Talk:Brothers of Penitence

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This seems to cover the same order as Bonhommes Saga City 07:06, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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House of the order in Rye, Sussex

During a recent visit to that town in Sussex, an ancient looking house was pointed out on the audio tour I was benefiting from as being originally built by that order, but it was suppressed in 1307 by the Pope because it was a mixed community of men and women which was perceived as immoral. This contradicts almost all the content of the article!

Note that the idea that the house was of the order is endorsed by government website

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1044296

as well as this 19th century book

https://archive.british-history.ac.uk/vch/sussex/vol2/pp96-97

and Wikipedia itself records that there was a house was in Rye

List of monastic houses in East Sussex

which also offers English Heritage as its source.

https://archive.ph/20120713061219/http://pastscape.english-heritage.org.uk/hob.aspx?hob_id=1322371

The difference in history between the 'Friars of the Sack' and the Augustinian order which survived in England until Henry VIII's dissolution of the monasteries suggests that the identification of the two may be a mistake.

This overview of the order may be illuminating; note the reference to it disappearing during the 13th century

https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/sack-friars Ender's Shadow Snr (talk) 09:37, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Andrews, Frances. “The Friars of the Penitence of Jesus Christ, or Sack Friars.” The Other Friars: The Carmelite, Augustinian, Sack and Pied, vol. 2, Boydell & Brewer, 2006, pp. 175–223. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7722/j.ctt3fgn3n.16. Accessed 17 May 2024. p.184 includes Rye as a location of a house. However it appears to shoot down the idea that the order was mixed - men and women:

Like numerous male orders, the friars rejected from the outset any responsibility for religious women, the cura monialium. Their constitutions specifically forbade them to look after congregations of nuns or to accept them as

professed members of the order. In a chapter which is a combination of provisions instituted in other orders, but original as drafted here, the legislators also instructed that women were not to be admitted to the cloister, workshop

or oratory of the friars except to attend the consecration of a church or on Good Friday.

p.190

The order was a victim of the ban of the Council of Lyons in 1274 of all orders founded after 1215, 'some contemporaries clearly thought the decree was aimed mainly at the Sack Friars: the Annals of Dunstable, for example, reported that ‘many orders were prohibited’, but named only the Sack Friars.' 'Annals of Dunstable’, ed. R. Pauli, MGH SS XXVII (Hannover, 1885), p. 512; Chettle, ‘The Friars of the Sack in England’, pp. 239 and 255.' p.208

Such orders were banned from recruiting new members, being condemned to long term extinction. In this context the sale of the house in Rye to a lay person in 1306 is more likely caused by its desertion by the order - through death or consolidation to other locations - than the claim they were suppressed by the Pope in 1306. Ender's Shadow Snr (talk) 10:15, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]