Talk:Bridal theology

Old comment

Will try to fix this up soon Lambdove 19:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Merger proposal

This article's lead explicitly states that it is the same concept as mystical marriage, so why have two articles? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 18:59, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

As nobody has objected, I'll proceed with the merger. As mystical marriage is wholly unsourced, I'll place its contents here, in talk, until such time as it can be sourced (per WP:V). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 05:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Mystical marriage -- history

In the Bible (Old and New Testament), the love of God for man, and in particular his relations with his chosen people (whether of the Jewish synagogue or of the Christian church), are frequently typified under the form of the relations between bridegroom (God) and bride (mortal). A mystical union may easily be travestied by an unsympathetic writer, by emphasizing physical or trivial details of human marriage: the classic example from Greek mythology is the myth of Pasiphaë, whose union with the solar bull was rendered by Hellenic mythographers as an unnatural passion for a specific bull, made possible by a cow-like contraption built by Daedalus, within which Pasiphaë literally consummated her carnal desires. Much was made by disapproving Christian writers like Arnobius of the "rapes" of Zeus (Jupiter).

In Christianity, virginity been considered from the earliest centuries as a special offering made by the soul to its spouse, Jesus Christ. Nothing else seems to have been meant in speaking of the mystical nuptials of Saint Agnes and of St. Catherine of Alexandria, or that of the Blessed Virgin, as Spouse of the Holy Spirit(as she had Conceived Christ, by the Power of the Holy Spirit, in the Gospels according to Sts. Matthew and Luke). These primitive notions were afterwards developed more completely, and the phrase mystical marriage has been taken in two different senses, the one wide and the other more restricted.

(1) In many of the lives of the saints, the wide sense is intended. Here the mystical marriage consists in a vision in which Christ tells a soul that He takes it for His bride, presenting it with the customary wedding ring, and the apparition is accompanied by a ceremony; the Blessed Virgin, other saints and angels are present. This festivity is but the accompaniment and symbol of a purely spiritual grace; hagiographers do not make clear what this grace is, but it may at least be said that the soul receives a sudden augmentation of charity and of familiarity with God, who will thereafter take more special care of it. All this, indeed, is involved in the notion of marriage. Moreover, as a wife should share in the life of her husband, and as Christ suffered for the redemption of mankind, the mystical spouse enters into a more intimate participation in Jesus' sufferings. Accordingly, in three cases out of every four, the mystical marriage has been granted to stigmatics. Dr. Imbert estimated that from the earliest times to the 2àth century history has recorded seventy-seven mystical marriages; they are mentioned in connection with female saints, beatae and venerabiles—e.g. Blessed Angela of Foligno, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Colette, St. Teresa, St. Catherine of Ricci, Venerable Marina d'Escobar, St. Mary Magdalen de' Pazzi, St. Veronica Giuliani, Venerable Maria de Agreda. Religious art has exercised its resources upon mystical marriage, considered as a festive celebration. That of St. Catherine of Alexandria is the subject of Hans Memling's masterpiece (in St. John's Hospital, Bruges), as also of paintings by Jordaens (Madrid), Antonio da Correggio (Naples and the Louvre) and others; Fra Bartolommeo has done as much for St. Catherine of Siena.

Hans Memling, mystical marriage of Saint Catherine of Alexandria

(2) In a more restricted sense, the term mystical marriage is employed by St. Teresa and St. John of the Cross to designate that mystical union with God which is the most exalted condition attainable by the soul in this life. It is also called a "transforming union", "consummate union" and "deification". St. Teresa likewise calls it "the seventh resting-place" of the "interior castle"; she speaks of it only in the last treatise she composed five years before her death, when she had been but recently raised to this degree. This state consists of three elements:

• an almost continual sense of the presence of God, even in the midst of external occupations. This favour does not of itself produce an alienation of the senses; ecstasies are more rare. Nor does this permanent sense of God's presence suffice to constitute the spiritual marriage, but is only a state somewhat near to it.
• a transformation of the higher faculties in respect to their mode of operation: hence the name "transforming union"; it is the essential note of the state. The soul is conscious that in its supernatural acts of intellect and of will, it participates in the Divine life and the analogous acts in God. To understand what is meant by this, it must be remembered that in heaven we are not only to enjoy the vision of God, but to feel our participation in His nature. Mystical writers have sometimes exaggerated in describing this grace; it has been said that we think by the eternal thought of God, love by His infinite love and will by His will. Thus they appear to confound the Divine and human natures. They are describing what they believe they feel; like the astronomers, they speak the language of appearances, which we find easier to understand. Here, as in human marriage, there is a fusion of two lives.
• an habitual vision of the Blessed Trinity or of some Divine attribute. This grace is sometimes accorded before the transforming union. Certain authors appear to hold that in the transforming union there is produced a union with the Divine Word more special than that with the other two Divine Persons; but there is no proof that this is so in all cases. St. Teresa gives the name of "spiritual betrothal" to passing foretastes of the transforming union, such as occur in raptures.

[End of unsourced merger material. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 05:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC) ]

Quotefarm

The article, as it stands, is essentially a quotefarm, often of WP:PRIMARY sources, and often with inadequate citation. My intention is to sometime in the near future move all material, that does not have discussion (not merely quotation) sourced to a valid citation to a secondary source, here to talk. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 05:36, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Within the Judeo-Christian tradition, bridal theology, also referred to as mystical marriage, concerns the relationship of the believer, or body of believers (church) and God, drawing an analogy with the natural husband/wife relationship.

Bridal Theology in the Old Testament

In the Old Testament of the Bible, God is represented as the Husband. Israel, His people, are the wife; sometimes faithful, sometimes errant.

Isaiah 54:5 — For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is His Name, and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; the God of the whole earth shall He be called.

Isaiah 62:5 — And as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

God represents Himself as being married to His people

Jeremiah 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you:

The Song of Solomon

The most vivid example of bridal theology in the Old Testament scriptures is found in the Song of Solomon, also referred to as the Song of Songs.

Christian theologians have long discussed whether the Song of Solomon should be taken as a literal love poem or as an analogy of relationship of God with His Bride. Origen (3rd century AD) wrote three commentaries on the Song of Songs in Greek. Gregory of Nyssa (d. 394), posited that the goal of the Song of Songs is the union of the soul with God. Richard of St. Victor (Middle Ages) wrote a detailed commentary on chapters 3 to 5 of the Song of Songs. Bernard of Clairvaux composed an extensive series of sermons on the text. The English mystic Richard Rolle (d. 1349) wrote a lyrical commentary on the three first verses of the Song.

The Spiritual Canticle of John of the Cross is inspired by the Song of Songs. Saint Teresa of Avila wrote a book on "Concepts of the Love of God" based upon the Song of Songs. The French mystic Madame Guyon published a hastily written interpretation of the text in 1685.<ref>[http://web.archive.org/web/20080524222500/http://www.unc.edu/~cernst/articles/sosintro.htm Interpreting the Song of Songs: The Paradox of Spiritual and Sensual Love], Carl W. Ernst</ref>

The New Testament and Jesus the Bridegroom

In the New Testament, Jesus is the Bridegroom and Husband. The individual Christian, and the collective body of believers, are His bride, then wife.

Epistle to the Romans 7:4 -- Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to Him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Revelation 19:7-9 — Let us be glad and rejoice and give honor to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Marriage metaphors abound in the teaching of Jesus. There are specific mentions of marriage, the bridegroom, the bride; there are also passages where Jesus refers to marriage customs of the day to illustrate His meaning.

In Matthew 22:1-14, Jesus likens the kingdom of Heaven to a marriage.

In Matthew 25:1-13, man’s expectancy of salvation is compared to the wisdom or foolishness of virgins who wait for the bridegroom.

Other New Testament writers allude to the marriage of believers with Jesus. John the Baptist, when announcing the coming of Jesus, calls himself the friend of the bridegroom, but that he is not the Christ. John declares "he that hath the bride is the bridegroom" (John 3:29) implying that Jesus and not he himself is the Messiah.

Paul of Tarsus calls the Church the bride of Christ:

2 Corinthians 11:2 [Paul reminded the church in Corinth that they were married to Jesus.] For I am jealous over you with Godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one Husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

He also makes the connection between human marriage and spiritual marriage with Jesus:

Ephesians 5:25,27,29-32 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the Church, and gave Himself for it. ... 27 That He might present it to Himself a glorious church. ... 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the Church: 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the Church.

John of Patmos repeatedly speaks of the bride and the marriage of the Lamb. The bride is Jerusalem representing the Church and the Lamb is Christ.

Revelation 19:7-9a [The Marriage Supper of the Lamb is the great Heavenly celebration of our marriage to Jesus.] Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9a And he [the angel] saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Early Christianity

Ambrose of Milan spoke of the individual’s soul conubii foedere copulatur, "joined in bonds of matrimony" to God, and often used the Song in his homilies and liturgical works. Ambrose wrote of the believer’s soul kissing Jesus, his Divine Lover, calling to him and waiting eagerly for his caresses, asking to be awakened from his sleep to be filled with his presence. The wedding night was the culmination of the believer’s individual spiritual union with his Lord.<ref>Daniel P. Moloney in his review of “The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity”, by Leon J. Podles.</ref>{{full|date=November 2010}}

Medieval mysticism

The writings of mystics in the Middle Ages echo the passion of the Song of Solomon and indicate the intimacy which characterised their relationship with their Saviour.

Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153)

Bernard of Clairvaux, France, was the compiler of the Rule of the Order of Knights Templar. He wrote eighty-six sermons on the Canticle (Song of Songs). Towards the end of his life Bernard attempted to describe how he himself experienced the coming of the Word – the Bridegroom – to the soul.

You ask, then, how I knew that He was present, since His ways are past finding out? Because the Word is liv-ing and effective, and as soon as ever He entered into me, He has aroused my sleeping soul, and stirred and softened and pricked my heart, that hitherto was sick and hard as stone. He has begun to pluck up and destroy, to build and to plant, to water the dry places and shed light upon the dark, to open what was shut, to warm the chill, to make the crooked straight and the rough places plain; so that my soul has blessed the Lord and all that is within me praised His Holy Name. Thus has the Bridegroom entered into me.<ref>{{Cite book | last1 = Cox | first1 = Michael | title = A handbook of Christian mysticism | date = | publisher = Crucible, 1986. | location = | isbn = 0-85030-511-X | pages = }}{{page number}}</ref>

Teresa of Avila (1515–1582)

Teresa was a Spanish mystic who lived during the Counter-Reformation, a period of religious turmoil in Europe. Teresa founded several houses for discalced (or "barefoot") Carmelite friars and nuns, who sought to live according to the original rule of the order. This was a more primitive and ascetic form of monastic life than was practiced in Spain at that time. In addition, Teresa was author of numerous books, including her Life, a personal autobiography, the Way of Perfection, a handbook for her nuns, and Interior Mansions, in which she describes the many different steps taken on the path to mystical union with God.

Teresa described the soul's intense desire for God in the language of erotic passion. In this, she belongs to a long tradition of mystical experience that is known as bridal mysticism:

It pleased our Lord that I should see the following vision a number of times. I saw an angel near me, on the left side, in bodily form. This I am not wont to see, save very rarely.... In this vision it pleased the Lord that I should see it thus. He was not tall, but short, marvellously beautiful, with a face which shone as though he were one of the highest of the angels, who seem to be all of fire: they must be those whom we call Seraphim.... I saw in his hands a long golden spear, and at the point of the iron there seemed to be a little fire. This I thought that he thrust several times into my heart, and that it penetrated to my entrails. When he drew out the spear he seemed to be drawing them with it, leaving me all on fire with a wondrous love for God. The pain was so great that it caused me to utter several moans; and yet so exceeding sweet is this greatest of pains that it is impossible to desire to be rid of it, or for the soul to be content with less than God. (Peers, 197)

John of the Cross

John of the Cross wrote The Spiritual Canticle of the Soul and the Bridegroom Christ in the 16th century.

O you soul, then, most beautiful of creatures, who so long to know the place where your Beloved is, that you may seek Him, and be united to Him, you know now that you are yourself that very tabernacle where He dwells, the secret chamber of His retreat where He is hidden. Rejoice, therefore, and exult, because all your good and all your hope is so near you as to be within you; or, to speak more accurately, that you can not be without it, “for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.” So says the Bridegroom Himself, and His servant, St. Paul, adds: “You are the temple of the living God.” What joy for the soul to learn that God never abandons it, even in mortal sin; how much less in a state of grace! …Courage, then, O soul most beautiful, you know now that your Beloved, Whom you desire, dwells hidden within your breast; strive, therefore, to be truly hidden with Him, and then you shall embrace Him, and be conscious of His presence with loving affection.<ref>[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/canticle.vii.html Spiritual Canticle of the Soul and the Bridegroom Christ], [[John of the Cross]]</ref>

Developments in the Reformation

Jeanne Marie Bouvier de la Motte Guyon (1647-1717)

Jeanne Marie Bouvier de la Motte Guyon was a French mystic. Her written works include, “The Song of Songs of Solomon.”

VERSE 1. Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth.

THIS kiss, which the soul desires of its God, is essential union, or a real, permanent and lasting possession of its divine object. It is the SPIRITUAL MARRIAGE.
… This, then, is the lofty and intimate union that the Spouse so pressingly demands at the hand of the Bridegroom. She asks it of Him as though she was addressing another; an impetuous sally of love, giving vent to her passion without particular thought as to whom she was speaking. Let Him kiss me, says she, since He can do it, but let it be with the kisses of His mouth; no other union can content me; that alone can satisfy all my desires, and that is what I demand.<ref>[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/guyon/song.iv.html Song of Songs of Solomon / Explanations and Reflections having Reference to the Interior Life]</ref>

[End of primary-source quote-farm material Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 06:10, 20 November 2010 (UTC) ]

Redirect to Bride of Christ?

Same topic, and this is a stub. Should probably just redirect to a full article. Bakkster Man (talk) 20:38, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Mystical marriage or Bride of Christ?

There is a significant difference between mystical marriage and the interrelated verses in the Bible that refer to the Bridegroom, the Bride, the Wedding Banquet, etc. Mystical marriage refers to some of the spiritual experiences of God of individual saints and mystics.

The verses in the Bible concerning the spousal relationship of God with His people can be subsumed under Bridal theology and/or the Bride of Christ.
In the Old Testament the spousal relationship appears very sporadically, and conveys the intimacy and commitment of God to His people and His anger at their infidelity. It's most strongly expressed in Hosea (esp. Hos Chapters 1,2 and beginning of 3) in which God calls Hosea to marry Gomer, an unfaithful wife (a harlot), as a witness to Israel's unfaithfulness. But Hosea cannot stop loving her. And God does not seek divorce, but the unfaithful person's return. (Source the introduction to the book of Hosea in the NAB 1987, and others) This uses the force of poetic imagery to describe spiritual experience. The prophets who followed Hosea pick up the theme of bridegroom and bride most especially Isaiah.--

Then suddenly in the New Testament the spousal relationship takes a specific form--Jesus is the Bridegroom. John the Baptist says, "the one who has the bride is the bridegroom" (Jn. 3:29). Jesus refers to the bridegroom in his comments in the three Synoptics on why his followers don't fast (Mt. 9:15; Mk. 2:19; Lk. 5:34). His parables include the Wedding Banquet and the Wise and Foolish virgens who are awaiting the Bridegroom (Mt. 25:1-13). He says that marriage isn't needed in heaven (re the woman with seven husbands).
The early Church heard Him, as is reflected in Paul's discourse on wives and husbands (Eph. 21-33); Galatians 4:27 points us to the O.T. through Isaiah 54:1. Also 2 Cor. 11:2. Revelation is filled with scenes of destruction. The only Good News is the Marriage which is yet to come in Rev. 19:7 (The Marriage is the Second Coming of Christ)--and also 3:12 (the first mention of the new Jerusalem); 21:2, 9-10; 22:17. Rev. 21:2,9-10--uses various terms for the bride: "the holy city, a new Jerusalem, a bride, the wife of the Lamb" This has direct parallels in the O.T.--in Jeremiah, who mentions the bridegroom and the bride 4 times (33:10-11 etc.); Joel mentions them once. Isaiah takes up this theme and repeatedly refers to the city/Jerusalem/Zion/daughter Zion, the bride/the wife/the mother. He begins by saying, "This is a prophecy concerning Judah and Jerusalem" (i.e. male and female) Is. 1:1 and 2:1. There are various Songs of the Bride--see Is. 54:1-7 and 62:1-12. At least 4 times he says the Bride will be Forsaken--and speaks of her final vindication. This is a first draft. I need to think about how to better express this.--Margaret9mary (talk) 22:45, 4 August 2012 (UTC)still working on this.--Margaret9mary (talk) 01:45, 7 August 2012 (UTC)--continuing--Margaret9mary (talk) 21:53, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Is religion a biased POV?

In at least one sense, yes. If you do--or don't--believe in God you have a biased POV. If you are Christian or non-Christian you have a POV. And centuries ago, Christians fought wars over different interpretations of the Bible. However, since some 2 billion people on earth are Christians of one sect or another, and since billions more believe in a monotheistic God (Judaism or Islam), or many gods, or in spiritual experiences; and form together as groups; and some of these beliefs have endured for thousands of years, the subject of religion has a place in Wikipedia. One can't describe them without their "bias"; it's unavoidable.--Margaret9mary (talk) 01:45, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

The "sharpening" of "negative connotations"

"no negative connotations are sharpened for orthodox thinkers" - what does this mean? That for "orthodox thinkers" (Catholics?) there are no "negative connotations" or that the "negative connotations" are acceptably blunt? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.241.196 (talk) 19:18, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Merge proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was Merge to Bride of Christ. SomeoneDreaming (talk) 22:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

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I suggest merging Brautmystik into Bridal theology. To the best of my understanding they refer to the same concept (note Bernard of Clairvaux mentioned as a prominent theologian for both), and the former is extremely brief. — Moriwen (talk) 20:30, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Hmm. Both are rather inadequate articles, puzzling to the reader. I don't think mystical marriage should redirect here at all, but to a disam page for the various specific examples. Your ideas of what an "extremely brief" article is seem odd to me. Johnbod (talk) 04:16, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Brautmystik could certainly become a subcategory on the bridal theology page, as it seems to just be a historical example of this phenomenon (as well as a surprisingly short and barebones article). However, it feels more pertinent to merge bridal theology with the larger Bride of Christ page, as the two feel way too similar to be separate pages imo. Dognamedguinefort (talk) 20:56, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I could get behind that as well.— Moriwen (talk) 22:27, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I've added the tags for the new proposal; perhaps Brautmystik could merge directly to a joint page if we have the patience to wait for the other discussion to conclude ... Klbrain (talk) 20:42, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.