Talk:Brent Hocking

Revert of promotional text

I reverted this for the second time. The first was not properly referenced and the second was highly promotional. For instance, wording such as "he is a regular fixture," "widespread critical recognition," and "made headlines by shattering," are not encyclopedic and fall within WP:PROMO in my opinion. --CNMall41 (talk) 19:09, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

One again, going to the talk page but have not yet seen anyone willing to discuss despite the slow edit war involved on the page. Edit comment from most recent revert was - This version is entirely factual and appropriately sourced. The previous version contained several factual errors; Hocking, for example, never purchased a distillery in Jalisco, Mexico - the distillery that created DeLeon was located in a different region (Guanajuato) of Mexico.) - While this may be true, Wikipedia is about what can be verified. According to the source, he did purchase a distillery after his search in Jalisco, Mexico. Factual inaccuracies can be corrected by introducing more reliable source, not by replacing the entire content with promotional content. --CNMall41 (talk) 16:53, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Hello. We believe we are definitely on the same page here with you, as we cannot stand hyperbole. We work for a large alcohol conglomerate regulating the alcohol industry from wine,spirits, beer and sake to distribution and supply chain management. We couldn’t agree with you more. We appreciate greatly your efforts in accurate reporting. I’m not sure if the last edit came through correctly that was sent. The two issues that you claim have both been addressed in the most recent version we published. Happy to send you for review. Referencing was resolved in the second version, which we believe you agreed with. Each example of “promotional wording”, pointed to in your comment had been removed from the latest version. We clearly wanted to remove ALL hyperbole. Our stats show that all is now factually accurate. We welcome knowledge of anything additional you may have that is inaccurate as we will want it removed. We do think the awards this individual actually won for these brands are important and accurate statistical facts to the major suppliers, distributor chains, and now new owners of these brands who purchased the brand based on factual awards, case sales etc. We have an accurate reporting system in our industry for this called Databank. We also use Neilson. Happy to share with you. Thanks again for helping keep our industry in a good reporting place. Let us know if we can provide any additional information. Sgl1500 (talk) 18:42, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Sg11500, thanks for finally coming to the talk page to discuss. Unfortunately, I reverted the current edits you did as per WP:BRD, the inclusion of the additional information will need to be discussed BEFORE they are implemented. Also, there are a few things about how Wikipedia works that you need to be aware of. When you say "we', please understand that Wikipedia does not allow shared accounts. Also, please read WP:COI as based on your message above, there is a likelihood that you have one based on your position, especially involving WP:PAID. Finally, keep in mind that Wikipedia is not a place to promote anything. It is an encyclopedia and must read as such. Anything else is reserved for your official website or other marketing mediums outside of Wikipedia. Can you please review the links I provided above and make the necessary disclosures per COI and PAID? CNMall41 (talk) 18:59, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. Appreciate your concern regarding PAID/COI, but this may be a misunderstanding – I am not being paid for this. I simply work in the industry and have a (personal) interest in accurate / good reporting regarding the industry. This is also not a shared account, there are just a few of us that have worked on the edits. It would be great to discuss the content itself. The most recent version I published was absent of promotional language. Is there anything in that version that you take issue with? The version is just more complete and more accurate, so it would be great to keep it published. Also happy to discuss and collaborate so that it is to our mutual liking. Look forward to hearing back. Sgl1500 (talk) 21:36, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

WP:PAID does not always mean you are paid directly for editing. If you receive compensation for your job and part of that is to further interests on Wikipedia, then it would fall under that guidelines. If you want to propose changes to the page in order to gain a consensus, please do so here. Simply create a heading with the information you want added and we can discuss from there. The reasons for objecting to the content you previously added have already been made in the edit summaries and above. --CNMall41 (talk) 19:00, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

As mentioned in the previous message, the interest is personal and is separate from the job and any payment stemming from it. There is no compensation. With respect to the objections, which as I understand them are/were referencing and promotional language, I believe the latest version addressed each (it seems that you agree referencing had been resolved in the second version). I will post the version here so that we can discuss from there. Sgl1500 (talk) 21:44, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Sg11500. I did read your previous message but cannot believe you don't have a COI. I will assume good faith in our discussion here, but when you first say "we", then say its a personal interest, your messages conflict. There is quite a bit of text below so I will not response to all of it right away, but we can discuss in sections. --CNMall41 (talk) 18:16, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Suggested Version Below

Brent Hocking is a spirits producer and entrepreneur known for creating the original DeLeón Tequila, which he sold to Diageo in December, 2013. Hocking won “M&A International Consumer Retail & Products Deal of the Year.”

• Oppose change - The references used are not reliable. The first is a press release and the second comes from the official website of one of the brands.--CNMall41 (talk) 18:21, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

In 2016, he launched Virginia Black Decadent American Whiskey, a Bourbon whiskey, in a joint venture with Grammy-award winning artist Drake (musician). Hocking serves as Founder & CEO of Virginia Black.

• Oppose change - Already covered in the page. Also, using a term like "Grammy-award winning" is WP:COATHOOK. No need to describe Drake as there is a link to his Wikipedia page and this one is about Hocking, not Drake.

Hocking continues to develop wine and spirit brands under his portfolio, The Mod Selecter. Hocking has been featured on Bloomberg, Fox Business News, Yahoo!, The Daily Ticker, Forbes, Fortune Magazine and Business Insider offering insight into the luxury spirits marketing and branding world.

• Oppose change - This is considered original research. While it may be true, we cannot infer from references. We must have sources that say exactly that.

Career DeLeón Tequila

Hocking launched DeLeón Tequila on Cinco de Mayo in 2009, marking his entrance into the spirits business. DeLeón Tequila was eventually sold to Diageo less than five years later.

• Oppose change as-is - Do you have a source you can cite for this? The information is already in the page except for the actual launch date. If there was a reliable source for the launch date, I don't see an issue with adding it. However, "marking his entrance into the spirit business" reads a little promotional to me. I would propose something like "Hocking began his career in the spirits business in 2009 with the launch of DeLeón Tequila." That is, if we have a reliable source to support the information.

As Founder & CEO of the original DeLeón Tequila, Hocking oversaw all aspects of the brand. Hocking changed barrel aging in the tequila industry by utilizing French Sauternes Barrels instead of caramel flavoring. He is credited with pioneering “a whole new class of tequila.

• Oppose change - The first sentence is original research and the source is not considered independent of the subject. The second source I cannot see as there is no link. The third link is for a "page not found" but the source is not considered reliable in my opinion. The sentences also focus more on the company than him. As this is a WP:BLP, the expanded information on the company would need to go on that page. --CNMall41 (talk) 18:30, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Hocking told Fortune Magazine that he designed the brand to emanate “luxe, sex, edge” and as a result became known for his “luxury with an edge” lifestyle branding.

• Oppose change - This is again something that belongs on the company page. --CNMall41 (talk) 18:35, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Hocking created the DeLeón Rock Lounge music series, which hosted private, intimate shows featuring major artists such as Depeche Mode, Iggy Pop, Guns N' Roses, Yeah Yeah Yeahs, The Dead Weather and The Kills during New York Fashion Week. The impact of the campaign was summarized in a quote from Page Six: “DeLeón Tequila has in the past year become to Fashion Week what Budweiser is to baseball — except at $120-plus a bottle.”

• Oppose change as presented - The reference says NOTHING about Hocking, doesn't even mention his name. It is completely original research to put this in here. Even if it wasn't, this is also something that belongs on the company page. --CNMall41 (talk) 18:35, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

With DeLeón Tequila, Brent Hocking became the only person in the twenty-five year history of the Robb Report to win Spirit of the Year three years in a row and additionally back-to-back Grand Champion at the World Beverage Competition in Geneva, Switzerland.

• Oppose change - This is an award for the product, not the person. I also cannot read the Robb Report since there is not a link so I cannot see exactly what it says. The other link is a dead link.

Virginia Black

In 2016, Hocking launched Virginia Black Decadent American Whiskey in collaboration with Drake.

• Oppose change - Already covered in the page that he founded the company.

The brand launched nationwide and in Canada in 2016 in accordance with Drake's Summer Sixteen tour before expanding internationally in 2017.

• Oppose change - More for the company page.

Virginia Black broke the Liquor Control Board of Ontario's (LCBO) single-day sales record upon its launch by selling 1,779 bottles its first day, and would go on to sell 4,650 bottles in its first week. Business Insider reported that Virginia Black sold 30,000 cases globally in its first year.

• Oppose change - This is again for the company page.

The Mod Selecter

Hocking continues to create and develop wine and spirit brands under his portfolio company, The Mod Selecter.

• Agree with change, slightly reworded - I think we can put a sentence in there that says he owns or operates The Mod Selector, but nothing saying he "continues to create and develop wine and spirits brands" since that isn't in the reference. In fact, there is nothing in the article about The Mod Selector. The only thing in the reference about Hocking is two sentences that were taken from his website. So, you will need a better reference that says he is the founder or operator of The Mod Selector.

Awards

• Awarded Back-to-Back Grand Champion for the DeLeón Diamante and Reposado variants respectively at the World Beverage Competition in Geneva, Switzerland.
• Awarded Robb Report's 2011 ‘Spirit of the Year’ for DeLeón Añejo Tequila
• Awarded Robb Report's 2012 ‘Spirit of the Year’ for DeLeón Extra Añejo Tequila
• Awarded Robb Report's 2013 ‘Spirit of the Year’ for DeLeón Leóna Tequila
• Awarded “M&A International Consumer Retail & Products Deal of the Year" following the sale of DeLeón Tequila.
• Awarded 91 points by Wine Enthusiast for Virginia Black

References

• Oppose - I don't see how these are personal awards. These are all for the brands he founded.