Talk:Boyd Exell/GA2

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: Grorp (talk · contribs) 05:22, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: It is a wonderful world (talk · contribs) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

This article seems to be on a relatively under-represented topic (driving). I am looking forward to reviewing! It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Grorp, just in case you missed them, there is just two minor points yet to be addressed. One is in the "Wins" section of the prose review, and one is in the spot check.

As an aside, I had a look at the previous GA review for this article and I don't think the reviewer did a good enough job of discussing the points with you, and some of their points were incorrect. It is a wonderful world (talk) 18:55, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

Prose clock

Lead

Link "four-in-hand" It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

the combined driving sport -> combined driving It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

, has won: The sentence currently does not make sense with a comma here. I suggest splitting into two sentences. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

eight world champion titles during his career It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

Avoid using "#" MOS:HASH It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

Stationed in the Netherlands since 2015, and in England for the previous 20 years, he travels to...: Something about the tense switching in this sentence is wrong. Removing ", and in England for the previous 20 years," would fix it. Besides, that is a bit too much detail for the lead anyway. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

No need to cite [3] and [4] in the lead, since the content it supports is unlikely to be challenged. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Done/moved. —Grorp

Career

I think the career section needs to be reorganised a bit. The content before the "Competitions" subsection seems a lot less important than the driving achievements he is notable for. The first sentence of the "Career" section is especially out of place. I think the content between "Career" and "Competitions" should be moved to under accolades, which would leave "Boyd Exell became the individual world champion for the first time at the World Equestrian Games in Kentucky" as the first sentence, which establishes a chronology and introduces his most notable aspects.

Sounds like you would rather see the most notable aspects of his career first, and then explain his career, but that is out of order based on WP:Summary style. —Grorp

No, I am not asking for any summaries. I think the order should be changed so that it is more chronological and includes the most important sections first. It is a wonderful world (talk) 10:39, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay, whatever. Done. —Grorp

Link "breaking, training, buying and selling horses" appropriately It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

Much of his time has been spent training -> "He has trained": Conciseness It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

Much of his time has been spent training [He has trained] drivers in America and across Europe, and he has sought talented drivers to mentor It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

"owners" of what? It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Owners of the horses he either competes with, trains, or boards at his facility. It's a term I've heard over and over, it's in the sources, and I suppose it's kind of like an equestrian industry term. I don't know how else to phrase it (certainly not concisely). —Grorp

That's fine. It is a wonderful world (talk) 18:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Is "Driving Valkenswaard International" notable enough for a link? It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

No. —Grorp

as well as travelling -> "and travels" It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

Competitions

was able to repeat -> "repeated" It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

Link "2012 World Championships"? It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

There are no articles for the various World Championships in driving. See List of World Champions in Driving (horse) § Four-in-Hand World Championships and you'll notice that there are wikilinks every other competition (once every 4 years), and no wikilinks to the events in between. The series ending 2018 are FEI competitions (called World Equestrian Games), and the series ending 2020 are not. WEGs include all of the equestrian disciplines (jumping, eventing, etc.) whereas the in-between events are just driving. So there are no articles, and no one is going to create one. There's just the list of winners in the above link, and really that's all we need in Wikipedia. —Grorp

Agree. It is a wonderful world (talk) 18:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

In August 2013, Exell's top horse died. Bill 22 was a brown Orlov Trotter born in 1992.: The way these sentences are separated lacks encyclopedic tone. I think they should be joined into one sentence. It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed when I rewrote the paragraph. —Grorp

Almost fixed. It's much better, but describing Bill 22 as "Exell's best lead" before introducing him by name lacks formality and encyclopedic tone. It is a wonderful world (talk) 18:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

He had reached the age of[was] 21 and was considered It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed when I rewrote the paragraph. —Grorp

and was considered: It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. The two sources (translation of the Dutch article and EQ Life article) read almost identically. No names. Reminds me of press releases. If true, then it would be Boyd Exell and/or his team who put out that information. The paragraph about Bill 22 came from the German-wiki version. I could rewrite that paragraph a bit. —Grorp

Okay, I rewrote that paragraph. —Grorp

It's way better It is a wonderful world (talk) 18:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

in the world at the time It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Moot, since I rewrote the paragraph. —Grorp

Boyd Exell's success story began in 2008 with Bill 22, winning a bronze medal at the World Championships in the Netherlands: This pushes an opinionated narrative. It is better to let the facts speak for themselves, e.g. "In 2008, with Bill 22, Boyd won his first international medal by winning bronze at the World Championships in the Netherlands" It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Moot, since I rewrote the paragraph. —Grorp

Together they won four [consecutive] World Cup Finals in a row: Formality, conciseness

Done. —Grorp

Together they won four World Cup Finals in a row, from 2009 to 2012, [and finished second in 2013]. In 2013, Exell placed second in the World Cup Finals in France with Bill 22 in the team.: Conciseness It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

five [consecutive] World Cup Finals It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Moot, since I rewrote the paragraph. —Grorp

This part was preserved though. I think that it's important to mention that Freund's World Cup Final wins were consecutive, as is done with Exell, for fairness. It is a wonderful world (talk) 18:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

In 2014, Exell won the title of individual world champion at the World Equestrian Games in France. In 2016 he became the individual world champion again in the Netherlands. In 2018 he defended his world championship title again in North Carolina, in Italy in 2022, and in Hungary in 2024: Is the World Equestrian Games so similar to the World Championships that they share the same title and can be used interchangeably like this? It is not clear that they are different competitions. It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree that it's confusing. It's not even clear to a moderate observer of the sport. The driving world seems to want to hold a "championship" every two years. Sometimes that has fallen at the same time as a WEG (which is every 4 yrs), and sometimes not. See above my response to your "2012 World Championship" query. —Grorp

Could you add a footnote there explaining this, including a citation which mentions that they are both equally considered "World Championships". It is a wonderful world (talk) 18:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Not at this time. Using several of the AI search engines, they respond with the same information I gave you. However, the sources they provided only verify tidbits, or don't cover the topic in the depth asserted. All combined, the four sources I could get them to disclose [1] [2] [3] [4] don't verify all the information, so I would be averse to adding such a footnote without a good source. To add to my above explanation, the four-in-hand, pairs, and singles World Championships are all biannual events, but in different year cycles, and not held together at any one venue. The ponies do all three (4-in-hand, pair, single) together during one event (also 2-yr cycles). Some of the four-in-hand WCs are held during WEGs, but only the 4-in-hands (not pairs or singles). Such explanations belong in the Combined driving article. I would add it there... if I could find an actual source. I think explaining it in Boyd Exell is beyond the scope of this article. —Grorp

As an aside, this paragraph can be much more concise, e.g. "In 2014, Exell won the title of individual world champion at the World Equestrian Games in France. He defended his title in the Netherlands in 2016, in North Carolina in 2018, in Italy in 2022, and in Hungary in 2024." It is a wonderful world (talk) 18:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

World Cup Finals: Cut the "s" It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Not sure. The World Cup Finals is a series of competitions over several months. Each competition stands on its own. Winners get points. Competitors with most points get to compete in the final-final competition. Microsoft Copilot tells me "finals" is the correct word here. —Grorp

That's fair, but in that case would the infobox be using it wrong? Also sources [11] (from FEI) and [24] have no "s" in their title. It is a wonderful world (talk) 18:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, in the infobox medals section, two of the articles it links to include 2011 FEI World Cup Finals and 2022 FEI World Cup Finals (show jumping and dressage). Also, I'm not going to change the titles of sources. Note that [24] also uses the word "finals" in their article body. So it seems this issue runs deeper than just "is it final or finals" and the desire to make them all the same within this one wiki article. —Grorp

"number one in the world, more titles than any other driver in history.": Indicate the split in the quote, or it doesn't make grammatical sense. It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I changed the comma to a semi-colon. That should do it. —Grorp

Not quite unfortunately, WP:QUOTETYPO says elipses should be used. It is a wonderful world (talk) 18:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

Wins

I'm not sure "Wins" is the best heading for this section, as it doesn't distinguish it from the previous section which also contains a lot of his wins. Maybe "statistics" would be better.

I dislike the term "statistics" for this sort of usage, so I removed the heading "wins" and moved the 2023 sentence to the end of the section. —Grorp

Statistics counted from 1 January 2010 to 11 October 2024 only. It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

is ranked number one in the world for his sport: This information is repeated in more detail later, so cut this. It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

He won the world championship competitions in 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016, 2018, 2022 and 2024, and placed third in 2008: Cut, this was already stated in the previous section. It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. Where it is covered in the previous section it is a bit rambling or spread out, and it flips between WEG and championships (a confusion discussed above). I think it's best to keep all the summaries of the wins in one section. It's not a lot of words. —Grorp

Ten times he has won the World Cup indoor driving competition: The inverted sentence structure makes it more informal and dramatic. Also, "he has won" -> "he won" and perhaps include the title "FEI". It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

second 4 times: 4 -> "four" MOS:NUM It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

Exell was eight times British National Champion: Same inverted sentence structure as above. It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

he has won -> "he won" It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

Accolades

In 2017, Boyd Exell was inducted It is a wonderful world (talk) 17:02, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

2013[,] 2014 It is a wonderful world (talk) 17:02, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

Reem Acra Best Athlete award: Either link or add a little explanation of what this is. It is a wonderful world (talk) 17:02, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Added footnote and citation. —Grorp

Link "geldings" It is a wonderful world (talk) 17:02, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

his team of horses was named IRT International Horse of the Year: Include that this was also given by Equestrian Australia. It is a wonderful world (talk) 17:02, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't see that in the source. IRT is an international horse transport company https://www.irt.com/ ; they are the sponsor. Equestrian Australia is a sport governing body for Australia, like FEI is internationally. The source is unclear whether the "International Horse of the Year" was an Australia-specific award, or a world-wide award. —Grorp

I'm not sure why I thought this on my first review. You are entirely correct of course. It would be nice to have a link or footnote explanation of what this award is, as you have done with Reem Acra.It is a wonderful world (talk) 18:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

(KWPN): What does this mean? It is a wonderful world (talk) 17:02, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I extended the wikilink to encompass KWPN. Some people know the breed as Dutch Warmblood, and others know it as KWPN. —Grorp

As of October 2024, FEI ranked Boyd Exell number 1 worldwide for Driving World Cup Standings, Driving World Cup Qualification Standings, and Driving World Ranking - Four-in-Hand.: This repeats "as of October 2024 is ranked number one in the world for his sport" in the wins section, but I think this one should be kept because it includes the names of the rankings. It is a wonderful world (talk) 17:02, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok. —Grorp

Should have been clearer, information shouldn't be repeated without good reason, so I think "and as of October 2024 is ranked number one in the world" in the wins section should be removed.

Done. —Grorp

Personal life

Why is this section before career? After reading the lead, it is clear he is more notable for his career exploits than his personal life. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Done/moved below career. —Grorp

Boyd Exell was born July 29, 1972 in Bega, Australia: Insert a comma after "1972" and "Australia" for compliance with MOS:DATECOMMA and MOS:GEOCOMMA. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

he and his two brothers and a sister were raised: The gender of his siblings is not important, "he and his three siblings" is better. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

Link "civil engineer" It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

Boyd had always loved: You would use the word "had" if you were emphasising that it was before another past tense sentence element. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

and he and his brother Kent learned to drive horses early on and competed as young boys: The triple "and" makes this hard to read, reword for clarity. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

Boyd started to compete seriously in carriage driving competitions in Australia and won the Australian National carriage driving Championships: Conciseness, and "started to compete seriously" is an opinion. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Not removed. Source is cited. Occurs at 4:30 in video where Exell states he competed "more professionally and independently when I was 16". I think "seriously" is a good representation of that. —Grorp

Okay it's fine for now. It's not ideal to use Exell's own words to describe himself, since sources should be independent from the subject.

It's not an "exceptional claim". —Grorp

You are right, the relevant guideline here is WP:BLPSELFPUB

I suspect the "Australian National Championships" is notable enough to be redlinked. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Probably not. See Template:Australian National Championships. Source doesn't mention what kind of competition, and may well have simply been a horse show or something, rather than combined driving. —Grorp

Ah okay, that's fine. It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Link "carriage driving", or change it to "combined driving" if it is the same thing as mentioned in the lead. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Source was unclear what sort(s) of competitions, so I linked it to Driving (horse)#Competitive sports. —Grorp

As a backup to a career with horses[,] and [due to] pressure from his mother, he completed an apprenticeship with a local engineering firm: Makes the sentence make sense. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

he travelled to the United States and eventually settled in England: This reads like England is in the United States. Maybe replace "and" with "but". It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Done (with "then"). Also added "London" which he said in the interview. —Grorp

settled in England to learn more about horse sports and carriage driving: I assume this because England had better facilities for horse sports? If so, explicitly stating that would make the sentence a lot clearer. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

Link "horse sports", perhaps to "List of equestrian sports"? It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

Exell is married to Preetha and has two children. Exell enjoys boating and water skiing.:

• Needless repetition of Exell doesn't fit with the rest of the article. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. —Grorp

• If Preetha is notable enough for an article, redlink and add her second name. If not, cut her name as it is unnecessary detail. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. —Grorp

• This could be merged with the previous paragraph. One sentence paragraphs should be minimised for flow. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. —Grorp

Almost the whole first paragraph is cited to a block of four references at the end. The references should be used at the end of the sentences so readers can easily check reliability, as you have done in most of the rest of the article. The second paragraph of "Competitions" also suffers from this.

There is no wiki-mandate that citations be placed at the end of each sentence; only that the content must be sourced so it can be verified. See WP:CITEDENSE

That is my style when writing new content (as most of this article was). I gather sources, read them all, then write something. Most of the time the writing is completely my own, including how it is structured, and is based on information I learned when going through the sources. Sometimes half a sentence might be from one source, and the end of the sentence would be from another. But then the next sentence is the same way.

If I put citations at the end of each sentence or segment, it might look like this: Joe Blow went to town[1] and bought some coffee.[2] Then he went to Walmart[2] and bought his groceries[2]. He likes coffee very much,[1] and buys it often.[2]

I would rather see it like this: Joe Blow went to town and bought some coffee. Then he went to Walmart and bought his groceries. He likes coffee very much, and buys it often.[1][2] —Grorp

Haha, that was pretty funny, but it fails to capture the balance that must be found between verifiability and readability. Taking it to the other extreme, this is equally as bad: "Joe Blow went to town and bought some coffee. Then he went to Walmart and bought his groceries. He likes coffee very much, and buys it often.[1][2][3][4][5][6]", because it is such a pain for the reader to actually verify information.

In our case, if the reader wants to verify a fact from the paragraph, they will need to search through a video and three articles. That being said, if literally every sentence uses information from all four sources, nothing can be done. Will leave for now. It is a wonderful world (talk) 18:54, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I will re-read the prose when points have been addressed. It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources clock

Health/formatting

[15] is broken It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. While archive.org was down, I wasn't able to find an archived copy. It's fixed now, as are the other Equestrian Life citations. —Grorp

Are "EQ Life" and "Equestrian Life" the same? If so, be consistent with formatting. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. Different domain name, but seems they are the same company. —Grorp

Link "London" It is a wonderful world (talk) 17:02, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

Reliability Y

Almost all news sources.

Spot check clock

[1a]: Y

[1b]: Says he was not a "member" between 2014 and 2016

The source is referring to committee membership, not about being a competitor or an athlete member of the FEI. This citation verifies the content "Deputy Chair of the FEI Driving Committee from 2012 to 2014". To explain what the committee does, according to Copilot, "The FEI Driving Committee is a part of FEI that oversees the sport of driving, which involves horse-drawn carriages. The committee is responsible for setting rules, organizing competitions, and ensuring the sport’s development and integrity." —Grorp

[4b, c]: Y

[6a, b]: Y

[8b]: Y

[2e, 9, 10]: Y

[11, 12]: Y

[22]: Y

Scope Y

Copyvio Y

Earwig gives 60.7% similarity, but most of this is from direct quotes. It does identify the following too close paraphrases though:

he completed an apprenticeship with a local engineering firm: Reword this so it doesn't copy source [8] It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. —Grorp

Boyd Exell was inducted into the Equestrian Australia Hall of Fame in recognition of his achievements in carriage driving: Almost word to word copy of the source. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. —Grorp

I will check for additional too close paraphrases on the spot check It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

None found It is a wonderful world (talk) 18:54, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Stable Y

Media Y

Captions Y

Remove "Boyd" from all for conciseness. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. —Grorp

Boyd Exell during the 2013 World Cup: Do we know what event this was? It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Caption updated. To answer your question: Geneva Switzerland December 2013,[5] one of the many competitions in the World Cup series that lead up to the World Cup final and the annual winner. —Grorp

Looks good, would be nice to link "Geneva" though.

Done. —Grorp

Boyd Exell in action, 2014 World Cup: Replace "in action" with "at the" for neutral tone. Also, do we know what event this was? It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Caption updated. To answer your question: World Cup FINAL 2014 (first round), Bordeaux. [6] —Grorp

Looks good, would be nice to link "Bordeaux" though.

Done. —Grorp

Tags Y

All are appropriately tagged.

Suggestions

The following points are not needed for GA promotion, but can be used to improve the article further or are tips for improving your writing.

Many of the sources are vulnerable to link rot because they have no archive link. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I added several that I found in Wayback Machine. Unfortunately, archive.org is not yet allowing anyone to save new archived pages, and several of those I found (Perth and Eq Aus) do not display correctly, so I didn't add those. —Grorp

In the sources, "Equestrian Australia" is inconsistently linked, "FEI" could be linked. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. —Grorp

I feel like a lot of the prose improvements I identified could have been fixed by giving the article a final in-depth read through before nominating. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

A lot of the improvements I have identified so far have been improving the conciseness. This was (and still is) an area I also struggle in, what really helps me when writing is using ChatGPT with the prompt "Copyedit this, with emphasis on making it more neutral and more concise. Please put all your changes in bold and list them all at the end: [text to copyedit]". It is pretty good at identifying conciseness improvements. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.