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Archive 1Archive 2

BN(O)

I know I changed it -- take a look at this Google search for examples of the official abbreviation. The full name -- British National (Overseas) -- and its abbreviation -- BN(O) -- both do have the brackets. The URL should reveal that. I've also seen it in the British High Commission, Wellington.

It would be good to have a section on giving up UK citizenship. Mark Richards 22:42, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, the official abbreviation is BN(O). But most people in Hong Kong just refer the passport as BNO, for simplicity's sake.

Question

It is written: "The law on nationality was spread across many statutes, and much of it was unwritten. "

To me, statutes implies written. This contradicts the ending phrase. [2004.12.31 - JPiper]

Seems to make sense to (the law student in) me -- the law on nationality was spread across many statutes, but it wasn't exclusively contained in statute, being augmented by precedents handed down by the courts over the years -- is what I'd take from it. It could also, I suppose, be referring to the practice and internal rules of the Home Office etc. --Killiedaft 22:27, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

BN(O)

I have married with a man who holder british passport and i came to England from 1998. Now i have a boy who has born in London on 29 December 1999. he has gotten Britsh Passport. and also i have indefinitely resident on my passport. but i left England Jan 2000 and i return to my country. ofcourse I back to England November 2002 and return to my country because of my family. I divorced from my husband and my son liveing with me . I have a question that how can i apply for British passport?

If I understand this correctly, you no longer live in the UK. If this is correct you will not be able to meet the residence creiteria to register as a British Citizen. However, if you are a BNO you do not lose your residence rights no matter how long you stay outside the UK. Spartaz 10:39, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Electress Sophia of Hanover

While descent from the Electress Sophia may give rise to a claim to British nationality, it's primarily as a British Overseas citizen. Hence information on this section of the law has been mentioned in "Other Categories of British nationality". The origin of the law is explained in full in History of British nationality law

It's currently duplicated in the British citizenship section and I don't think it belongs there. JAJ 01:05, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

  • It is still a part of British nationality law, and will continue to allow claims for sometime to come. There is no reason why it should not be mentioned here. Astrotrain 15:38, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
However that part of the article deals with British *citizenship*. Electress Sophia claims would generally give rise to British Overseas citizenship, hence it's mentioned lower down in the article. With a link to the article explaining the historic provisions. I'm not suggesting the information be removed entirely, just that it's not in the right place. JAJ 22:22, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you were suggesting removal completely of the section. Agree should be in that area instead. Astrotrain 18:14, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
It's not a part of British nationality law any more, as the Sophia Naturalisation Act was repealed by the British Nationality Act _1948_, i.e. it is pre-1949 nationality law. Given that we are now onto the 1981 Act, and have relegated the detail of most of the pre-1983 provisions to the History of British nationality law article, the Sophia Naturalisation Act really belongs with the pre-1949 stuff there.
Of course, there will be some people still living who are BOCs because of it, but that will apply equally to any pure-1949 provision until say 2049, and there may be two or three further Nationality Acts by then. I have no problem with mentioning the Act in this article and referring readers to the History article for more information, but to put this into context, there will be far far more people alive who were affected by, say, the British Nationality Act 1965, than the handful of descendants of Sophia who may have qualified before 1949, but we don't deal with the 1965 Act in this article either. Andrew Yong 09:22, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


By way of background, because British nationality law is so complex, in order to keep the article to a manageable size, detailed explanation of issues that relate to pre-1983/1949, or to categories other than British citizenship, were moved a few months ago to separate articles. A brief summary with a reference is usually left on the main page (because these can still affect the status of people today). There's already a note about Electress Sophia on the main page, under "Acquisition of Other Categories of British nationality":
"Eligible descendants from the Electress Sophia of Hanover may hold British Overseas citizenship based on their status as British subjects before 1949. Where such a person acquired a right of abode in the UK before 1983, it is possible for British citizenship to have been acquired. See also History of British nationality law" JAJ 02:36, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Small clarity suggestion

In Citizenship by descent from 1983:

"In exceptional cases, the Home Secretary may register a child of British parents by descent as a British citizen under discretionary provisions, for example if the child is stateless."

I find this sentence a bit ambiguous, or at least clumsy. Would "...may register a child of parents who are British by descent as a British..." be a better way to phrase it? --Bigbluefish 10:39, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Life in the UK

Does anyone have details of the citizenship test? It is based on a book called "Life in the UK", but I can't find it on the web. Seabhcán 10:39, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Try the Life in the UK Test website JAJ 12:26, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Naturalisation in the Channel Islands and Isle of Man

I've removed the comment (at least for now) "and is at the discretion of the Lieutenant Governor".

This is in the context of an exemption from the "Life in the UK Test" before 1 May 2006. I don't think the Lt Governor has discretion over this exemption, is there any reference otherwise?

As far as the naturalisation decision itself is concerned, naturalisation in the Channel Islands and IOM is at the discretion of the respective Lt Governor, just as naturalisation in the UK is at the discretion of the Home Secretary.

However, in the UK the discretion on naturalisation must be exercised in accordance with policy and since the Lt Governor's discretion on naturalisation is delegated from the Home Secretary, the same requirements ought to apply.

In the UK proper, naturalisation will not normally be refused if the statutory requirements are met, is it the same in the Channel Islands and Isle of Man? JAJ 18:57, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Citizenship and nationality

Hi there,

I have attended my Citizenship Ceremony today, and I have thus acquired British Citizenship. I have a question for you.

The sheet entitled "Some Information for British Nationals", enclosed in the pack with the Certificate of Naturalisation, reads: "You now have the nationality shown on the enclosed certificate." However, I can see no mention of my acquired nationality on said certificate. I can only see that I have acquired British Citizenship.

According to the publication "Life in the United Kingdom - A journey to Citizenship" by the Home Office (in particular I refer you to page 17), Citizenship and Nationality are technically two separate things, although that section fails to provide clear definitions, and it certainly does not answer my question: What is my acquired nationality? I understand that I am now a British citizen, but am I an English national? Or am I a Welsh national? Scottish? Do I get to choose? If not, what is this based on?

(Please note my query is not about dual citizenship, on which I am clear.)

Thank you very much.

There is no such thing as an "English", "Scottish", "Welsh" or "Northern Irish" status. All British citizens have the same status in the United Kingdom, irrespective of what part of the United Kingdom they come from. In the Crown Dependencies (Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man) it's different and you do need an additional 'local status' as well as British citizenship to be able to access full housing and employment rights.
In the United Kingdom, citizenship and nationality are not the same, that's because it's because it's possible to be a "British national" without being a "British citizen" - for example, if you are a British Overseas citizen or British subject JAJ 12:55, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Your certificate says "You now have the nationality shown on the enclosed certificate", which as JAJ notes above is that of "British citizen" (as opposed to one of the other types of British nationality). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.85.147 (talk) 01:30, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

British citizenship from grandparents

Can you acquire British citizenship by descent from your grandparents? Let's say both of your father's parents were British citizens (and passport-holders) up until their deaths - wouldn't that make your father automatically a British citizen, and therefore you too, or does it "run out" if never taken advantage of by your father (e.g. he never applied for or held a British passport)? The article doesn't seem to answer this question, it only says from your father (but if your father got it from his father...). --Dub8lad1 22:54, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I think you can only inherit British citizenship if your parents are British citizens "other than by descent". So, in other words, if your parents have British citizenship only because they were born to British citizens, but outside of the UK or its territories, then you would not automatically get it if you're born outside the UK. --thirty-seven 15:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Ah, here are the relevant sections from this article:
==== From 1983 ====
A child born outside the UK on or after 1 January 1983 will automatically acquire British citizenship by descent if either parent is a British citizen otherwise than by descent at the time of the birth.
==== Prior to 1983 ====
Prior to 1983, as a general rule British nationality could only be transmitted from the father through one generation only, and parents were required to be married. See History of British nationality law.

--thirty-seven 15:58, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

You are quite right, the article does explain it, thank you. I think I was somehow misinterpreting "by descent" when I read it. That would probably place the father in this scenario in the interesting position of being able to claim British citizenship by descent AND British subject status by birth in the Irish Free State before 1949. I wonder, though, what would happen to the second generation born outside the UK if it was born (for argument's sake to two parents who were British citizens by descent) in a country with no jus soli. Presumably, to avoid statelessness, British citizenship would be perpetuated?--Dub8lad1 19:23, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Birth in the Irish Free State prior to 1949 (even prior to 1922) does not confer British citizenship, other than in a few exceptional cases. It does allow for British subject status to be claimed, however this is not transmissable and hence the question of "by descent" or otherwise does not arise. JAJ 21:25, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Under the laws in place from 1983 (British Nationality Act 1981), there are some specific concessions to allow the second-generation born overseas to be registered as British, if the British "by descent" parent has lived for 3+ years in the UK before the child is born, section 3(2) of the 1981 Act. If child is brought to live in the UK for 3 years it can be registered as British "otherwise than by descent" under section 3(5) of the Act. Failing that there is the Home Office discretion to register any minor as British under s3(1) of the 1981 Act, this is often used to relieve statelessness, however Home Office policy does state that for the third and subsequent generations born overseas, there should not necessarily be a presumption that it is for the United Kingdom to resolve the statelessness issue. JAJ 21:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

British & Commonwealth law template

Does the template on British & Commonwealth citizenship laws add any value? Most articles are linked from within the article anyway. And if the template was expanded to include all citizenship/immigration laws in all Commonwealth countries, it would likely be too big. JAJ 16:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Married to a British citizen

I am an American citizen, my husband is British, born and raised there. We have a son together, born after we married. I have a daughter, who my husband has adopted, here in America. We currently live in America. He was consistently employed in Britain before, and would have no trouble getting a job again. Also, all of his family is there, so we would have someplace to stay immediately upon arrival. We are having trouble making a living here, as I became disabled, and am not able to work. I am awaiting approval for Social Security right now. If, in the future, we decide to move to the UK, would I qualify for any benefits before I became a citizen there? Would our son and (adopted) daughter be eligible for health care and benefits if we were in the UK? Would they even consider letting me in, since I am disabled? I would really appreciate a reply, as due to our current situation, we cannot afford a consultation with an immigration lawyer. I am sorry if I am not doing this correctly; I am new to Wikipedia. Thank you. THopkins 08:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It would be better to post your question on one of these forums:
Even better have you thought about consulting the nearest UK visa issuing post? Try NY, Chicago, NY or Washington DC. --Spartaz 04:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
It's very difficult to contact most consulates (premium rate numbers) and advice given by front-line officials at consulates is often misinterpreted, incomplete or just plain wrong. JAJ 11:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


Thank you for responding; I will try those avenues suggested for the forums. We had previously contacted the consulate, and received conflicting information each time. Their main answer seems to be "Submit your paperwork and we'll tell you yes or no," which is no help at all, and a lot of money besides. Thanks again. THopkins 22:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

What are the RIGHTS of a British Citizen?

what are the rights of a british citizen, i just cant seem to find this information

Rights of a British citizen include:

  • a British citizen passport and British consular protection
  • the right to vote and hold public office (although citizens of Commonwealth countries and the Republic of Ireland have this too)
  • the right to pass on citizenship to non-UK born children (subject to limitation for British citizens by descent)
  • an unrestricted right to return to the UK after spending time overseas
  • the right to apply for nationality-restricted Civil Service posts (25% of the total, including managerial and policy positions)
  • the right to exercise Treaty Rights in other EU/EEA states
  • exemption from deportation from the United Kingdom. JAJ 23:36, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


UK citizenship or British citizenship?

What is technically the correct description for a citizen of the United Kingdom? I cannot get clarification on this point, and both seem to be used interchangeably, although they both cannot be technically correct. And what was the exact status under UK law of the Irish before 6 December 1922? And their status prior to the Act of Union coming into place in 1801? Thanks a million. 89.100.159.69 17:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

1. The correct term is "British citizen" since 1 January 1983- see the British Nationality Act 1981 2. The Irish before 6 Dec 1922 were British subjects like everywhere else in the Commonwealth. They ketp that status until 1949. But when "UK and Colonies" citizenship was created in 1949, the UK was defined based on its borders at that date. So the Irish were not in general entitled to automatic UK citizenship. See British nationality law and the Republic of Ireland 3. There was no Irish statute on nationality prior to 1801. Irish persons under common law were subjects of the King of Ireland. JAJ 02:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


British citizenship by birth in the United Kingdom

In the above-named section of the article, it says: "Before 1983, birth in the UK was sufficient in itself to confer British nationality ..." If I understand correctly, such nationals would now be British citizens. That is, possession of a birth certificate showing birth in the UK before 1983 is sufficient proof of British citizenship (unless it was subsequently renounced), regardless of parental details. This point would be useful to state explicitly, as a large number of people fall into this category and may wonder how to prove it (e.g. without a passport). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.15.4.77 (talk) 19:53, 31 March 2007 (UTC).

A United Kingdom, Channel Islands, or Isle of Man birth certificate (for someone born before 1983) is normally sufficient proof of British citizenship. The exceptions would be any indication of diplomatic status of father, or in the case of those born in the Channel Islands between 1940-45, evidence that father was German or from another Axis nation. The other exception concerns persons naturalised in non-Commonwealth countries (especially the U.S.) before 1949. However, in order to obtain a British passport, sufficient evidence of identity must also be provided and a birth certificate is not enough for that. JAJ 10:29, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Birth in occupied territories

What was the nationality status by birth for those who were born in occupied British territories during World War II, such as Hong Kong and Singapore under Japanese occupation? Immediately prior and after the occupation, citizens of those territories would normally have British subject status by birth. If these people could not have British subject status by birth during the occupation, they would certainly be British subject by descent. The question is whether British nationality or "enemy" nationality law applied. What about those born to enemy alien? If British nationality law was recognised, would jus soli apply to them? It only says they are excluded from jus soli in Nationality Act 1948 (enacted in 1949) which was well after the war. This is one of the topics to be expanded in British nationality law and Hong Kong, any reference and pointers would be appreciated. Thanks. --Kvasir 18:25, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Occupation had no effect on the nationality laws. There was an equivalent exclusion for children of "enemy aliens" in the British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act 1914. At no point did the United Kingdom recognise enemy laws as applying in its occupied territories. JAJ 10:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

US Military

Hello, I have read over this page, but it is still unclear to me. I was born on January 12th, 1990 in Upper Haford England. At that time, it was a US military base and since it has been closed down. Now I have been living my childhood as a US military dependent. Now once I'm out the house I plan on returning to Enlgand. Do I qualify as a British citizen, could I get Dual citizenship between the US and the UK, or what?

As you were born in 1990 (ie, after 1982) you are not a British citizen unless one of your parents at the time of your birth was a British citizen or permanent resident. Visiting forces are not considered to be permanent residents so you are likely out of luck unless your non-military parent was British. Sorry. JAJ 23:33, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


Is the Queen a citizen?

Is the Queen considered a citizen or is she designated as a sovereign? If so what was she before she was queen? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.224.218.136 (talk) 16:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no defined statute but there is a strong argument that as Monarch, the Queen is above the notion of citizenship and therefore is not a British citizen. However she was a Citizen of the UK & Colonies before her Accession in 1952 and if she were to abdicate, she would henceforth be a British citizen. Other members of the Royal Family are British citizens. JAJ 23:33, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

English, Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish nationality

Is there an English, a Scottish, a Welsh, or a Northern Irish nationality? --88.77.229.232 09:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I was born in Northern Ireland and My sister was born in England but on Our Passports it only says "BRITISH CITIZEN" no matter where you are Born In England ,Scotland Wales Northern Ireland, Channel islands Or the Isle of Man it says "British Citizen" inside the Passport —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scales67 (talk • contribs) 11:34, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

In formal terms, no. The legal nationality is British or United Kingdom. If you look in the passport of an English, Scottish, Welsh, or Northern Irish person for the section that gives nationality it says "British Citizen". English, Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish are informal nationalities. They have a great deal of significance to some people but not to others. They are sometimes useful descriptions of people - especially those who strongly identify with one of the constituent countries of the UK. Their use can be a sensitive matter and there are spats going on in parts of Wikipedia about how they should be used. I have English, Welsh and Scots friends who clearly define themselves in those terms and don't like to be described as British. I have other friends from England, Wales and Scotland who hate being called anything other than British. It gets even more complicated when people also identify with one of the myriad ethnic groups you find within the UK. I don't know many people who call themselves Black English but there are plenty of people who describe themselves as Black British who were born in England to parents who were born in England. I've also met people who describe themselves as Black Welsh and Black Scots.
It seems to me that British, English, Scottish, Welsh, or Northern Irish are all ethnic descriptors whereas only British is technically a nationality. It's a bit like Texans and Texas. Most Texans are proud to call themselves Texans and many would use that as the first way of describing who they are and where their roots are - but they would give their nationality as "US" or "American". Circusandmagicfan 19:25, 4 November 2007 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan

Clarification of the UK Mother section

Hi guys! My fiance is going about applying to Register as a British national - her mother is British, and she was born before 1983, so it's apparent that she's eligible to apply for Registration via the UK Mother form.

However, part of this Wikipedia article has stopped us in our tracks. Namely, "However those with permanent resident status in the UK, or entitled to Right of Abode, may instead prefer to seek naturalisation as a British citizen which gives transmissible British citizenship otherwise than by descent".

Now, obviously she DOES have Right of Abode, but we've not sure what the last part of this quote means - "transmissable British citizenship OTHERWISE than by descent". How is it that being Registered would be in any way different (or indeed, less desirable) than being naturalised. And would the naturalisation require the standard 5 years of living in the UK to be valid?

What we're hoping to do is get her Registered (and get a UK passport) in the next few months. We're getting married in April 2009. And around June 2009, we are hoping to move to the UK for a few years to do IT work for a 'life experience' sort of thing.

So, if anyone could clarify what would be the best method for us to get registered, and then legally, both be able to reside and work in the UK, we'd both appreciate it.

Thanks! cmdwedge —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.91.9.9 (talk) 05:36, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

No need to worry, if she is applying through her mother, her application would actually grant her citizenship from birth (retrospectively). She can then live and work in the UK, valid immediately. Once you get married you could then apply for a spouse's visa which is very easy to get, and you could then live or work in the UK as long as she is there (ie, you can't enter before her, you can't stay longer than her). You could get British citizenship through her, but only after living in the UK for at least three years with her. Just make sure she fills out the UKM form. Sad mouse (talk) 18:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Registration as a British citizen under section 4C (UKM provisions) of the British Nationality Act confers British citizenship by descent and is not retrospective to birth. JAJ (talk) 23:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Retrospective to birth as in, they recognise that you were born British and are only now registering as British. Anyway, what mattered to the person asking the question was the effects - which is that the spouse will be able to live and work in the UK. Sad mouse (talk) 03:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Registration as a British citizen is never retrospective. Section 42 of the British Nationality Act 1981 makes this clear. JAJ (talk) 04:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

question about who could apply for British citizenship

say for example that your mother was born in Rhodesia in 1962, a British colony at the time, she left rhodesia in 1964 never becoming a citizen of the 'independent' state and went to South Africa where she had you in 1981, in this case, would she be able to apply for citizenship or is she born a citizen of th UK? What about her ofspring? would they be able to apply for citizenship through her? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.207.249.11 (talk) 07:04, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I was born in the UK to Ghanaian parents and sent to Ghana when i was 4.I have a british birth certificate but i lost my passport through fire.Can i still claim a Uk passport or nationality?

This is not the right place to ask such a question. The best solution would be to go to the UK Borders Agency website where you can find detailed information or contact the British government http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/ BritishWatcher (talk) 20:53, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I think I may qualify for a citizenship under the new changes for a child born to a UK mother before 1983 - do they need to hold a current passport? also what happens if your husband is a british citizen through birth - how do we ensure we can pass this right onto our children? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.216.160 (talk) 04:44, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Again, whether you qualify for citizenship or not is a specific question of immigration law, which cannot be answered here because Wikipedia does not offer legal opinions. Consult http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/ instead. Gabbe (talk) 07:34, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Isle of Man Citizenship

I have a question re IoM passports/citizenship. The IoM article currently gives this much of the story:

Citizenship is covered by UK law, and Manx people are classed as British citizens, although those without a grandparent born in the UK (or who have not lived continuously for a period of five or more years in the UK) do not have the same rights as other British citizens with regard to employment and establishment in the European Union. Citizenship is covered by UK law, and Manx people are classed as British citizens, although those without a grandparent born in the UK (or who have not lived continuously for a period of five or more years in the UK) do not have the same rights as other British citizens with regard to employment and establishment in the European Union.

I have read this separately on a "Blog" website:

...resdients of the Isle of Man receive full UK passports which inlcude an extra entry detailing their Manx nationality. Whereas residents of the 2 Channel Islands states - The Bailiwick of Guernsey and The Bailiwick of Jersey receive British Islands passports, which have the following on the front cover: "British Islands, Bailiwick of Jersey" or "British Islands, Bailiwick of Guernsey" So slightly different in that they do not have full UK citizenship like a Manx national does.BlogLink

Does any one know (A) what is the actual wording on the front cover of an IoM passport; (B) whether the description of the position on the "Blog" is correct; (C) if it is, why do IoM passports not have "British Islands" on the front cover...If there is a difference, is there also a difference in the status of the IoM vis a vis the other two Crown Dependencies?

I initially posted this on the IoM talk page but have not had a response so thought I'd ask here too. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 20:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The following points may clarify:
  • Passports issued by the Isle of Man Passport Office say "British Islands - Isle of Man"
  • Isle of Man passports can be issued to any British citizen in the Isle of Man (whether or not that person has "Manx status" under the local employment laws). They can also be issued to Manx-connected British citizens residing in the mainland U.K. or any of the other Crown Dependencies.
  • Persons in the Isle of Man are full British citizens - as are those from the Channel Islands. The nationality status on their passports is "British Citizen."
  • There is no such thing as "Manx nationality". There is such a thing as "Manx status" under IOM employment control legislation but I do not believe this is endorsed on passports. JAJ (talk) 23:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


THANK YOU for the reply. I have amended the section on the IOM page concerning citizenship so that it now reads as:


Citizenship in the Isle of Man is governed by UK law. Passports issued by the Isle of Man Passport Office say "British Islands - Isle of Man" on the cover but the nationality status stated on the passport is simply "British Citizen". However, although Manx passport holders are British citizens, because the Isle of Man is not part of the European Union, those without a grandparent born in the UK (or who have not lived continuously for a period of five or more years in the UK) do not have the same rights as other British citizens with regard to employment and establishment in the EU. Isle of Man passports can be issued to any British citizen in the Isle of Man (whether or not that person has "Manx status" under the local Isle of Man employment laws). They can also be issued to Manx-connected British citizens residing in the UK or any of the other Crown Dependencies.

...HOWEVER, I think the British Nationality article is a bit confused on these points. Here are some of the things it says which seem a little inconsistent:

  • Those applying for British citizenship in the Channel Islands and Isle of Man (where the application is mainly based on residence in the Crown Dependencies rather than the UK itself) do not have to sit the Life in the UK Test under policies in effect as of August 2006. In due course, it is expected that Regulations will be introduced to that effect in the Channel Islands and Isle of Man. The provisions for proving knowledge of English, Welsh or Scottish Gaelic remain unchanged until that date for applicants in the Crown Dependencies. In the rare cases where an applicant is able to apply for naturalisation from outside the United Kingdom, a paper based version of the Life in the UK Test may be available at a British diplomatic mission. Details (pdf)
  • For nationality purposes, the Channel Islands and Isle of Man are generally treated as part of the United Kingdom BUT ALSO SAYS For British nationality purposes, the Isle of Man and Channel Islands are treated as though they were part of the UK. – SO ARE THEY EXACTLY THE SAME OR ARE THERE DIFFERENCES?

Regards. Redking7 (talk) 21:29, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

    • There are some minor differences. The Crown Dependencies have the authority to handle nationality matters (and issue citizenship certificates in their own name) but generally are expected to have the same policies as the Home Office. JAJ (talk) 04:09, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

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2009 changes to rules on citizenship by registration if born to a UK mother before 7 February 1961

The Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act of 2009 removes the prior requirement that an applicant for registration on the basis of being born aboard to a UK mother must have been born after 7 February 1961 and before 1 January 1983. This finally removes an historical bias against British women being able to transmit citizenship to children born abroad (something that British fathers could do), regardless of when their children were born. Any child born abroad to a British mother before 1 January 1983 is now eligible to apply for citizenship by registration. Akilleen (talk) 01:19, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

British nationality law and the Republic of Ireland

Well done on the fine work on the above article. Question - If my mother was born in Northern Ireland (UK) in say, 1943 and moved to the Republic in her youth and married and had children:

  • Presumably, she is still a British citizen (even if she has never done anything that would be associated with exercising a UK citizenship right like voting etc)?
  • As her child, born and raised in the Republic, I am presumably entitled to claim British citizenship "by descent"?
  • To claim British citizenship, does my mother need to take any action or can I take out a UK passport without any necessity to have her apply for or do anything?

Regards. Staighre (talk) 11:57, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Statistics?

Are there any statistics on the number of British citizens? How many people in the UK are citizens, and how many citizens are living abroad? 219.73.48.124 (talk) 09:06, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

There are statistics on the number of foreign nations in the UK available here. Statistics on British people overseas can be found here. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:26, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
If you wanted data on the number of British nationals in the UK, an estimate could be calculated from the Annual Population Survey raw data. I think that you'd need SPSS or STATA to analyse it though. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:31, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Who performs the naturalization ceremony?

There is nothing in the article on who performs a naturalization ceremony in the UK. Where the oath of allegance is given? Olegwiki (talk) 11:59, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

British Nationality Act 1981 section 4C discrimination against children of British female citizens and mothers

British Nationality Act 1981 section 4C discrimination against children born abroad to British mothers Children born abroad to British mothers did not automatically acquire their mother’s British nationality until 1983. The government only recognised this injustice in February 1979, promising to legislate to abolish it but in the meantime giving British-born women the right to register their minor children born abroad as British Citizens. Children who are older ie born before 1961 have the right of abode if born in a commonwealth country and many live in the UK. Some refused the path of naturalisation out of protest that they were required to take a "life in the UK test" and "test of English" as its a bit ridiculous to suppose children of English speaking mothers would be raised speaking some other foreign language other then English. Most of these persons who live in the UK are tax payers and are very integrated in British society through blood and family ties not only through their mothers but also established by themselves. Their children and indeed grand children are all British. In the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 limited steps were taken to address this, but these provide a means to remedy the situation by registration under what is now s.4C of the British Nationality Act 1981 only for those born on or after 7 February 1961. As a result, sibling groups may be divided. In 2006, a good character test was introduced for many categories of registration, including for children over 10 (see section 58 of the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006, amending the British Nationality Act 1981). The original proposal was that all children, including babies under 12 months old, should be subject to the good character test. The Baroness Ashton of Upholland, who took the Bill through the House of Lords, took heed of the representations of ILPA and others. It was her own proposal that found its way into the law – that children only be subject to the good character test above the age at which they have criminal responsibility in UK law, 10 years old. You will be aware that there has been much criticism of the UK’s age of criminal responsibility for children as too low. Further concerns are caused by its having been imported into nationality law, where it breaks down the distinction between registration by discretion and registration by entitlement.It thus imposes a very harsh sanction, that of inability to become British where otherwise one would have had the right to do so, on those to whom the UK has special obligations and to children. The good character test should not apply in cases where, prior to 2006, people registered by entitlement. One thing is clear : registration involving a good character test and/or fees, and/or bureaucratic hurdles is not registration by entitlement. In addition high fees have been introduced to discourage registration. These high fees are designed to put off from applying for registration. Registration by entitlement, giving rise to a choate right to nationality, not an inchoate right that depends upon negotiating a good character test, paying fees, and satisfying complex bureaucratic procedures, is the appropriate route those deprived of their rights as nationals without their consent and fundamental to recognising nationality as a matter separate from immigration status. Consideration could usefully be given to creating a single status for British nationals who do not wish to register as British citizens, so that they can continue to enjoy the limited rights (of consular protection) to which their historic connection with the UK has entitled them. Preferred method: All those who have another form of British nationality be given the right to register as British citizens, free of charge. There is also a further complaint:- UKBA SEHL line apparently is giving out advice not to employ persons who hold the right of abode if their passports have expired and are using Section 15 of the 2006 Act which does NOT apply to them as they are not subject to immigration control or permission. I hope you will kindly take these big inequality issues on board as this is not only an unfair discrimination based on our age (This applies to only those born between 1948-1961) but the statements that our rights have been equalised in not correct as we are subject to fees, test of character, etc unlike either our younger or older brothers and sisters or certainly unlike British males citizens who are married to foreign women who have children abroad. This issue has cut right across families and has allowed a variety of different rules applied to every one depending on which generation they are born and not withstanding it only happens to those children of female British citizens. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmortoza26 (talk • contribs) 15:07, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

This page is for discussing sourced improvements to the article "British nationality law", it is not meant to be a discussion forum on the nature of the law itself. See WP:TALK, WP:NOTAFORUM and WP:A. Gabbe (talk) 16:32, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Quite. Your (Jmortoza26) claims are simply your opinions - they are not appropriate for an encyclopedia. If they are tested in a court of law, and the judgement of the court is then reported, it will then become appropriate for WP to report them. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:45, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

They are not my opinions they are the result of reading what is done in practice. YOU should read more carefully in the manner in which the law has been implemented to see what has happened. Here is a link to all those know it alls to where it states very clearly the processes of application I get the feeling you are more hell bent in removing the article for your own reasons!

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/nationality/guide_ukm.pdf

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/nationality/form_ukm.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmortoza26 (talk • contribs) 19:27, 23 July 2010 (UTC) These are the facts which you keep trying to prevent me from publishing which makes me think you have your own agenda here! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmortoza26 (talk • contribs) 19:25, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

No. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true. You are campaigning on the basis of your views - which is absolutely fine. If your campaign receives publicity in reliable sources Wikipedia will report that (if it is sufficiently notable). However, Wikipedia is not the right place in which to run your campaign. If you think it is, I suggest you should discover more about what Wikipedia is. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:23, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

information out of date

Information on what is required for citizenship is out of date and the source is a broken link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law#British_citizenship_by_naturalisation

Here is a link to current information on the matter:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/eligibility/naturalisation/spouseorcivilpartnerofcitizen/ http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/eligibility/naturalisation/standardrequirements/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.55.192.52 (talk) 13:40, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Discrimination against those born before 1983 to British female citizens

The registration process involves payment of high fees, good character checks, and attendance of citizenship ceremonies. Children born abroad to British Female citizens are not treated in the same way as children born abroad to British Male citizens. [1] Those born after 1983 however are automatically British citizens. Previously such persons held the right of abode instead however they are left out of the European union because the UK declaration of Nationals did not include these children of British female citizens. [2] In 1981 such persons also stopped being "British subjects" as a blanket removal of subject status was applied to all who held commonwealth citizenship whether or not they had the right of abode. [3] In this manner the UK does indeed discriminate against those persons who were born abroad between 1948-1983 unfairly due to their age as well as their descent from a female British citizen. This small group of persons who have close blood and family ties with the UK are left out of enjoying the benefits of the European union as they cannot compete in an open job market nor do they benefit from freedom of movement as it only restricted to EU citizens only.[4]

--Jmortoza26 (talk) 16:59, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a specific change that you would like to make to the article? Gabbe (talk) 18:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes I did but it was removed 3 times !!!

5.3.1 British Nationality Act 1981 section 4C discrimination against children born abroad to British mothers Children born abroad to British mothers did not automatically acquire their mother’s British nationality until 1983. The government only recognised this injustice in February 1979, promising to legislate to abolish it but in the meantime giving British-born women the right to register their minor children born abroad as British Citizens. In the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 limited steps were taken to address this, but these provide a means to remedy the situation by registration under what is now s.4C of the British Nationality Act 1981 only for those born on or after 7 February 1961. As a result, sibling groups may be divided. The entitlement to register under section 4C of the British Nationality Act 1981 as amended should be extended to all those still living. There is also room for exploring the present-day effects of historical discrimination and how these might be addressed.

http://www.justice.gov.uk/reviews/docs/ilpa-citizenship.pdf

  1. ^ [1]
  2. ^ [2]
  3. ^ [3]
  4. ^ [4]

The 2009 Act that came in 2010

The 2009 Act that came in in 2010 still discriminates against the children of British female citizens who are born before 1983. This is because the citizenship process requires registration, fees, and good character check. It is not automatic and the same for either those born to male citizens or to those born after 1983. The issue here is that the discrimination is applied as a path through registration against automatic nationality. I fear you have misunderstood my point! You may also read this petition online by another person also fighting about the same issue : http://yourfreedom.hmg.gov.uk/restoring-civil-liberties/nationality-via-british-mother --Jmortoza26 (talk) 18:05, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

No, I think you've misunderstood the purpose of Wikipedia. Please review WP:5. Gabbe (talk) 18:53, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

They are not my opinions they are the result of reading what is done in practice and also looking at the forms and guides. I know you think you are experts but you have missed the point of the facts here and want to repress the information with your agenda behind it

hey are not my opinions they are the result of reading what is done in practice. YOU should read more carefully in the manner in which the law has been implemented to see what has happened. Here is a link to all those know it alls to where it states very clearly the processes of application I get the feeling you are more hell bent in removing the article for your own reasons!

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/nationality/guide_ukm.pdf

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/nationality/form_ukm.pdf These are the facts which you keep trying to prevent me from publishing which makes me think you have your own agenda here!

--Jmortoza26 (talk) 19:33, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/nationality/form_ukm.pdf

These are the facts which you keep trying to prevent me from publishing which makes me think you have your own agenda here!

--Jmortoza26 (talk) 19:31, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:No original research. What you are advocating adding to the article constitutes original research. If you want to add it, you need a reliable source that states that discrimination is happening. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:41, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

These are a variety of sources on what is currently going on. It has not gone to court yet as its a recent issue. However I am citing articles from the Guardian as well as the guide from the Border Agencies own web site

The fact that children of only British Mothers must follow registration shows there is already a difference ie discrimination! There is no guide for those born of British fathers

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/nationality/guide_ukm.pdf

Please read the following article on the Gurdian http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/jan/28/british-citizenship-discrimination

MPs site http://garyallanach.blogspot.com/2010/02/uk-citizenship-equality.html

Campaign site http://www.turberville.org/IND/campaigns/

Harriet Harmans Tweet saying the inequalties would be removed but haven't http://www.election-tweets.co.uk/election%20tweets/HarrietHarman/tweet/10933538436

Ndirect govenement site http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/travel-and-transport/travelling-abroad/passports/who-is-eligible-for-a-british-passport/nationality-groups-who-are-eligible-for-a-british-passport.htm

ILPA Site http://www.justice.gov.uk/reviews/docs/ilpa-citizenship.pdf

Article http://www.expatify.com/united-kingdom/misogyny-is-alive-and-well-among-british-lawmakers.html

Article http://brilliantbritain.blogspot.com/2008/08/children-of-british-mothers-proposed.html

UK Border Agency http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/applying/applicationtypes/britishmother/

Hansard/Parliament Debate http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200910/ldhansrd/text/100308w0001.htm

There has been no court case - The point we are trying to make is that it is blatant discrimination and are trying to influence the change in law. If not there will be a court case soon to try and get this fixed. However if you read the contents of your own page then you will see that a whole group are treated in a different manner. It does not require intelligence to work out the inverse of what has been researched.

My edits have been removed/deleted on three attempts without reference to the facts. It seems an unfair attitude to not even read the contents of the rules of your own article and draw the conclusions from it even though the differences are shown on it. Evaluate the laws in terms of Age i.e. someone born between 1948-1983, then descent through male or female lines and you can easily draw your conclusions from it and that is not an opinion I am afraid like it or not. This is my last chance to make myself heard after which I will give up as it appears your attempt to stick to facts also likes to obscure the facts itself!


--Jmortoza26 (talk) 20:36, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Your edits were reverted because they lacked sources. Wikipedia articles require sources since, per WP:V, "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". As I stated on your talk page, if you want to add the material again with a reference, you can. The reference needs to state that discrimination is happening (so the UKBA sources aren't suitable - that they imply discrimination is your reading, and hence original research). Cordless Larry (talk) 20:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


The reference needed is on the very page itself showing the difference. There are rules for 1983 and after and there are another set of rules for before 1983 on the article itself! I also added reference to the guide as published on the government agency's web site. The reference are primary to the very article itself as well as secondary materials to other sites and other wikipedia pages and those have been removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmortoza26 (talk • contribs) 21:05, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

You need to provide sources that are "directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the material as presented" (WP:NOR). What reliable sources say, for example, that "the UK does indeed discriminate against [...] unfairly"? Gabbe (talk) 21:07, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Here is the section in your own article with reference to the situation.

Before 1983

Before 1983, as a general rule British nationality could only be transmitted from the father through one generation only, and parents were required to be married. See History of British nationality law. Here is the first mention of the issue! It shows that before 1983 there was a recognised issue


With effect from 20 July 2009, the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009 provides that a person born outside the UK to a British mother may be entitled to register as a British citizen by descent if that person was born before 1 January 1983[5]. Before the 2009 changes, only persons born after 7 February 1961 and before 1 January 1983 were eligible for this provision. However those with permanent resident status in the UK or who are entitled to the right of abode may instead prefer to seek naturalisation as a British citizen which gives transmissible British citizenship otherwise than by descent. Requirements for successful registration are that the applicant be of good character and attend a citizenship ceremony.

"In the above paragraph you can see it mentions that only children of British mothers have to register if born before 1983.The link to the UKBA guide shows in following the registration route you have to pay fees and undergo good character checks"

I rest my case! Your own article is serving as the primary source material here

And which sources are calling this an "unfair discrimination"? Gabbe (talk) 21:16, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 - http://www.byc.org.uk/asset_store/documents/resources__pbcr__parliamentary_evidence__the_unequal_equality_bill__24_february_2010.pdf

Also here is an article from Human Rights Watch on the subject which also constitutes as primary material The Government has said that it is ‘firmly committed to eradicating age discrimination wherever it arises. No-one should be treated badly just because of their age’ 5 Yet, in a recent speech, Harriet Harman, the Minister for Equality and Women claimed that ‘… older people are the last remaining group that society deems it acceptable to discriminate against.’6 We believe that such a statement undermines the legitimacy of children and young people’s experiences and reinforces the idea that they do not experience age discrimination. This is not the case and we call on the Government to amend the Equality Bill in order to extend legal protection from unfair discrimination on the grounds of age to children and young people.

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/race/hrw-statement1.htm

Also read liberties briefing http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/pdfs/policy-09/liberty-s-second-reading-briefing-on-the-borders-citizenship-immigration-bil.pdf

"4.7 The State party states that, in the mid- to late 1970s, the United Kingdom Government recognized the discriminatory impact of section 5 of the 1948 Act and, as a result, the (then) Home Secretary, Merlyn Rees, announced to the House of Commons on 7 February 1979 a transitional policy change with regard to applications by women who were born in the United Kingdom to have their minor children registered as British citizens. This general and transitional policy would apply to anyone under the age of 18 on the date that the new policy was announced (i.e., any child born to a British citizen mother after 7 February 1961)." http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/cedaw/decisions/11-2006.html


Finally read the information section from this link http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/britishcitizenship/informationleaflets/bnchapters/bn13.pdf?view=Binary

--Jmortoza26 (talk) 21:18, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Most of the sources you list are irrelevant since they simply spell out policy. We might consider that policy discriminatory, but simply pointing to it and saying "it's obvious" isn't enough. The Guardian and Liberty sources might be helpful though. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:21, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps an addition to the Before 1983 section can be made? Cordless Larry (talk) 22:25, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

My trouble is that from 1983 the law was fixed for legitimate children born to either female or male British citizens. Before 1983 only male citizens children were automatically British. Also before 1983 a new section was put in for those who were children of female citizens and there was a cut off point of February 07 1961. Nobody knows why this arbitrary date was choosen. However this method still did not treat the children equally as children from males before 1983 were automatically British and those from females had to register although in those days it was a simple formality of turning up at an Embassy and a certificate of registration was given on the basis of Gratis (No fees) and there was no background checks either. This in fact was the course for my own two younger siblings. However there was still a difference in acquisition of nationality that was not fixed until 1983. Since 1983 questions arose as to the lack of any method open to those born before Feb 07 1961 and this along with the disparity from the earlier section was still in question. The new 2009 law stated that it would fix this by modifying where the word "father" was mentioned it would say "mother" also but for reasons nobody has been explained this did not happen either and section 4C was instead amended to drop the cut off date of Feb 07 1961 in order to extend it back. It still only applies towards the children of British Females. In other words there are two sections in law towards acquisition of citizenship and one of them requires registration fees now £540 and rising each year, and the other does not require registration through fathers and can have a passport directly. I guess I could do with help on how to frame this in a more correct fashion with the citations needed so would be open to anyone who would like to help out with this so that the discrimination issues can be highlighted in some way for wider public understanding. It is complex and the process has been rigged like this in order to create work for the UKBA so they can justify their jobs I suspect. Because the laws are all over the place I thought it would be more simpler to point to the UKBA leaflets online as they show the difference, however since children of fathers are automatic there is no mention of it by them only for children of mothers born abroad before 1983 under section 4c.

These two links from the same government site does show the differences

Through Mother before 1983 http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/travel-and-transport/travelling-abroad/passports/who-is-eligible-for-a-british-passport/eligibility-for-a-british-passport-through-your-mother-partner-or-where-you-live.htm

Northern Ireland Direct Gov Site Through Father http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/travel-and-transport/travelling-abroad/passports/who-is-eligible-for-a-british-passport/nationality-groups-who-are-eligible-for-a-british-passport.htm

UK Direct Gov Site Through Mother http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Passports/WhoiseligibleforaBritishpassport/DG_174146 Through Father http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Passports/WhoiseligibleforaBritishpassport/DG_174145


The issue I am showing is not only is there a Gender inequality but also an age inequality ! I hope someone will be willing to pitch and help with this. Thanks

--Jmortoza26 (talk) 23:21, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I have added a new section instead called Obtaining a British passport for children born abroad before 1983 and have simply stated there is an ongoing issue of alleged discrimination for obtaining passports, etc so hope this is going to be acceptable to the problem we have faced

--Jmortoza26 (talk) 00:01, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't have time to fix it now, but the tone is wrong. Wording such as "you will also have to undergo a background check" shouldn't be used on Wikipedia, which is an encyclopedia, not a guidebook. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:30, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
I've tightened the wording, but I'm still not entirely satisfied with the end result. Primarily, isn't it redundant? The article already has a section on these rules and the differences between them. Secondly, wouldn't it be more appropriate for the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009? This is quite a lot of detail for relatively minor points. Gabbe (talk) 09:00, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Deletion discussion regarding nationality campaign

Users who are involved in editing this article may be interested in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Children and Maternal Parents Against Immigration & Government Nationality Situation. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:49, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Logical Contradiction

There is a direct logical contradiction or perhaps incorrect information on this page:

"British subjects (other than British subjects by virtue of a connection with the Republic of Ireland) and British protected persons will lose their British nationality upon acquiring any other form of nationality, whether British, Commonwealth or foreign."

So: British nationals lose British citizenship upon acquiring foreign citizenship.

and a few paragraphs down: "Since the British Nationality Act of 1948, there is in general no restriction, in United Kingdom law, on a British national being a citizen of another country as well. So, if a British national acquires another nationality, they will not automatically lose British nationality. Similarly, a person does not need to give up any other nationality when they become British."

So: British nationals DO NOT lose British citizenship upon acquiring foreign citizenship.

Can someone please correct which one is the true British law?

Does a British citizen lose his citizenship by acquiring another citizenship? — talk § _Arsenic99_ 07:09, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe the first point relates only to British subjects, rather than British citizens? Mooretwin (talk) 10:55, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Right but the distinction is not clear. British national means citizen in my view. — talk § _Arsenic99_ 06:35, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

How many people are in each category?

The article list 6 categories of British Citizenship, 2 active ('British citizen' and 'British Overseas Territories citizen') plus 4 residual category ('British Overseas citizen (BOC)', 'British subject', 'British National (Overseas) (BNO)' and 'British protected person (BPP)'). How many are in each category? It would be useful to see how significant the number is in each category. TiffaF (talk) 10:00, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Edit broke format

I reverted the edit by JuandisCV (talk) because it broke the format, losing the caption, and, in any case, was unnecessarily large - 220px is normally sufficient. Apuldram (talk) 08:03, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

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