clovis, New Mexico" or "[Holly] visited producer Norman Petty in Clovis, New Mexico"? In the first statement we are not sure if he visited Petty as the statement is only telling us that Holly made that decision, not that he acted on or even achieved it. That section: Holly's recording sessions were produced by Owen Bradley. Holly was unhappy with Bradley's restrictions and the results of their work, and decided to visit producer Norman Petty in Clovis, New Mexico. Attracted by the success of the records produced by Petty, Holly traveled with his band to the studio where, among other songs, they recorded a demo of "That'll Be the Day". could be made tighter: Holly recorded two unsuccessful singles with Decca, after which his contract stopped. Unsatisfied with Owen Bradley's production techniques, Holly took his band to Norman Petty's studio in Clovis, New Mexico, where, among other songs, they recorded a demo of "That'll Be the Day". SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:22, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"born ... at 3:30 pm" - do we need the time? SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:24, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"From his early childhood, his family and friends nicknamed him "Buddy"" could be "From early childhood he was nicknamed "Buddy"" SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:26, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Buddy was already into music before Elvis, but many sources attribute his opening as the act that truly convinced him to pursue a professional career (Lehmer, p.7)--GDuwenTell me! 18:01, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Replaced a bunch of "decided too's" (didn't even realized I repeated that so much). I don't think that clarifying the time he was born does any harm, neither I see it too useful. Your call there. Replaced also the nickname thing.--GDuwenTell me! 18:09, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

On hold

There's a decent amount of material been gathered here on the subject of Buddy Holly, and I think the article is close to meeting GA criteria. It would benefit from a little more work as regards the lead, the prose, and a refocus on Holly's music style, his visual image, and his general importance in the story of rock and roll. Put on hold for these issues to be addressed or discussed. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 17:08, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator has not logged in since the review has been open. Notice has been left on his talkpage, and hold extended. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 15:00, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry that I haven't replied before, I just returned from my vacations. Tomorrow I'll try go get everything done. Thanks for taking up the review.--GDuwenTell me! 20:22, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not listed

Closed as not listed. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 08:39, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]