Talk:British Cypriots

2001 Census Ethnic Codes

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_2001_Ethnic_Codes Cypriot has an 2001 Census Ethnic Code of 07, followed by 08 Greek including Greek Cypriot and then 09 Turkish including Turkish Cypriot. Since the codes 01 to 06 are taken up by British, Irish, English, Scottish, Welsh and Cornish respectively, and the codes for Black and Asian Britons seem to be numbered in order of population numbers for each sub-group (Caribbean, African , Mixed Black... etc.) would this imply that Cypriots are the largest white ethnic group in the UK according to the 2001 census?

Jewish is numbered at 15 and according to the 2001 Census and they number 270,499. All Mediterranean's (including Italian, Portuguese and Spanish) are below Turkish, followed by former Yugoslavs and then USSR, then Other White, and Irish Traveller.

The Portuguese are claiming 500-700,000 people of Portuguese decedent in the UK (which clearly can't be right), Italians 133,000 and Spanish 100,000. The population of Cornwall is 500,000 so 430,000 seems a reasonable estimate for Cypriots. --Pankration2008 (talk) 13:00, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we can imply that from the group numbering. It would require confirmation from a reference, but I doubt if that's how the numbering works in any case. Cordless Larry (talk) 01:33, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, when you say that "The Portuguese are claiming 500-700,000 people", remember that there is no ownership of articles on Wikipedia. Portuguese people don't "own" that article, and nor does anyone else. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:53, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I propose that after "...the Cypriot British community is the largest overseas Cypriot community on the planet" the following be added "...and the largest White ethnic group of UK citizens after the indigenous population." --Pankration2008 (talk) 13:04, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Where are your references for these claims? Cordless Larry (talk) 00:32, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

RIK coverage of the Cypriot presidential election and rallies held in the UK.--Pankration2008 (talk) 01:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any way of verifying that? URLs, for instance? Material added to Wikipedia should have already been published by a reliable source. Cordless Larry (talk) 01:32, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Stop making inaccurate and misquoted revisions to information which you know nothing about and don't understand.--Pankration2008 (talk) 01:35, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

My revisions are referenced to reliable, verifiable sources, whereas your are not. Please do not insult me by saying that I don't understand the topic of the article. Cordless Larry (talk) 01:38, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Your revisions are completely unreliable and misleading. You don't have any understanding of the subject matter or the data. --Pankration2008 (talk) 01:39, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

How do you know that I have no understanding? As it happens, my job involves analysis of census data by country of birth. That's not the point though - anyone can edit Wikipedia articles providing that they follow the rules, which you are not doing. And are you claiming that the census is unreliable and misleading, in comparison to you unverified reference? Cordless Larry (talk) 01:42, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The facebook figure of 300,000 is the number of GREEK CYPRIOTS represented by the National Federation of Cypriots which is a GREEK CYPRIOT ONLY organistion. Stop editing articles you don't understand.--Pankration2008 (talk) 02:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

What is your source for the Turkish Cypriots? And why do you think Facebook is a better source to reference than the Federation's own website as I had referenced? Cordless Larry (talk) 02:04, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

If you don't like the figure of 130,000 Turkish Cypriots then remove it from the Wikipedia article on Turkish Britons where it came from.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Pankration2008 (talk • contribs) 02:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Since it is referenced there, why don't you make use of that reference? Cordless Larry (talk) 02:07, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

It is already linked to on the page. Anyone editing the article who had any sense would have thought of visiting that page first before making any edits. The facebook page was put there by the National Federation of Cypriots. It's own website is still under construction and the section on UK Cypriot history is incomplete.--Pankration2008 (talk) 02:11, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

This version of the article has a reference to a page on the website that has the 300,000 figure. On the Turkish Cypriots point, you shouldn't use Wikipedia as a source in Wikipedia articles - see WP:SPS. Cordless Larry (talk) 02:17, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Regarding recent edits

Regarding recent edits to Cypriot British, I will attempt to explain why the following edits are not acceptable.

• This edit features the removal of reliable sources and text attributed to the citations with original research and unverified text. In addition, Facebook groups are not reliable sources.
• I'm not for certain what this reference is attributed to.
• Per before, Facebook groups are not reliable sources.

If you have a dispute, please discuss it on the talk page or seek dispute resolution. Edit warring is not acceptable. seicer | talk | contribs 02:37, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Please also make sure that the references you use back up the statements you are adding, Pankration2008. For instance, I jusr removed the 400,000 population estimate you put in the infobox because you attributed it to this article, which states that there are 400,000 Greeks, not Cypriots. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:48, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Overhaul

I have now overhauled the entire article using a range of verifiable sources. Please let me know if you have any comments or suggestions for further changes. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

It is excellent to see an article improved in such a manner rather than summarily proposed for deletion. Kudos. Badagnani (talk) 18:41, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I hope that this demonstrates that I'm not seeking to be disruptive as you had previously thought. I have no problem with articles such as this provided that notability can be established and references are provided. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:44, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I've now requested a peer review to see what other editors think of the article as it stands and to get further suggestions for improvement. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:31, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Images

Turkish Cypriots in Britain

File:Stelios launches easyOffice.jpg

Sir Stelios Haji-Ioannou

The article currently has two images, as shown on the right. Does anyone have any better suggestions? The problem with the first one is that if you click through to the photo, it gives no indication that the people in it are actually Turkish Cypriots. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:14, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

The first image "Turkish Cypriots in Britain" is inappropriate and features Turkish nationalists carrying flags of Turkey and the Turkish occupation regime, (and not one sight of a flag of the internationally recognised Republic of Cyprus) in a provocative anti-Greek Cypriot rally in support of the illegal Turkish occupation of Cyprus. The image also violates the rules on use of national flags in articles about ethnic minorities living in another country.--Pankration2008 (talk) 11:29, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure it violates the "rule" (it's more a convention) about the use of national flags. A photo in which there are national flags is a bit different from images purely of national flags. Nonetheless, I think we should find a better image. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:31, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Since we have one about Stelios, how about one of Tracey Emin? Cordless Larry (talk) 11:33, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

No problem with that, but both images should be placed in the top box part of the page like on the other ethnic Britons pages. Any idea how to shrink them down? --Pankration2008 (talk) 11:37, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

I think in other ethnic group articles, editors created their own images which are mosaics of notable people and uploaded them. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:39, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Its not nationaism! it was the Turkish parade in london! wow your dumb! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.56.5 (talk) 14:14, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Population estimate

I have removed the 300,000 population estimate from the infobox because according to Pankration2008, it only includes Cypriots who are represented by the National Federation of Cypriots, which represents very few Turkish Cypriots. This appears to be backed up by this reference. We therefore can't use it as a population estimate source. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:46, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Well simply having the figure of people born in Cyprus living in the UK is certainly and underestimate of the true figures of how many Britons are of Cypriot origin, which is what this article is about. Since it is claimed that the 300,000 figure includes few Turkish Cypriots, couldn't the 130,000 figure for Turkish Cypriots be added to the 300,000 to give a rough figure. It would be considerably better than stating just how many British people were born in Cyprus. Either this or just writting over 300,000 instead of just 300,000. Thanks Stevvvv4444 (talk) 14:15, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

I think that adding estimates together in such a fashion would breach WP:SYNTH. Can we not find an estimate of the total population anywhere? Cordless Larry (talk) 14:26, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be. Also I don't really understand why the 300,000 figure won't include Turkish Cypriots, as it does say that 300,000 Britons are of Cypriot origin (surely anyone regardless of ethnicity). Maybe be would agree on this format, its not technically combining information. Thanks Stevvvv4444 (talk) 14:33, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Cypriot British

File:Stelios launches easyOffice.jpg Notable Cypriot Britons: Sir Stelios Haji-Ioannou · Tracy Emin · George Michael · Leon Osman
Regions with significant populations
London
Languages
English, Greek, Turkish
Religion
Cypriot Orthodox Church, Islam
Related ethnic groups
Greeks, Turks, Cypriot

The Federation website states that it is "an umbrella organisation representing the Cypriot community associations and groups across the United Kingdom and, as such, it leads and co-ordinates the activities of more than 300,000 Britons of Cypriot origin". That seems to mean that they represent 300,000 people, not necessarily that there are 300,000 Cypriots, Greek or otherwise, in the UK. The 130,000 Turkish Cypriots figure is also problematic since it refers to TRNC nationals, not all people of Turkish Cypriot ancestry, so using it wouldn't be comparing like with like. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:41, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, but there definately needs to be a figure found, as it is obvious that considerably more people of Cypriot origin live in the UK than 78,000. Stevvvv4444 (talk) 17:33, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I'll keep looking. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:54, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Please note that the figure 130,000 Turkish cypriots do not include those who came to the UK before 1974 nor does it include the British born Turks whose parents come from Cyprus. Justinz84 (talk) 15:27, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

It is the figure for citizens of the TRNC according to the source. I think this is made clear in the text. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:31, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

References

Name change

I've just realised that "Cypriot British community" only returns this page on Google, whereas "British Cypriot community" returns 378 results. Shall we move the page to British Cypriots or British Cypriot community? Cordless Larry (talk) 18:35, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, since there were no objections, I moved the article to British Cypriots. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:46, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Slight bias? Or am I being overly sensitive?

"Further migration accompanied the Turkish invasion of the island in 1974 and the ethnic cleansing of northern Cyprus that accompanied it." By 'northern Cypriots', is this line referring to Turkish Cypriots or all Cypriots who were living in the North at the time? Because I would like to point out that 'northern Cypriots' at the time were both Turkish and Greek Cypriots. Furthermore, if it is referring to Turkish Cypriots, isn't it a bit harsh on the Greek Cypriots? Sure, we done bad things too. Neither side can deny that some of their own people didn't commit horrible crimes against humanity. But isn't the term "ethnic cleansing" and a bit too harsh? Surely, during a horrible war such as that one, the whole point is to kill the people who you're fighting against? The source does not mention anything about ethnic cleansing beyond the title, so I'm going to remove the second part of this line for now. We shouldn't turn this article into a hub for political point scoring, so please post here before you reinstate it. Personally, I think that impartial non-Cypriots should make the decisions on this article, as it's difficult for us Cypriots to not be bias. Zestos (talk) 02:13, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

The editor who added that material was referring to the "ethnic cleansing" of Greeks from the north following the invasion. I agree that it's a contentious term to use. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:32, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

That said, the Turkish invasion of Cyprus uses the term, backed up with lots of references. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:36, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Ah, makes sense. I've been told by relatives that 'ethnic cleansing' of Greeks did take place, and in all honestly, I would probably use terms as severe as that to describe what happened. But I'm obviously biased, and Wikipedia should be impartial. Like I said before, impartial non-Cypriots should decide what's fair based on the impartial sources that they can find. I reckon that the article that you mentioned has probably had a lot of input from other Greek-Cypriots, but if the sources are good enough, then it's your call mate. Zestos (talk) 23:25, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

02:56, 8 November 2011 (UTC)ProfMad109.158.62.113 (talk) 02:56, 8 November 2011 (UTC) Thallasaemia is common throughout the Island. In my opinion it acts as a genetic indicator of a common heritage. The concept of Turkish / Greek Blah, Blah, is socio-politic 'one-god & mine', dogma extreme. Cf. Darwin & Gallapagous Tortoises. And No...? Cypriots are notably insensitive, all extremely bias. I await a soothing,objective response. 02:56, 8 November 2011 (UTC)ProfMad02:56, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Turkish Cypriot population

Hello, in the popluation heading it currently says the following:

"the Museum of London reports that 100,000 Turkish Cypriots live in Britain—20,000 more than in Cyprus itself"

I agree that there is more Turkish Cypriots in Britain. However, this source is clearly out-dated. According to the last Northern Cyprus census in 2006, there was 145,443 Turkish Cypriots born in Cyprus. So if there is 145,000 Turkish Cypriots in Cyprus, yet the Turkish Cypriots in Britain out-number those in Cyprus then the figure of 100,000 is likely to be incorrect. Therefore, can somebody please state this in the article. Here is the 2006 census: http://nufussayimi.devplan.org/Census%202006.pdf WPC2011 (talk) 14:26, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Use of a PhD thesis as a source

I started a discussion at the RS noticeboard earlier about whether it was appropriate to add material to this article based on this PhD thesis. I did so because I thought I would get more input there on whether this would be considered a reliable source in light of what WP:SCHOLARSHIP says about theses, but it would be good to get input from any interested editors here, since this is where the material will go if the source is judged to be reliable. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:47, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Notification of article title related discussion at Talk:Ethnic groups in the United Kingdom

There is currently a thread started at: Talk:Ethnic groups in the United Kingdom#Pluralisation of ethnic group titles perhaps as "British people of <x origin> descent" as per Categories.

Contributions welcome. GregKaye 09:47, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

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Cypriot national figures

This article really needs to make it crystal clear that figures on Cypriot nationals do not include Turkish Cypriots who came to the UK from the Turkish Federated State of Cyprus (1974-83) and the TRNC (1983-present). Prior to the island's accession to the EU, Turkish Cypriots in northern Cyprus could not apply for Cypriot citizenship for 30 years, thus they arrived with documents which are not legally recognised by the UK and therefore not recorded in the official data. Sseevv (talk) 12:09, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your efforts to improve the article, Sseevv. However, the existing statistics in the article were mostly based on place of birth, not nationality. They may well still be inaccurate, but the sentence "However, estimates on the Turkish Cypriot population vary to significantly higher numbers because many arrived not only as Cypriot nationals (i.e. between 1960 and 1974) but also with documents not recognised by the UK (i.e post-1975 after the partition of the island)" doesn't really make sense as a follow-on from material reporting country of birth statistics. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:02, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi Cordless Larry, thanks for your response. Would you have a better suggestion to improve this sentence? My point is that official statistics on place of birth would only include TCs who arrived as Cypriot citizens. This excludes tens of thousands who came with TFSC documents between 1975 and 1983, as well as the TRNC citizens. The UK can't show this in censuses because it doesn't recognise the partition of the island. Sseevv (talk) 13:34, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

The statistics in the first paragraph of the population are based on asking people where they were born. What makes you think that these would only include Cypriot citizens? If people answer "Cyprus", they get included - citizenship shouldn't come into it. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:44, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I guess it's possible that people who stated that they were born in Northern Cyprus aren't included in the figure for Cyprus, but we'd need a source to establish that. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:47, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, many would write TRNC etc. But I do respect your point, so will change the sentence.Sseevv (talk) 14:53, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Could you take a look at the new topic sentence in paragraph 3 and let me know your thoughts? Is this more appropriate? Sseevv (talk) 15:01, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it's certainly better than before. Just on the TRNC birthplace point, if you look at the sources, such as this, the numbers do include both Cyprus (EU) and Cyprus (non-EU). I presume the latter is the TRNC, although the numbers from there seem suspiciously low. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:06, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Great! It's a shame that the publication isn't more specific, but I agree very low indeed. Not at all realistic to anyone familiar with the community in north London. Sseevv (talk) 18:05, 10 January 2021 (UTC)