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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4

Requested move 8 November 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move; there is a slow drift towards "boys' love", but the data at the moment doesn't support a move just yet. If the trend continues, it can be looked at again, but at the moment, it's a little premature. Sceptre (talk) 16:39, 16 November 2020 (UTC)


Yaoi → Boys' love – While "yaoi" is used on this article per WP:COMMONNAME due to it being more widely known in the West, I do not feel it is correct to use as the article, as the term is no longer used in Japan and was mostly used to refer to dojinshi. "boys' love" is seeing more usage in recent reporting from Anime News Network as well as other English publications such as Boys Love Manga and Beyond by James Welker. Additionally, Japanese publishing outlets refer to the genre as "BL" and not "yaoi." As this genre is Japan-centric, we should use "boys' love." If renaming is not an option, I propose we split to "Boys' love", as "boys' love" is the more general term and also applies to media such as live-action films and novels that do not fall under anime and manga. lullabying (talk) 01:41, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Survey

  • Support, per the metrics used in the previous Requested Move:
  • User:Ununseti did a Google search on Anime News Network in the 2018 requested move that returned ~13500 results for yaoi and 4480 results for boys' love; same search today has 4,450 for yaoi (1) and 6,560 for boys' love (2)
  • User:TheFarix did a similar search of Anime News Network and found 3,650 hits for yaoi and 2,540 for boys' love; same search today has 5,030 for yaoi (1) and 39,500 for boys' love (2)
  • User:Katsumi 1020 did a Google News search that returned 20,000 for yaoi and 4,500 for boys love; same search today has 16,900 for yaoi (1) and 9,070 for boys love (2), which goes up to 32,800 if you also include "BL" in the search (3)
I floated the idea of splitting the article into "yaoi" and "boys' love" at Talk:Yaoi#BL_films, but based on these metrics, I support moving. If someone wished to create "yaoi" as a standalone article in the future I wouldn't oppose it, as per my earlier comments, they exist as two pages on the Japanese Wikipedia (ja:やおい and ja:ボーイズラブ). Morgan695 (talk) 01:51, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
See WP:REDUNDANTFORK and WP:POV fork. It would be two articles on the same topic. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 03:15, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
I disagree that BL or boys' love as a standalone article would be a prima facie WP:POV fork, at least when it comes to the term's contemporary usage to describe pan-Asian television dramas/films/novels/etc that feature homoerotic themes (Guardian, Hello Stranger, Mo Dao Zu Shi, etc). It's a category of works that have a context and history that is influenced by, but separate from, the largely Japanese manga/anime context that this article focuses on. More importantly, these works have only ever been described as "BL" or "boys love" in common usage, but because of the existing consensus on "yaoi", they end up awkwardly lumped into this article. Morgan695 (talk) 03:39, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
It would be an obvious WP:REDUNDANTFORK and WP:POV fork violation. And the vast majority of Wikipedia editors would agree. The terms cover the same topic. That is why the two terms are widely used as synonyms. That is why "Boy's Love" is the WP:Alternative term in the lead. You speak of differences in usage. Like WP:POV fork states, "all facts and major points of view on a certain subject should be treated in one article." For many Wikipedia articles, we cover differences in usage in a "Definitions" or "Terminology" section, or a section about aspects. And that is what the Yaoi article does as well, with its "History and general terminology" section. We do not create a separate article for that. Yes, we have the LGBT slang article while the LGBT article exists, but they are not about the people the way that the LGBT community article is about the people. Instead, the LGBT article is about the initialism and the LGBT slang article is about slang. They are two different topics. "Yaoi" and "Boy's Love" are not two different topics. It's one topic about a genre with word usage differing depending on certain things, especially culture. We don't have an article for all of the alternative names for "LGBT." That is all covered in one article. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 05:10, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
This is just a philosophical argument for mergism over separatism that ignores the substance of what I'm saying. We could just have cosplay cafe, but we choose to have maid cafe and butler cafe as well. But seeing as you've apparently made up your mind and no argument will budge you, it seems like it's a waste of time for both us to continue discussing this. Morgan695 (talk) 05:30, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
My argument is not philosophical. It's policy-based. Yours seems to be philosophical. I have not ignored your argument. I'm telling you that there is no way to cover the topic of yaoi without covering Boy's Love, or vice versa, unless one artificially separates the two by failing to mention the history and terminological aspects. That is clear from the Wikipedia article. It's clear from the Wikipedia article and many sources that they are the same topic, which is why this is a move discussion and not a discussion about yaoi and Boy's Love being two different topics. We do not needlessly send people to two different articles about the same topic just to learn about aspects of that topic. That is what I am stating. As for the comment of mine you pointed to? That is about whether or not this article should be moved. It's not about creating a redundant fork/POV fork. This discussion I've had with you is about creating a redundant fork/POV fork. But, yes, I stand by what I've stated on that as well. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 18:06, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
I agree with Morgan695. BL as a genre has expanded to include live-action films, novels, and television series outside of the anime and manga context. This includes 2gether (article), as well as Japanese BL films Water (link (NSFW) and Kindan no Koi [ja], which are never described as "yaoi" but fall under the category. lullabying (talk) 04:04, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
I replied above. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 05:10, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Also adding Oxygen, which was documented in news as a Thai BL series (source). lullabying (talk) 04:40, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
That has nothing to do with the fact that yaoi and Boy's Love are the same topic. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 18:06, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
See WP:GOOGLEHITS. I think that Google data in this section is flawed. And, per WP:SET#Notability, using quotation marks matters. Also, no need to ping me to this page since I'm watching it.
Mathglot, as someone good with Google search data, can we get your analysis on this? Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:09, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
In the previous move discussion, Zxcvbnm commented on Google Ngrams. I say we look at Google Trends. This Google Trends link comparing "Yaoi" to "Boy's Love" shows "Yaoi" significantly ahead. I tried "Boys Love" with and without the apostrophe. So, again, the above "evidence" in this section seems flawed. And if this article is moved, should the Yuri (genre) article also then be moved? Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:30, 8 November 2020 (UTC) Tweaked post. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:41, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
I won't speak to the Google data until a third party weighs in, but I think comments in the 2018 discussion established that any change to Yaoi wouldn't have an impact on Yuri (genre), as "yuri" has consistently remained the common name for that genre. Morgan695 (talk) 02:45, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
@Flyer22 Frozen: "Yaoi" is an outdated term originating from dojinshi culture and professional outlets and recent reportings use "boys' love" instead. They're not the same things. "Yaoi" would probably fit better as a sub-category of "boys' love." lullabying (talk) 02:31, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Lullabying, again, no need to ping me to an article I am watching. Just like last time, you will not be changing my mind since I'm going by WP:Common name. You certainly won't change my mind with claims about "yaoi" being an outdated term with no reliable sources explicitly backing you on that. And, no, "yaoi" would not fit better as a sub-category of "boys' love." It is a synonym for "boys' love." The vast majority of sources in this article use the term "yaoi". If the article were moved, "yaoi" would belong in the lead the WP:Alternative title. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:41, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Here's an article] published on Nippon (Japan Echo) written by Yukari Fujimoto about the history of the terms. It states that "yaoi" began from dojinshi of Captain Tsubasa and commercial works were later known as "BL." lullabying (talk) 02:49, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
That is not the same as saying that "yaoi" is outdated. It does not indicate that "yaoi" is not the common name...while Google Trends does indicate that "yaoi" is the common name. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:55, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
It is outdated, because the article also states that BL has been used as the term in Japan since the 1980s. This genre is also Japan-centric. lullabying (talk) 02:59, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Uh-huh. Where does your source state that "yaoi" is no longer used? If we go by the way you are trying to present things, it would mean that "BL" has been the common name since the 1980s. And, well, the literature, including the sources in this article, just don't support that. All the words "has been used as the term in Japan since the 1980s" tells us is that "BL" has been used right alongside "yaoi" since then. There is no proof that "BL" overtook "yaoi" in the 1980s. If it were the case that it did, this article never would have been titled "Yaoi" in the first place. And, regardless, we do not only consider what is primary in one country. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 03:11, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Translated from the 3rd section on the article: "In the latter half of the 1980s, "yaoi" spread rapidly from the boom of derivative works from the shonen manga Captain Tsubasa. It came to refer to fan works featuring male characters from manga and anime in romantic relationships. From the popularity of "yaoi" came the creation of "BL", a turn from "shonen-ai" in pursuit of light-hearted entertainment." On Google Japan, "yaoi" nets 2,750,000 results whereas "BL" nets 1,010,000,000. The third page of the article also talks about the negative connotations of "yaoi", where it's stated that "BL" is a more favorable and popular usage instead of "yaoi." This is because Japanese gay men criticized that because "yaoi" came from fan works, it implied that readers were not interested in supporting gay men in real life. lullabying (talk) 03:31, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
I know what you stated before. You don't need to repeat. I stand by what I stated. And your search is why Google searches can be faulty. You really Google-searched the term "BL" when "BL" refers to a number of other things. If you are going to compare terms, it's supposed to be "Yaoi" and "Boy's Love." What you did is like me using Google Trends to compare "yaoi" to "BL." And that is misleading. I've stated pretty much all I need to state. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 04:47, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
I'm sorry I misunderstood you, but you asked me where in my source it states that "yaoi" is no longer used and I was simply answering the question and clarifying out of good faith, even going back to the source I provided to translate. Please don't dismiss my efforts like that. Also, I also did a cursory search on Google Japan with "boys' love" and once again, it nets 19,500,000 which is still a higher number. lullabying (talk) 04:58, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
I'm dismissing your faulty arguments and searches. I'm not going to keep debating you. You will not change my mind. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 05:13, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Here's another definition sourced by Yaoicon that states that in Japan, "yaoi" is no longer used as a genre label, as well as the differences between "yaoi" and "BL." You may point out that the West uses the word differently. However, BL as a term also encompasses work outside the anime and manga sphere. lullabying (talk) 05:31, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Here's another source from the distributor Futekiya. lullabying (talk) 05:34, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
"Yuri" has been consistently used as the genre though, while "BL" has been used instead of "yaoi." I think we should think of these articles independently. lullabying (talk) 02:53, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
I disagree that a name change to Yaoi would necessarily impact Yuri (genre), per User:Ununseti's comments in the 2018 move request. Morgan695 (talk) 02:54, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
As the other users said, changing "yaoi" to "BL" would not necessitate changing "yuri" to "Girls' Love". "Yuri" follows WP:COMMONNAME--it is consistently used as the term for the genre in Japan and mostly used as its term internationally. For example Comic Yuri Hime is the most prominent yuri manga magazine in Japan. "Yuri" is also the term used in academic literature about the genre, ex. "On defining yuri", "Sexual and Textual Politics of Japanese Lesbian Comics", etc. Meanwhile, "Boys' Love" is the term overwhelmingly used by the academic literature on that genre, and it is the term used in Japan and increasingly by the West. I don't think it would be a break in consistency, because the equivalency of the term "yuri" with the term "yaoi" is false. They may have four letters and start with "y," but "yaoi" is an acronym, while "yuri" is a reference to flower language. Sandtalon (talk) 07:54, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
*Support per Sandtalon's reasoning. I did a quick lookup in Japanese sources and found that "Yaoi" is indeed a Japanese leaning term. In Thailand "Yaoi" has also been called "Y-series". This was eventually going to happen as globally widely used terms are often translated into x as a common name. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:36, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Knowledgekid87, are you arguing that the article should be titled "Boy's Love" because "Boy's Love" is international while "yaoi" is mainly a Japanese thing? I ask this because Lullabying has been arguing for what is the prominent term in Japan and that it's "Boy's Love", while opposers have been arguing for what is the common name in general, not just in Japan. For example, Juhachi argued, "Where the term originated, doujinshi or otherwise, is irrelevant. And how the term is used in Japan is also irrelevant since the term is not just primarily used in Japan, but is a common term for this genre used throughout the world." This Wikipedia article also speaks about differences in usage among western societies and makes it clear that western societies commonly use the term "yaoi."
Please don't ping me if you reply. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 18:33, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
I am just going to stay neutral on this one as it looks hotly debated. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:10, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I agree with the arguments already stated by Flyer22 Frozen, ZXCVBNM, and -十八. Just as other searches on Google can (and will) return false drops, searches on Google Scholar, Google Books, or any other Google product are not wholly accurate when it comes to this topic, just to be clear. Additionally, WP:DIVIDEDUSE states that hits from search engines "are generally considered unreliable for testing whether one term is more common than another," even when they can suggest that "no single term is predominant in English." That is not the case in this instance.A search on JSTOR using the terms "Boys' Love" and "Yaoi" together brings up 96 results, while a sizable number use "yaoi" and "boys love" in their articles. However, this may also have have false drops. The same could be said for results in the Journal of Popular Culture for both terms. We can wrangle about which one is more used. Sure, "boys' love" is being used a good deal, but that doesn't mean that yaoi is not being used. While yaoi is obviously part of Japanese popular culture, sources on en.wikipedia are meant to be, primarily, from English-language sources. As stated by WP:ESTABLISHED, "if a particular name is widely used in English-language sources, then that name is generally the most appropriate, no matter what name is used by non-English sources." I oppose the renaming and the second option of spliting to "Boys' love." I think the fact it (boys' love) is a redirect is fine, as it covers the fact that both terms are used in English-language media.Historyday01 (talk) 18:39, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose per all of the above opposition, nicely summarized by Historyday01. It's simply too soon to advance a move like this. If the usage becomes much less divided, then there'll be a move case. And, yes, what a term originally meant in Japanese, and whether current Japanese writers are using something else to refer to this subject now, has no bearing on what to call it in English. A large number of things borrowed from one language into another end up shifting in meaning in their new host language. Also, "boys' love" is too naturally ambiguous, so a move to that would actually have to be to "boys' love (genre)". I also don't buy the stats being promoted above. Search Google (with your settings set to return English-language results) for yaoi manga -wiki -Wikipedia -forum -blog then search for "boys' love" manga -wiki -Wikipedia -forum -blog, and you find about a 126:7 ratio (and also find that spelling of the latter is not at all consistent, with various results having "boys love", "boy's love", "boys-love", etc., and further searches without the quotation marks reveal many others such as "boyslove", "boylove", "boy-love", etc.) This doesn't tell us what only the reliable sources in particular are using (though it excludes the most obvious chaff sources). But it does tell us what the cultural Zeitgeist on this is in English. It's essentially statistically impossible for most English writing to have shifted to "boys' love" when the usage ratio remains this skewed across English-language writing in general. Similar searches of Google Scholar (which pretty much is constrained to reliable source) also show yaoi leading. It's important to keep in mind that many of the sources will contain both terms. In particular, sources that mostly use yaoi and other Japanese-isms are very likely to include explanatory all-English alternative terms, but those using just-English preferentially already are less likely to include transliterated-Japanese alternatives, especially if actual usage in Japan has shifted or was a bit off from how English borrowed that Japanese term in particular. Thus, even though the Scholar results show less skew toward yaoi over "boy['s|s'][ |-]love" than general usage, appearance of the latter is artificially inflated by secondary rather than preferential use. All that said, I will join others in disagreeing with the proposition that "Any move of this article must necessarily also include Yuri (genre) being moved to Girls' love"; that's clearly not actually how WP:AT and WP:RM work (since language doesn't work that way, either; any term can drift on its own, and we consequently have to treat each subject separately. Multi-page RMs should only be undertaken when it is certain that the cases are in fact parallel, and this is usually for WP-internal reasons like a change in the style guide (e.g. "Foo Bar Jr." versus "Foo Bar, Jr.") or new disambiguation terms applied across a category.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:44, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
The newest issue of the journal Mechademia just dropped (a themed issue on "QUEER(ING)"), and of all the article titles that mention the genre, only one uses the term "yaoi," while seven use the term "BL". The Google scholar search returned a lot of "yaoi" because that was how the genre was often referred to in the past; however, it is clear from the leading anime/manga studies journal in 2020 that "BL" has now become the term predominantly used by scholarship. Now, I won't be totally unreasonable: I'll concede that in non-academic circles, "yaoi" is still used a lot. (Though in fandom usage, the article title isn't quite correct either: as the article itself notes, it's often used to refer to pornographic works and set against "shõnen-ai", which in this fan usage, is SFW.) However, even the predominance of the word "yaoi" is changing, and when English-language BL publishers and scholars use the word "Boys' Love" along with an increasing number of fans, it might be a good idea to change the primary title of the article. After all, if the title was changed, "yaoi" would still remain as a secondary term in the lead, and searches for "yaoi" would redirect to the article, so considering the increasing use of the term in English (and especially its predominance in scholarship), I don't think changing the article title is such a bad idea after all. Sandtalon (talk) 09:45, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Support. In the previous move discussion, I initially was in favour of keeping 'yaoi', but actually did change my !vote to Neutral after digging into it a bit more. So I was personally undecided on the article title choice even 2 years ago. Nowadays, I honestly think BL is the more commonly used term. It's the term I personally tend to use these days, and it's the term I see used in a lot of places. Seven Seas Entertainment uses "Boys' Love" and "Yuri" as genre listings, side by side. So if we change this article to BL, that doesn't mean that we have to change Yuri to GL as well (usage of yaoi and yuri have different history and connotations, so they should be considered separately). On anime/manga article pages, you know how we have that policy of Genres should be based on what reliable sources list them as and not on personal interpretations. Limit of the three most relevant genres in accordance with MOS:A&M? I glanced through a few of the entries in List of yaoi anime and manga at random and it just seems kind of strange to me that the genre indicated in the infobox is "yaoi" but the cited source almost always says "BL". Yes, yes, we could always use redirects, but to me, that is an indicator that perhaps BL is a better choice of article title. -- Ununseti (talk) 21:42, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

Coming soon... Mathglot (talk) 21:36, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Commentary on data after the close

Just noting here some commentary on data by Mathglot. It can be useful for future discussion.

Also, something I've noticed, as mentioned at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga before (seen here), is that the terms "Yaoi", Boy's Love" and "BL", and "Yuri", "Girl's Love" and "GL" are not only used for Japanese works. I never did get around to adding something to Wikipedia about this. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 20:47, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

That may be meaningful in an encyclopedic context, but it'll need more research. There could evolve some complications (e.g. "BL" being used broadly, but "yaoi" being mostly reserved for Japanese works, or whatever. It's too soon to tell, both in the real-world cultural/linguistic sense and in the WP-research sense.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I didn't get around to this response before the RM closed, but wanted to add that it's quite possible that "BL" (which would need disambiguation) rather than "boys' love" or any variant of that phrase will eventually prove to become the WP:COMMONNAME in English. I want to reiterate that my opposition to a move at this time is not "forever", but a move will need to be based on more solid evidence of a sea-change in how this genre is referred to in English-language RS. However, I have to also add that a specialized-audience journal doesn't really tell us anything about that; we have to look at all relevant RS in the aggregate. It's obvious that [ja-Latn] Error: {{Lang}}: invalid parameter: |3= (help) and people who write for and about them all know what "BL" means in their closed-bubble context, but that jargon absorption doesn't magically apply to our entire readership, nor to the readership of all potential sources (which will include everything from mainstream newpapers to books on popular-culture trends, to literature and art academic journals, to publishing-industry trade publications, and so on.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

SMcCandlish, I wondered what you meant about disambiguation being needed if the article was moved. I was like, "But 'Boys' Love' is the WP:Primary topic for that name. In fact, I don't see any other options on Wikipedia for it and it already redirects to this article." But if you mean that the abbreviation would need disambiguation, I don't see why we would go with the abbreviation. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 23:21, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
I mean that the phrase is naturally ambiguous, and someone who has never even heard of this lit-and-art genre may have something else in mind, especially if they are not a first-language user of English. The very fact that the term is descriptive of the content indicates this, too. Someone looking for that phrase might have in mind "affection among young gay males", or even for that matter "love interest of male youths in general". Someone might even be thinking of pro-pedophilia/hebephilia arguments like those advanced by the cringe-inducing North American Man/Boy Love Association. And so on. WP doesn't leap to disambiguate things that are potentially ambiguous, preferring to DAB only when there's already at least another topic or two that are frequently referred to by the same name. But we have fairly often "pre-disambiguated" when a term that refers to some specialized topic is naturally ambiguous, especially when it can be confused with one or more subsets of human population about whom an article could be written. I think that arguably applies here, though it has most often been applied to animal breeds and varieties when a name for them coincides with a name of or plausible search term for an ethno-demographic group ("Welsh Black", "Argentine Criollo", etc.).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:12, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
SMcCandlish, yeah, in this section of the article, it's noted that "the term shōnen-ai historically connoted ephebophilia or pederasty." And in the last paragraph in the section, right after "and [yaoi is] the term preferentially used by American manga publishers for works of this kind"...there is the following note: "American yaoi publishers have historically been slow to adopt the term 'boys' love', believing that the term carries the implication of pedophilia." I knew that this association was part of the reason you suggested disambiguation. But I just wanted to hear more from you on that, given that "Boys' Love" is the primary topic for that name and there aren't any other options under that title. We do have the BL disambiguation page, but that's different. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 00:55, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
That -philia stuff is basically something I find distasteful (even if, as anthropologist by original training, I aware of some analyses of the topic that are not moralistic or entirely condemnatory). I don't much talk about it on-wiki, since I edit under my real name, and if I were posting about it a lot, people might presume it was an "especial interest" of mine or something. I wasn't actually aware that this article was getting so deeply into the connection (I hadn't pored over it in a long time, like at least two or three years, whenever I last did some WP:GNOME cleanup work across a bunch of related topics like Shōnen manga and Bishōnen and Bishōjo). But it strengthens my feeling that "Boys' love" (with any particular exact orthography) would be a poor choice without a disambiguator or at very least a hatnote providing some disambiguation. Especially if some of the original Japanese terminology had such connections in the first place. Given that the present-day genre isn't related to pederasty, having to disambiguate in a way that implies such a connection is itself a good reason to not go in that naming direction in the first place. I guess this is philosophically akin to the "don't stuff beans up your nose" and "don't cut off your nose to spit your face" common-sense principles.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:51, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Updating through current development and better sources.

I would suggest splitting the introduction into Homoerotics and Ponrnography due to the current developments especially in Korea(/Lezhin Comics) (BJ Alex), as an solution to the BL or Yaoi Problem. Sources: [1]

What is with BLCDs/Drama-CDs? Sources: [1] (i have an CC-BY-SA 4.0 picture from Tsuzumigafuchi)

Better Demography sources: [1] [2]

Updating Gay equality, since Men also being able to marry, in BL Media. [1]

I also found the The Beautiful Shōnen of the Deep and MoonlessNight: The Boyish Aesthetic in Modern Japan online. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Other Karma (talk • contribs) 13:02, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Food for thought re: yaoi vs boys' love

It's been about a year and a half since the last move discussion, so I thought I would post some general findings about naming to provoke some discussion on this topic. Morgan695 (talk) 02:50, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

  • Google Ngram, while imperfect as it tracks "boys love" as an English expression divorced from the subject of this article, reflects a clear downward trend for "yaoi".

A general Google search also shows that "bl manga" is somewhat more common than "yaoi manga. However, "boys love manga garner a vast number of more results. --PanagiotisZois (talk) 12:37, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Also worth noting that "manga" is a necessary but imperfect qualifier to filter out "boys love" as a general expression in English use (e.g. "the boys love ice cream", etc.). It omits results that would include the relatively recent genre of male-male romance films and television dramas (Ossan's Love, 2gether, etc) where "boys' love" and "BL" are used more or less exclusively as a genre name, and "yaoi" is never used. Morgan695 (talk) 15:36, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
And for the record, my position on the matter is that there is a preponderance of evidence indicating that common use is drifting away from "yaoi" and towards "boys' love/BL". The question at hand is whether that drift has reached a point of critical mass that would merit changing the name of the article. Morgan695 (talk) 21:40, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
More Food to Support the BL side:
According to Boys Love Manga and Beyond (p.5) the leading Source for BL, referes to
Yaoi as "was coined in 1979 and disseminated by an influential dōjinshi circle. It became popularized in the 1980s in reference to BL works", and to
BL "as this term first appeared in the commercial BL sphere at the beginning of the 1990s. It is most frequently used as a label for commercially published manga."
I would argue that commercially published works surpass non-commercially published works, by worldwide popularity:
[MangaOwl], [Mangabuddy}, [Mangakakalot]
Using the Argument WP:COMMONNAME isnt realy Valid for ths disscusion, cuz it dosnt justify putting out false information.
All Major German Language Publishers use the Term Boys Love, Yaoi basicly dosnt exist:
Tokyopop
Egmont
Altraverse
Hayabusa (Carlsen Manga)
In the German Language Wiki we used the Term BL Link The Other Karma (talk) 09:55, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

yaoi hole

I am trying to make an article on yaoi hole but it is not of good quality. I would be happy if someone could improve the draft. 狄の用務員 (talk) 10:10, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

With your help the article has been refined and the draft moved to the main page. Thank you very much. 狄の用務員 (talk) 05:40, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Live action television and film

@Khdamayo: First of all, thank you for your efforts to expand this section, and please do not take my reduction of your contributions as attempting to discourage you from contributing further. That said, I think we need to be careful that this section is not conflating "media that depicts male same-sex couples or homosexuality generally" with yaoi/BL, as these are not precisely the same thing. Also, as this article about yaoi/BL as a concept generally, we have to ensure it does not give WP:UNDUE weight to certain topics, which means it should only address BL television dramas that are specifically notable – dramas that are the first BL drama a country has produced, dramas that have achieved a high bar of critical or commercial success, etc. – and that it isn't just a laundry list of every BL drama a country has produced.

If you intend to expand these sections further, I think it would be appropriate to start breaking them out into their own articles, e.g. BL in Thailand, BL in China, etc. Morgan695 (talk) 04:31, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Questioning of GA-Review

I would like to inform you that I question the GA review, but I dont want to change the GA status, i only want to inform, because during the translation and thereby also the peer reviewing, I found at least 36 places where the text did not match the source. A colleague also noticed unreliable sources, blogs. Here you can see what I have deleted. Link to Document The Other Karma (talk) 14:46, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

I can't read German so I'm discerning this through Google Translate, but it seems like a lot of these notes are just indicating that the source could not be accessed (presumably because they're offline), which seems like a very different charge than saying the "text did not match the source". Morgan695 (talk) 16:10, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
Yeah, some things are deleted, because i coulndnt check them, an example, what did not match the source, is "the market expanded rapidly before contracting in 2008 as a result of the global financial crisis of 2007–2008, but continued to grow slowly in the following years." in the middle of 2000-Present: Globalisation of Yaoi and BL.
And a question, how about adding Teens Love in "Subgenres and related genres"?
Here is an List of everything, in English:
In the face of this legal and cultural shift, artists who depicted male homosexuality in their work typically did so through subtext. (Sourced meh)
in homosocial or homoerotic contexts, who are defined by their "ambivalent passivity, fragility, ephemerality, and softness." (couldnt find that)
Though these works were nominally aimed at an audience of adolescent girls and young women, they also attracted adult gay and lesbian readers (couldnt find that)
amateur works that were influenced by shōnen-ai and gay manga (couldnt find that)
In reaction to the success of shōnen-ai and early yaoi, publishers sought to exploit the market by creating magazines devoted to the genre. Young female illustrators cemented themselves in the manga industry by publishing yaoi works, with this genre later becoming "a transnational subculture. (Not realy sourced)
and also published articles on homosexuality, literary fiction, illustrations, and amateur yaoi works (couldnt find that)
the market expanded rapidly before contracting in 2008 as a result of the global financial crisis of 2007–2008, but continued to grow slowly in the following years (couldnt find that)
by Park Hee-jung and Crush on You (2006) by Lee Kyung-ha (couldnt find that)
Thai Series Y explicitly adapts the content of Japanese BL to the Thai local context and in recent years has become increasingly popular with fans around the world who often view Thai BL as separate to its Japanese antecedents (couldnt find that)
and were later appropriated as Japanese LGBT slang (couldnt find that)
Zanghellini notes that illustrations of anal sex almost always position the characters to face each other rather than "doggy style", and that the uke rarely fellates the seme, but instead receives the sexual and romantic attentions of the seme (afaik couldnt find that)
The possibility of switching roles is often a source of playful teasing and sexual excitement for the characters (couldnt find that)
In other instances, the uke is portrayed as the aggressor in the relationship; in these instances, the roles are sometimes referred to as osoi uke (襲い受け, "attacking uke") and hetare seme (ヘタレ攻め, "wimpy seme") (couldnt find that)
Since the late 2000s, women have appeared more frequently in yaoi works as supporting characters. (couldnt find that)
beginning in the mid-2000s the genre began to depict gay identity with greater sensitivity and nuance, with series such as Brilliant Blue featuring stories of coming out and the characters' gradual acceptance within the wider community (couldnt find that)
focused on the suffering of the protagonists (couldnt find that)
The early 2000s saw a degree of overlap between yaoi and gay manga in BDSM-themed publications: the yaoi BDSM anthology magazine Zettai Reido (絶対零度) had several male contributors (couldnt find that)
the conflation of shotacon in its contemporary usage with yaoi is thus not universally accepted, as the genre constitutes material that marketed to both male and female audiences (Not claimed as that)
in the 2010s (couldnt find that)
Many publishing companies review yaoi dōjinshi to recruit talented amateurs; this practice has led to careers in mainstream manga for Youka Nitta, Shungiku Nakamura, and others (couldnt find that)
Marketing was significant in the transnational travel of yaoi from Japan to the United States, and led to yaoi to attract a following of LGBT fans in the United States. The 1994 original video animation adaptation of Kizuna: Bonds of Love was distributed by Ariztical Entertainment, which specializes in LGBT cinema and marketed the title as "the first gay male anime to be released on DVD in the US." The film was reviewed in the American LGBT magazine The Advocate, which compared the film to gay art house cinema. (couldnt find that)
A large portion of Western fans choose to pirate yaoi material because they are unable or unwilling to obtain it through sanctioned methods. Scanlations and other fan translation efforts of both commercially published Japanese works and amateur dojinshi are common (not sufficiently documented)
but is also condemned as a means of avoiding acknowledgement of homophobia (couldnt find that) The Other Karma (talk) 16:59, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
To reply to one of the offhand comments you made first for now: Teens' Love is not really related to BL despite the name (except, I guess, being female-targeted); Teens' Love is a category of heterosexual porn/erotic manga aimed at women. Sandtalon (talk) 18:56, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
Is that, that women do use it, not a reason that it should be named, Omegaverse isnt rly different? With Bara/Sota, the only reason to name it is that they also have homosexual themes? The Other Karma (talk) 19:12, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
...except that Omegaverse is an existing subgenre of BL and yaoi (yes, it emerged from Western slash fanfiction, but it is now also a subgenre of BL in its own right). In some cases, shota is also a subgenre of BL; there is genre overlap. I'm actually a bit ambivalent about the inclusion of geikomi (and it should be called geikomi or gei manga; "bara" is a pejorative), but I can see why it's in that section: as a way to clarify the distinction between (primarily female-targeted) BL and (primarily male-targeted) geikomi but also highlight hybridity and crossover between the two. There are no such reasons for TL to be included there: it is not a subgenre of BL, there is no category overlap with BL, and there is not much of a need to differentiate the genres in that section (maybe the name? but that's a weak reason, imo). Everything mentioned in that section is substantially relevant to BL, but Teens' Love is not. Sandtalon (talk) 10:54, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
I understand, interessting. The Other Karma (talk) 11:48, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
Some artists who draw BL also do teens' love. However, the only "similarity" that those two have is that they have an audience overlap but the genres are not really related. lullabying (talk) 02:32, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
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