Talk:Bradford murders

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This article was nominated for deletion on 2 June 2010 (UTC). The result of the discussion was Keep and provisionally rename to Bradford murders.

This article was nominated for deletion on 6 May 2012. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Notability

I wondered whether someone would start this. Is he that important or does this fall into WP:NOTNEWS and WP:ONEVENT? I suppose if he is convicted, then found to have murdered the other three women mentioned in press reports then it could make him notable. Not sure we should have this right now though. TheRetroGuy (talk) 16:54, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think this article is probably one of those inevitabilities. I expect the article will be moved to something like Bradford serial murders, or Crossbow Cannibal murders, etc, whatever the media are calling it, same as there's the Ipswich serial murders and Soham murders. A serial killer in Bradford of all places, an unusual name and method of killing, and calling yourself a crossbow cannibal in the courtroom, are ingredients for enough notability, IMO. Editors need to remember that at this time the accusations of murder are only allegations. Moving to an article about the murders will allow more scope for expansion without suggesting he's guilty. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 17:40, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

and calling yourself a crossbow cannibal in the courtroom Probably not the best thing the defense lawyer was hoping to hear. Lugnuts (talk) 19:58, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I went to school with him. How random is that? BRIANTIST (talk) 20:04, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd vote for this remaining on here, he's (whether you like it or not) notable now in the UK due to the intense media coverage. Especially if the case becomes more synonymous, which it probably will once the details emerge.--92.14.42.7 (talk) 10:09, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Problems of editing BLPs of alleged criminals

Having just added the word 'alleged' to Mr Griffith's probably highly unwelcome entry on his school's page, can I ask people to have a look at Talk:Peter Tobin Tobin is of course convicted but consideration was given to making the article unavailable. JRPG (talk) 20:26, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not the school's first mass murderer, John George Haigh also attended. BRIANTIST (talk) 11:06, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh dear. Once again he is innocent unless and until proved guilty. I suggest you change that remark. JRPG (talk) 10:47, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think that the word alleged is appropriate, considering that alleged is a violation of NPOV. I will consider revising it.--94.168.113.58 (talk) 00:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? Please read our policies WP:BLP WP:V and WP:NPOV. Active Banana ( bananaphone 00:18, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In the dictionary, the word alleged indicates, especially if such and such statement is untrue. The fact that these were serial killings is very likely, and therefore not alleged, given the pattern established by the murderer or murderers. I.e all prostitutes were abducted form the same street, they were seen in the same locations, caught on tv around the same locations, etcetera, and therefore not alleged, but likely, or probable.--Cymbelmineer (talk) 21:26, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OR - find third party sources talking about the murders and unequiviaclly calls them serial murders. And there is still going to be plenty of "allegeds" in the article until thetrial concludes. Active Banana ( ^bananaphone 21:32, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not debating the facts of this case, because they are intrinsically complex, and require statesmanlike wikiediting to get right. However, the murders have been referred to as serial killings by the British Broadcasting Company, Bradford County Police, and so it seems the murders are linked.

Alumni category

This is obviously a secondary issue. Press reports suggest Griffiths graduated from Leeds, but since he has not completed his doctorate putting him under the category for Bradford seems inappropriate, unless he did a masters there. While it must be probable he did an MA somewhere, the available evidence is incomplete. Philip Cross (talk) 21:32, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Crossbow cannibal name origin

The article gramatically implies that the name came from the tabloids before the court appearance where he gave his name. This is not the case, there is no mention of this moniker before the date. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.73.241 (talk) 21:39, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article states, "Recent events have been described in some of the tabloid press as the "crossbow cannibal killings".". This was published just after the court appearance. It's correct to say that's it's "a name used by some sections of the media in connection with the killings", but original research, and probably wrong, to interject "a name which then went on to be used ...".

It seems the tabloids were talking about both crossbows and cannibals prior to the court appearance. It's not particularly clear who's responsible for the term, so I've simplified it. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 22:12, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, The Sun used the phrase last Thursday.Philip Cross (talk) 12:36, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Page name

Why is this page name "Bradford murders"? Surely it needs some sort of disambiguation or further clarification, e.g. at the very least to 2010 Bradford murders. For one, I'd expect Peter Sutcliffe's to be a more famous "Bradford murders", and there are plenty of murders in Bradford every year. 91.106.119.139 (talk) 00:29, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Per [1] and WP:BLP and WP:1E ~~it will not be named Sutcliffe~~. Perhaps a move to Bradford serial murders would be more appropriate. Active Banana (talk) 01:12, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, two serial muderers in Bradford's history ( Peter Sutcliffe ): the addition of "2010" is probably a good idea. Active Banana (talk) 01:20, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One of the alleged murders was in 2009. Any other suggestions? -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 11:55, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

None that have the effect of clarifying the subject of the article and allow readers to easily find it! And I got no real guidance from the admin who closed and provissionally renamed the article either: User_talk:HJ_Mitchell#Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion.2FStephen_Griffiths_-_article_provisional_name How about you?Active Banana (talk) 13:50, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Crime articles are the hardest for Wikipedia to cover as most editors are not familiar with subjudice. I suggested deleting the article until the end of the trial because of concerns about references to the accused rather than the crime.

There are parallels with Peter Tobin before his latest trial which led to a visit from the police. I'm glad you removed references to relatives of the accused person. They have nothing to do with this article.

Regards JRPG (talk) 15:24, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stephen Griffiths that was suggested but community consensus landed elsewhere. Active Banana (talk) 15:50, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion this article should definately have a date in the title, for example '2009-2010 Bradford murders'. This would make it consistent with other wikipedia pages about murders, such as the '2012 Aurora shooting' amongst many others. CelestialSpore (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:20, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Possible suicide attempt by Griffiths

It has been reported that griffiths attempted to slash his neck with a shard of glass, I will add it as a possible suicide until more details come out.--Cymbelmineer (talk) 13:13, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 11:25, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bradford murders → 2009–10 Bradford murders — These are certainly not the only murders to have taken place in Bradford. Peter Sutcliffe's murders are much more famous, and many other murders have taken place in the city. Relisted. Jafeluv (talk) 09:16, 29 December 2010 (UTC) Relisted. PsychoticInq (talk) 08:04, 22 January 2011 (UTC) --The Celestial City (talk) 19:04, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, now with the conviction addressing WP:BLP concerns, a move back to Stephen Griffiths may be the better move. Active Banana (^bananaphone 20:20, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. JRPG (talk) 21:58, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Likwise, that seems sensible as well. The Celestial City (talk) 19:11, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. PsychoticInq (talk) 22:57, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If this move is conducted, where do you propose Bradford murders direct? — AjaxSmack 01:57, 29 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest deleting that page; there is no obvious page to redirect it to (either here or Peter Sutcliffe, as there have been plenty of other murders in Bradford) and it doesn't seem a likely search target. As far as I know, we don't have any other article titled "[City] murders". The Celestial City (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, "Bradford murders" is used in several of this article's sources' titles. The proposed title doesn't appear to be used at all. What's wrong with the status quo with the dab hatnote? — AjaxSmack 01:48, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is wrong with the status quo is that there have been thousands of murders in Bradford (e.g. here) than may not have a Wikipedia article but are nonetheless significant and not covered by the hatnote. "Bradford murders" is a bit like "Manchester murders" or "Chicago murders" – i.e., very generic as a title. That's fine for the media (as there are the most widely reported murders in Bradford for some time), but not for an enclyclopedia. The Celestial City (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, but by deleting "Bradford murders", you're saying to users that you would rather them find no article at all under the most (or 2nd most) common name for these murders than to potentially assume that only one set of murders has ever been committed in Bradford. I don't support such excessive caution. If there are no other notable Bradford murders, then "Bradford murders" should redirect to this article (hatnoted of course). In which case, why move the article to an unsourced name? — AjaxSmack 21:55, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose move to 2009–10 Bradford murders per discussion immediately above. No clear rationale for move. If others feel that it is OK per WP:BIO1E, move back to Stephen Griffiths since the article's content reflects that title anyway. — AjaxSmack 00:23, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose move to 2009–10 Bradford murders. There's an ongoing investigation and this guy could be responsible of more murders over the years. In that case both the present as well as the proposed title seems out of place. As this article grows it will most likely more and more reflect a title as Stephen Griffiths. PsychoticInq (talk) 04:56, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.