Talk:British rock and roll

Exposed to American culture

I don't understand the line "had been exposed to American culture through the stationing of American troops in the country". How did troops in bases expose Britain to American culture? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.175.173.64 (talk) 05:05, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

You don't understand how meeting people from a different culture would expose you to that culture?--SabreBD (talk) 15:21, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

The troops fraternised widely. They introduced many Britons directly to African-American - and other American - culture, through records, books, radio and personal contacts. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:53, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Inferior British Rock 'n' Roll?

What's with the line "It has generally been considered inferior to the American version of the genre, and made little international or lasting impact"?. Some of the biggest rock 'n' roll bands have been British. That seems much too biased, rather than factual, or where is the citation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:aa10:e280:3800:1044:a3ce:f4f0:5435 (talk) 19:29, 26 June 2018

As the opening sentence of the article makes clear, this article is about "a style of popular music... which emerged in the late 1950s and was popular until the arrival of beat music in 1962" - and not about beat music or British rock music, which came later. Wikipedia articles differentiate between rock and roll (1950s, essentially) and rock music (1960s and later) - though many sources, and indeed some musicians, tend to confuse the issue by using both terms interchangeably. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:16, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Grease (musical)

Hello, I have amended the 'Decline and revivals' bit as it was still a bit in that inferior tone of voice...and so added some links to the Top Ten hits positions (see below)...however is Grease the Musical something that needs to be added as one of the reason for its revival? There was a production of the musical in London 1973 and obviously the film came out towards the end of the 1970s...so might be culturally important in this respect? (On the other hand it could just be that '20 year' revival thing)

"Decline and revivals"

"British rock and roll declined sharply in the face of the new beat music after 1962. While some of the most successful acts, most notably Cliff Richard, were able to hang on to positions in the chart, British rock and roll virtually disappeared from the chart, as beat and then R&B based groups began to dominate. Many British rock and rollers continued their careers, and occasional bands specialised in the form, but mainstream success for the genre was rare.

There have been periodic revivals of British rock and roll, with a successful revival starting in the mid 1970s, that saw highly nostalgic pop acts like Showaddywaddy and Alvin Stardust (who, as Shane Fenton, had enjoyed chart success in the early 1960s), enjoy a number of Top Ten hits in the UK Charts. These acts would be joined in the charts and on Top Of The Pops by a number of other retro acts in the late 1970s, like Darts and Matchbox, some more influenced by Doo-wop others more Rockabilly.

Even though a lot of these acts would by superseded in the charts by New Pop trends such as the New Romantic movement (with Showaddywaddy's last Top 40 hit being in 1982), the revival still managed to be a chart force in the 1980s due to Shakin' Stevens (with a few hits for Alvin Stardust as well). Shaky would go on to become the UK's 'most successful singles chart act of the 1980s' by promoting his rock and roll records on various Children's TV shows such as The Basil Brush Show and Razzmatazz, therefore being promoted to a large audience interested in pop but an audience more likely to be reading Look-in than the NME. However, since then a wider revival has been elusive."

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.172.230 (talk • contribs) 15:43, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

References

There's no good reason to mention Grease specifically - there have been plenty of other R&R revival acts and shows both before and since then - unless you can find sources that specifically mention Grease. Thanks for your edit, but it will need quite a lot of re-editing to meet standards of encyclopedia prose - no "Shaky", for instance - and to trim out tangential material. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:10, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Well I added references to Doo-wop and Rockabilly for those acts, because some pedants would have probably said that's what those acts are, however if this rock n roll revival and rockabilly are the same thing/scene - then today on the Guardian's Shaky article there is mention of a "Great British Rockabilly Revival" from the same era which may be something to look into...

"The Great British Rockabilly Revival helped. He [Shaky] was in the mix along with The Jets; who could forget 'Yes Tonight Josephine'! The Polecats - 'Make A Circuit With Me'. Matchbox's iconic anthem 'Rockabilly Rebel' are a few that spring to mind. Then of course you had Tenpole Tudor, The Stray Cats and Dave Edmunds all somewhat in a different league. It wasn't like Shaky was standing alone as an outrider in the charts of the day". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.172.230 (talk) 18:01, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Si Cranstoun

Si Cranstoun (recomended in the comments section) had a Top 30 hit with his album "Modern Life" in 2014 and described himself as "Motown Soul fused with Rock 'n' Roll"...would he be someone of interest or too soul sounding? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.172.230 (talk) 18:16, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

References

No. What "comments section"? This article is about "a style of popular music... which emerged in the late 1950s and was popular until the arrival of beat music in 1962" - no need to mention every British revivalist musician who has in later years claimed to be playing something in that style. Ghmyrtle (talk) 06:51, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Sorry I don't want to be rude, but if 'British rock and roll' was around for only a few years and in the end was a "second-class product" making "little impact" not only on the American market, but also here in Britain (with acts being 'almost unknown' and of limited significance)...then why have you spent so much of your time bothering with it? why does it have its own article in the first place? Shouldn't it go in a sub-genres bin (alongside Wonky pop et al) with the information just contained under Rock and roll, where there is already a largish section devoted to it?

On the other hand if people are going to make articles about every microgenre that has been in existence since the birth of the teenager, than maybe the 'British rock and roll revival' should have an article of its own...it was very popular in the late 1970s/early 80s whether you bothered to buy the records or not, whether it was due to the '15/20 year revival rule', the 'number 7', the death of Elvis, Grease or Happy Days (see I Love 1978 and I Love 1975 for further details in regards to the last two). I don't know if you watched TOTP from around this time (on BBC Four or back in the day), but there was much more revival stuff turning up on that show than any UKTV Yesterday/BBC Four compilation would have it. I suppose it was because of the usual critical opinion (generally from that kind of male rock critic) that had been focused on elevating Alternative Music to such a high cultural status...that these acts were brushed under the carpet (along with cheesy disco acts and all the pub rockers). That's why that the revival section needs to be expanded and examined a bit more...not just something tagged on and brushed over.

In regards to "comments section" and Shaky...you have obviously not bothered reading the article from The Guardian where the info originally came from, as it seems you don't care about 80s music whatsoever. This article was an interview with Shakin' Stevens by Michael Hann under the headline 'I was over the moon playing Elvis. The first time I got a regular wage'...

The article points out..

"Revisiting rock’n’roll was already a big business. Showaddywaddy were still a big singles group when Stevens was signed. Darts and Matchbox were having hits. But almost all the other groups carried with them the whiff of the gig circuit they had shared with the Sunsets: sideburns and wrinkles, smoky clubs and Bedford vans. (“When we used to travel around in the van and couldn’t afford hotels or anything like that, we used to do the gig and then grab some chips and sleep in the back of the van. When you wake up in the morning, it’s not a pretty sight.”) But Shakin’ Stevens was different: although already past 30 when Hot Dog became a hit, he was good-looking, had a voice that really didn’t sound a million miles from Elvis, and didn’t have the air of someone who was longing for a punch-up after closing time.

Britain, in large part thanks to kids’ TV, seized him to its collective heart. If there was a TV show, Stevens would be on it: in 1980 alone he appeared on Oh Boy! (revived by Jack Good, the impresario behind the Elvis musical), Top of the Pops, The Russell Harty Show, The Entertainers, Multi-Coloured Swap Shop, Calendar Goes Pop (on which he attacked the young host, Richard Madeley), The Basil Brush Show, and more. The following year he added Jim’ll Fix It, The Little and Large Show, Rolf’s Here! OK?, Razzmatazz, Seaside Special plus scores of repeat visits to TOTP, Cheggers and Swap Shop. Later on there was The Visit, where he visited a young fan in hospital, in an effort to help her from her coma".

So some people may think...how did Shaky 'most successful singles chart act of the 1980s?' especially when the 'general opinion' seems to be that Shaky is a bit shit...one of the most awful cheesy artists ever to have a hit in the UK, the type of artist (like Slade and Wizzard) who is only acceptable at Christmas, the type of artist who would be a special guest if André Rieu played Bangor, a human Womble.

As The Guardian said it was "largely thanks to kids’ TV" (and other family friendly shows)...which was the important point you took out (I agree it wasn't the best written but you can't just cut and paste from The Guardian can you) with Shaky becoming like the 80s answer to Mr Tumble, a tween popstar before the idea of tween was invented (and amazingly a popstar who was 'really really old' at the point).

It is telling that the 'most successful singles chart act of the 1980s?' has been largely ignored by Classic Pop Magazine, with Shaky not getting the main cover so far (from all the issues I have to hand I cannot see him on there) and with Trailblazers: 80s Pop on Sky Arts, a programme with the following synopsis "Noddy Holder narrates a look at the combination of personalities and events that gave rise to the pop party music of the 1980s"...which in fact was a show mainly about three pop geniuses called Stock Aitken Waterman. In fact if you see the whole of the Trailblazers series a British show largely about music genres in the period 1960-1990 but especially about the 1980s, then you see...

• S1-E1 Trailblazers: Disco
• S1-E2 Trailblazers: Glam Rock
• S1-E3 Trailblazers: Two Tone
• S1-E4 Trailblazers: Funk
• S1-E5 Trailblazers: Punk
• S1-E6 Trailblazers: Nuclear Protest
• S1-E7 Trailblazers: Acid House
• S1-E8 Trailblazers: 80s Pop
• S1-E9 Trailblazers: Progressive Rock
• S1-E10 Trailblazers: Electronic Music
• S1-E11 Trailblazers: Madchester
• S1-E12 Trailblazers: Gothic Rock
• S1-E13 Trailblazers: Pop Videos
• S1-E14 Trailblazers: Conscience Songs
• S1-E15 Trailblazers: Heavy Metal
• S1-E16 Trailblazers: New Romantics
• S1-E17 Trailblazers: Pop Radio
• S1-E18 Trailblazers: Pub Rock
• S1-E19 Trailblazers: Dance

...it seems that the British rock and roll (or at least the popular revival) was not deemed worthy of interest to anyone (though it would be of interest to me)...and this from an era (2016) when Pub Rock, Disco and Prog were 'brought in from the cold' and were being reappraised as genres that were actually quite good. #JusticeforShaky if you must!

[Note: BBC Four had a documentary series called 50s Britannia with the first part being a documentary called 'Rock 'n' Roll Britannia':

"Long before the Beatles there was British rock 'n' roll. Between 1956 and 1960 British youth created a unique copy of a distant and scarce American original whilst most parents, professional jazz men and even the BBC did their level best to snuff it out. From its first faltering steps as a facsimile of Bill Haley's swing style to the sophistication of self-penned landmarks such as Shakin' All Over and The Sound of Fury, this is the story of how the likes of Lord Rockingham's XI, Vince Taylor and Cliff Richard and The Shadows laid the foundations for an enduring 50-year culture of rock 'n' roll. Now well into their seventies, the flame still burns strong in the hearts of the original young ones. Featuring Sir Cliff Richard, Marty Wilde, Joe Brown, Bruce Welch, Cherry Wainer and The Quarrymen".

...with the second episode being Trad Jazz Britannia. Compare and contrast this with the amount of airtime given over to, say Alternative music scenes of the late 70s and 1980s e.g. "More Punk and New Wave Compiled by Annie Nightingale" or the Bee Gees who were even on last night on Sky Arts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.172.230 (talk • contribs) 14:47, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

References

Oh, that "Comments section". That's just an individual's personal opinions, which can be ignored. If you want to add aspects of the Guardian interview to the Shakin' Stevens article, that may be OK, but it's not especially relevant to this article, which is specifically about the music of the late 50s. It rightly mentions the revivalists, but there's no need to bloat the article by giving them undue emphasis. And please remember to "sign" your talk page comments by using four of this symbol: ~ thus ~~~~. Thanks. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:04, 19 November 2020 (UTC)