Talk:Bructeri

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[Untitled]

Why is "The best place to find archival documents and history of the tribe [...] Soest, Germany"? References? Or at least explanations? BM--212.11.57.178 (talk) 20:47, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Old English version

@Srnec thanks for correcting the Old English form to match Bede, but there is still a complication. Actually Bede's own Latin version Boructuari, also has the -wari suffix. So this is technically a different word, which follows the pattern of many other names in Roman times, such as Chatti v. Chattuari, or Boii v. Baiuari. Is it really true that scholars see the later term ending with -wari as the SAME word, referring to the SAME people? My own understanding is that scholars think this might be a new term for a people living in the district where the Bructeri used to live? OTOH I do agree that anyone searching Bede's term should come to this article (at least for now) but maybe they shouldn't simply be given as a name variant? I am posting here because I can't think of a neat solution. This is not only a question about the lead, but also about what should be in the article. FWIW the Reallexikon der Germanischen Altertumskunde article has three parts with 3 authors. Each mentions this point:

Neumann, on the name, refers to: "der jüngere Stammesname Boructuarii (bei Beda)"
Petrikovits, on the history: "Die Lippe-B., die Boructuarii, im Gau Borahtra teilten die Geschicke der Bewohner des rechten Niederrheins, bis sie um 694/95 von den Sachsen unterworfen wurden"
Von Uslar, on the archaeology writes: "Der spätere Gau Borahtra - vgl. oben - liegt innerhalb dieses Bereiches, den man methodisch zwar nicht ohne weiteres mit den B. identifizieren möchte, an dem sie aber jedenfalls Anteil haben."

Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:33, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was going based off of the scholars cited in the article. If Pohl calls it a classical allusion, then he thinks Boructuari refers to Bructeri. Wood seems to be equating the Boructuari with the Bricteri. Anyways, that was why I restored it (corrected). Digging deeper, the article does not say so, but the 690 event is recorded by Bede. Wood says "Bructeri", but the source he is reading says "Boructuari", so he is certainly equating. Srnec (talk) 20:09, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, but I've come to see that there is no certainty or consensus when you look at more sources. Also, it is in reality a different name, not an Old English translation. (There is also a Latin version of that name, which I guess is Bede's original?)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 06:50, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The OE is a translation of Bede's Latin. I'm no linguist, but I find the juxtaposition of Boructuari and Borahtra in the source you quote interesting, since they both have an intrusive -o- but only the former has the -u-, relative to Bructeri. A little more digging and I find the Borthari in a letter of Pope Gregory III from about 738. According to John-Henry Clay, In the Shadow of Death: Saint Boniface and the Conversion of Hessia, 721–54 (Brepols, 2010), p. 198: "A general consensus has long been reached that the Borthari are to be equated with the Boructuari of Bede and with the Brukterer, a group who in early medieval charters inhabited the region of the upper Saale to the north-west of Hessia, beyond the river Diemel." I do not know what "Brukterer ... in early medieval charters" refers to, but Clay refers to the Bructeri of Tacitus on p. 157: "If they can be equated with the Bructeri of Tacitus and the Borthari of Pope Gregory III, the Boructuari lived to the north-west of Hessia along the river Lippe."

I have added some info on the Borthari and re-sectioned the article. I think we need all this in one article, however we present it. Srnec (talk) 00:51, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but obviously not all experts see it so simply, as per my quotes above. I agree it needs to be handled here. It can still be included in the lead somehow. My only small question is about whether we should simply call it an Old English translation. I suggest a wording which leaves the connection a little little more open. The Boructuari seem to be the successors of the Bructeri so to speak. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:46, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]