Jump to content

Talk:Brussels Anti-Slavery Conference 1889–90

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Neutrality

[edit]

Both king Leopold II and this conference were closely linked with the genocidal politics of the Congo Free State, and anti-slavery was one of the vehicles Leopold used to cover up his crimes against humanity. Although the number of victims will never be knows exactly, estimates exist that about 50 %, i.e. 10 million inhabitants of what is now the DR Congo died under Leopold's rule. The relationship between the conference and that genocide has to be reflected. Rsk6400 (talk) 06:03, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What kind of baseless and unscientific demagoguery is this, where is your evidence apart from some rumors on the internet? All you have (You= the genocide myth people), which is not proof, is a report by a British diplomat, who is not neutral, and who never said anything about genocide, only that the Congolese were badly treated in the areas he visited, which in the northwest of the Congo, in the least populated part of the whole country, as it consists mainly of dense equatorial rainforests... The majority of the Congolese population lives in the lower parts, in BaKongo, kasaï, kivu and Katanga, areas that Casement never visited.... And a few activist writers who were paid by the Manchester chamber of commerce to discredit and vilify Leopold's efforts in Congo around the time Leopold started collecting his first taxes, and who non of them ever ever set foot in Congo in their lives... Those writings were later popularized by author Adam Hochschild, in his book: King Leopold's Ghost: A Story of Greed, Terror and Heroism in Colonial Africa, where the disinformation already begins with the title of the book, as Congo Free State was an independent state... And not a colony, Congo only became a Belgian colony in 1908.
Since the publication of the book, which is based on notes by a few activists and a biased diplomatic report by a British diplomat, and a published letter by a Civil rights activist, numerous Belgian, Congolese, British and US academics have completely debunked Leopold's obscene genocide myth. Moreover, in the recent Truth Commission commissioned by the Belgian government in response to the BLM protests of 2020, allegations of genocide were investigated and debunked by an international team of human rights experts.
literature about this subject includes:
Commision report: https://www.dekamer.be/FLWB/PDF/55/1462/55K1462002.pdf
Book from Congolese Author Marcel Yabili: The Greatest Fake News of All Time: Leopold II : the Genius and Builder King of Lumumba
Book from Congolese Author Jean-Pierre Nzeza Kabu Zex-Kongo: Léopold II Le plus grand chef d'Etat de l'histoire du Congo
Book from Belgian Author Johan Op deBeeck: Léopold II: Het hele verhaal
Book from Belgian Professor Jean Stengers: Congo: Mythes et réalités
Book from Belgian Journalist Peter Verlinden: Zwarte trots, witte schaamte?
Book from American author Andrew C. A. Jampoler: Congo, the Miserable Expeditions and Dreadful Death of Lt. Emory Taunt, USN
For now i will remove the box, as you don't have any sourced scientific data about your claim. TheRoyalTrust (talk) 01:23, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Moreover, your statement that the connection between the conference and the so called genocide needs to be reflected in this article is anything but neutral, as you seem to only want to create an emotional narrative that sort of suits your own narrow view of the world, and of history... TheRoyalTrust (talk) 01:49, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia follows mainstream scholarship (see WP:FRINGE), not what some cherry-picked authors and professors say. The article Atrocities in the Congo Free State (which has reached "Good article" level) gives a lot of WP:RS on the subject. I have to admit that the debate whether the atrocities can be called a "genocide" is open. But they surely were a crime against humanity. Rsk6400 (talk) 07:45, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The information on this page is based on academic sources, if you want to change the article, then come up with other sources, your personal opinion, is not a source, your personal opinion is an opinion. TheRoyalTrust (talk) 12:32, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Blockade

[edit]

TheRoyalTrust, I just had to delete a whole section of what you wrote last month, because the source (Jean Pirotte) doesn't support anything of that. On the other hand, the source is very clear about Leopold using the conference as "une excellente façade éthique et humanitaire". Rsk6400 (talk) 08:04, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@TheRoyalTrust: It seems you didn't see this since you reverted without replying here. Also, I don't understand why you insist on the word "However" in the lead section. I can see no contrast or contradiction between "colonial policies" and "narrow national interest". Rsk6400 (talk) 07:39, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
1. It is not because Leopold, as well as other imperial powers, saw an opportunity in the fight against the slave trade and had a double agenda, namely that by stopping the slave trade, they also stopped the influence and hold of those slave traders in that region, thus allowing the European powers to consolidate their own power and rule, that ultimately the slave trade was not eradicated... One does not exclude the other. History is not black and white. TheRoyalTrust (talk) 19:14, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
2. However difficult it is for you to see, certainly from a contemporary perspective of human rights, of modernism, and so on, colonization was seen as an upgrade at the time. The whole criticism of the humanitarian activists at the time was that the Congo free state system didn't work, and that it had to be properly colonized, by the British, the Germans or another colonial power in order for the colonized people to enjoy the full benefits of colonization.. The humanitarians of that time certainly did not advocate for more freedom in Congo Free State, or against colonization on the contrary, there was certainly a humanitarian aspect, but also certainly an imperial aspect. again it is not all black and white... And it is only after 1945, after the horrible events of the holocaust, and the founding of the united nations, and the universal declaration of human rights, that the mentality regarding colonization changed, also btw with a double agenda... TheRoyalTrust (talk) 19:38, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And your obsession with Leopold and Congo is getting a bit boring, the anti-slavery conference wasn't just about Leopold and Congo, it was about anti-slavery policies across the African continent and even the Middle East were Slavery for example was still legal, and second, you seem to think that the other imperial powers of the time were holy virgins, do you think they had no serious abuses or double agendas? Or do you think that the people who controlled Congo, and Africa before the Europeans came were any better? Let me remind you that the West of Congo was a major hub for the trans-Atlantic slave trade, that for over 300 years, with the help of local Congolese Kingdoms, some 5.7 million Congolese slaves were shipped from, to the New World, by Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch, French, American, and British slave traders in horrendous conditions, and that in the East of Congo, Tippu Tip, just one of the many East African ivory and slave traders was said to personally own more then 10.000 Congolese slaves, not to mention the Bantu expansion, the Pygmy slavery, or the enslavement of the Hutu's by the Tutsi's in the kingdom of Rwanda since the 15th century, so please try to get out of your Anachronistic bubble, and be more nuanced, thanks. TheRoyalTrust (talk) 20:28, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that the source doesn't speak of the things mentioned in the section Brussels_Anti-Slavery_Conference_1889–90#Leading_up_to_the_conference: There is no "Arabo-Swahili power" nor is there anything about the "Arabo-Swahili blockade" in the source you gave. in order for the colonized people to enjoy the full benefits of colonization - that explains a lot. Rsk6400 (talk) 07:54, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it explains alot, we are not living in your fantasy world. And it is in the source, you just did not read it. TheRoyalTrust (talk) 12:23, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
1. The same authors you quote, about your genocide story in Congo, are the same who advocated for more colonialism for Congo.
2. Arabo-Swahili is the correct name for the Arabized Africans of that region, they were called Arabs at the time but in fact they were East Africans, Swahili speakers, who had been arabized and islamized. TheRoyalTrust (talk) 12:32, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Page 11 and 12:
"De preektocht van Lavigerie riep niet alleen een particuliere antislavernij-beweging in het leven, maar had ook een gevolg op het officiële, diplomatieke vlak: de antislavernij-conferentie van Brussel. Eigenlijk herhaalde Lavigerie slechts wat anderen, missionarissen en explorators, voor hem al hadden gezegd. Maar Lavigeries optreden kwam op het juiste ogenblik. De Europese kolonisatie van Oost- en Centraal-Afrika stelde nl. een aantal problemen, meer bepaald met de Arabische macht. Een duidelijke illustratie daarvan was de Arabische opstand die leidde tot de blokkade van de Afrikaanse oostkust door Duitsland en Engeland."
In English:
"Lavigerie's preaching tour not only gave birth to a particular anti-slavery movement, but also had an official, diplomatic consequence: the Brussels Anti-Slavery Conference. In fact, Lavigerie was merely repeating what others, missionaries and explorers, had already said before him. But Lavigerie's performance came at the right time. The European colonization of East and Central Africa posed a number of problems, in particular with the Arab power. A clear illustration of this was the Arab revolt that led to the blockade of the African east coast by Germany and England."
So Stop removing it! TheRoyalTrust (talk) 12:46, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
in order for the colonized people to enjoy the full benefits of colonization
Given the choice to live in constant fear of being raided by a slavers army, who would enslave man, children and woman, and kill everyone else who were not fit for work, such as babies and the elderly, and burn down your village. Or a system that might have been oppressive and racist, but that gave you medical care, antenatal care, education, law and order, and in which the oppressors would actually pay you for your work, and not enslave you, the choice was easily made, a choice that you will never have to make, but they did. And no, this does not apply to Congo Free State, certainly not the territories in the North-West in which the abuses took place, namely the Abir (Anglo-Belgian India Rubber Company) concession and the crown domain, but Congo Free State was not a colony, it was an independent state under absolute rule, administered by a bunch of freelancers from all over the world. Also to bring Congo back to its previous state would be inhumane as this would give free hand again to the slave traders. Therefore Colonization by a European power, who would provide all those things, and who would spread European civilization instead, was the most humane thing to do, at the time. TheRoyalTrust (talk) 13:23, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@TheRoyalTrust: Did you realize that this whole discussion was caused by your error ? You obviously wanted the text by Luc Chatelet to be the reference, but instead you referenced the section to Jean Pirotte. A lot of off-topic discussion (see WP:NOTFORUM) and a lot of aggressive language from your part, because you [sic] got confused with your sources. Rsk6400 (talk) 06:01, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies if i came across aggressively, as for the source, i have no idea what you are talking about. TheRoyalTrust (talk) 10:59, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I corrected the source in this edit. Before that, there was a reference to Jean Pirotte, but the section was in fact based on Luc Chatelet. Rsk6400 (talk) 12:24, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your are indeed right about the source, thanks for correcting it. TheRoyalTrust (talk) 00:01, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fringe

[edit]

Marcel Yabili refers to the the Convention Relative to the Slave Trade and Importation into Africa of Firearms, Ammunition, and Spiritous Liquors (The powers declare that the most effective means of counteracting the slave-trade in the interior of Africa are the following: 1. Progressive organization of the administrative, judicial, religious, and military services in the African territories placed under the sovereignty or protectorate of civilized nations. 2. The gradual establishment in the interior, by the powers to which the territories are subject, of strongly occupied stations, in such a way as to make their protective or repressive action effectively felt in the territories devastated by slave hunting. 3. The construction of roads, and in particular of railways, connecting the advanced stations with the coast, and permitting easy access to the inland waters, and to such of the upper courses of the rivers and streams as are broken by rapids and cataracts, with a view to substituting economical and rapid means of transportation for the present system of carriage by men. 4. Establishment of steam-boats on the inland navigable waters and on the lakes, supported by fortified posts established on the banks. 5. Establishment of telegraphic lines, insuring the communication of the posts and stations with the coast and with the administrative centres. 6. Organization of expeditions and flying columns, to keep up the communication of the stations with each other and with the coast, to support repressive action, and to insure the security of high roads. 7. Restriction of the importation of fire-arms, at least of those of modern pattern, and of ammunition throughout the entire extent of the territory in which the slave-trade is carried on. And Chapter III. Repression of the Slave-trade by Sea, Section I. General provisions, Article XX, The signatory powers recognize the desirability of taking steps in common for the more effective repression of the slave-trade in the maritime zone in which it still exists.) strengthening the Berlin Act, Article 6, which states that: All the Powers exercising sovereign rights or influence in the aforesaid territories bind themselves to watch over the preservation of the native tribes, and to care for the improvement of the conditions of their moral and material well-being, and to help in suppressing slavery, and especially the slave trade. They shall, without distinction of creed or nation, protect and favour all religious, scientific or charitable institutions and undertakings created and organized for the above ends, or which aim at instructing the natives and bringing home to them the blessings of civilization. Christian missionaries, scientists and explorers, with their followers, property and collections, shall likewise be the objects of especial protection. Freedom of conscience and religious toleration are expressly guaranteed to the natives, no less than to subjects and to foreigners. The free and public exercise of all forms of divine worship, and the right to build edifices for religious purposes, and to organize religious missions belonging to all creeds, shall not be limited or fettered in any way whatsoever.

A certain user keeps removing sourced information not based on sources and facts, but based on his own personal emotional opinion. User personal page, is full of activist rhetoric, and is clearly not approaching this project from facts/sourced based position, but rather from a sentimental opinionated position, user is very disruptive, and i am getting very tired of correcting stealth edits by user. I warned user before that i would report him, if he does not stop with this disruptive behavior, i don't want to do it, but i will if i have to. TheRoyalTrust (talk) 11:42, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I note that the humanitarian activists such as George Washington Williams, E.D. Morel and Roger Casement, who later denounced Leopold's policies in the international press, and in so doing brought down Leopold's rule in the Free State: did this on the bases of this very same treaties:
George Washington Williams: declared in his open letter to Leopold II i quote: Your Majesty’s Gouvernment has violated the General Act of the Conference of Berlin by firing upon native canoes; by confiscating the property of natives; by intimidating native traders, and preventing them from trading with white trading companies; by quartering troops in native villages when there is no war; by causing vessels bound from ,Stanley- Pool” to ,Stanley-Falls”, to break their journey and leave the Congo, ascend the Aruhwimi river to Basoko, to be visited and show their papers; by forbidding a mission steamer to fly its national flag without permission from a local Government; by permitting the natives to carry on the slave-trade, and by engaging in the wholesale and retail slave-trade itself.
E. D. Morel: in his pamphlet:The Congo Slave State: A Protest Against the New African Slavery makes an appeal to the people of the civilized world, whose representatives signed the Berlin Act of 1885, and the Brussels Act of 1890, to unite in putting pressure upon their respective Governments to take the territories known as the Congo State out of the hands of King Leopold II, now dictator over a million square miles in Africa, inhabited by twenty million negroes; and by such measures as may be decided upon at a new Conference, to ensure that the provisions of the Berlin and Brussels Acts shall be effectively carried out in those territories.
Roger Casement: in the later famous Casement Report: His Majesty’s Government have every confidence that an investigation of this character will be followed by the redress of any grievances or actual wrongs which may be proved to exist, and that if the present administrative system should be found to provide no adequate security against the abuse of power by those who are employed by the State, or by the Companies over which the State has control, the necessary steps will be taken to remedy these grave defects. His Majesty’s Government have been actuated in this matter by no other motive than a desire to arrive at the truth, and to fulfil the obligation which is incumbent upon all the Powers who were parties to the Berlin Act, “to watch, so far as each may be able, over the preservation of the native tribes, and to care for the improvement of the conditions of their moral and material well-being.” They are, therefore, glad to observe that the notes do not indorse the regrettable and unfounded insinuation contained in M. de Cuvelier’s communication of the 17th September, 1903, that the interests of humanity have been used in this country as a pretext to conceal designs for the abolition and partition of the Congo State.
These are also the three main sources and actors for: Adam Hochschild's 1998 book: King Leopold's ghost: a story of greed, terror, and heroism in Colonial Africa. on which most of the current public knowledge is based. TheRoyalTrust (talk) 12:21, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Human rights activists of the time invoked the Berlin Act and the Brussels Convention to denounce Leopold's rule and the private concession system in favour of MORE Colonialism in accordance with the Berlin and Brussels Acts, which guaranteed the abolition of the slave trade and the preservation, care and improvement of the conditions of the moral and material well-being of indigenous tribes. They were in no way opposed to colonialism. TheRoyalTrust (talk) 12:32, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please use correct indentation, see WP:INDENT. Also please respect the talk page guidelines, WP:TPG, and be concise. Yabili is a lawyer [sic] who wants to present the history of Congo in a totally new light - that's certainly not mainstream. But before you revert again, please read WP:NOCONSENSUS, which basically says that you have to reach consensus here before repeating your changes. I think we can call the version of the lead of 22:30, 18 March 2023 (which was your version, not mine) the stable version, i.e. the version "prior to the ... bold edit" in the words of WP:NOCONSENSUS. Rsk6400 (talk) 13:31, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yabili is a well known Congolese lawyer, and published author, who has appeared in several media outlets in Africa and in Europe, who runs a historical museum in his hometown of Lubumbashi, he is involved with several projects in Congo and in Belgium, he is not a fringe actor as you are trying to paint him. As for consensus you always keep talking about... then what is the consensus according to you? your opinion? I have provided multiple sources, from various periods in history, and from different points of views, and all of them claim the same things... But you decide to dismiss all of them, while not providing a contrary source, only your personal opinion, nothing else... TheRoyalTrust (talk) 14:21, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Congo Free State

[edit]

Dear IP from the wonderful city of Ghent, I added a section on Leopold's connection with the Congo Free State because Leopold did not only host the conference, but was also highly interested in the region the conference primarily dealt with: the Congo basin. You removed that section three times without adequately explaining why. You should also explain why you called a section that is carefully based on good sources "propaganda". If you have an account and were editing while logged out, you should read the rules that apply in those cases, see WP:EWLO. Rsk6400 (talk) 14:54, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Then you should also ad texts of all the European powers, including the Ottoman empire, India and every other country that was involved with the east African and Indian ocean slave trade, because this was an international conference, about slavery, and not a conference about Congo or Leopold II, it was organised in Brussels, because Belgium was a neutral country, stop the framing and making this about Leopold and Congo! It was an INTERNATIONAL event. TheRoyalTrust (talk) 05:27, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Are you really a Monk? Maybe i should email your monastery, to see if you are really, who you claim you are. TheRoyalTrust (talk) 05:30, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do you speak French, probably not, this interview about the East African Slave trade, talks about Lavigerie, and the first missionaries in Tanzania, expolrers, the colonization, in an effort to stop the slave trade, and so on, but it's by a black Senegalese scholar, and i know you prefer white academics from Europe and America, so its probably not interesting for you, you should still watch it anyway, and also read his book, its called the veiled genocide, it sheds a different non-Eurocentric light on the history of Africa.
Interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqXEylmhl6Q
Book: https://www.amazon.com/Le-g%C3%A9nocide-voil%C3%A9-Enqu%C3%AAte-historique/dp/207271849X TheRoyalTrust (talk) 05:37, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And to finish, you should perhaps read this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Libel
It states:
The goal of Wikipedia is to create an encyclopedic information source adhering to a neutral point of view, with referenced information through the citation of reliable published sources, so as to maintain a standard of verifiability. It is the responsibility of all contributors to ensure that the material posted on Wikipedia is not defamatory. It is a Wikipedia policy to immediately delete libelous material when it has been identified. Page revisions containing libelous content should also be removed from the page history. Libelous material (otherwise known as defamation) is reasonably likely to damage a person or company's reputation and could expose Wikipedia to legal consequences. TheRoyalTrust (talk) 05:42, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@TheRoyalTrust: Could you please tell me whether you are the IP editor who removed the section on Leopold some days before ? Rsk6400 (talk) 08:22, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brussels_Anti-Slavery_Conference_1889–90&oldid=1206462070"