Talk:Bounleuth Saycocie

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Southeast Asia: Laos

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Military history: Biography / Asian / Southeast Asia / Cold War

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This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion not met

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	Military biography task force
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	Cold War task force (c. 1945 – c. 1989)

Problematic statements

DGG, you asked me about the BLP violations I saw while going through Kevin's deletion log. The worst of them was actually undeleted (after I looked at it) with its problem statements intact: Bounleut Saycocie. When I went looking for it just now and realized it had been restored I removed the worst of it, but I still think it's a serious problem--it covers potentially controversial material and based in large part on sources that would not normally qualify as reliable. My general position has been that the deletions were abrasively done and not necessary, as I've said in several places. But there were certainly serious problems in some of those articles. Chick Bowen 21:45, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is precisely the core of the problem. There is no relation between an article being unsourced and an article having (possibly) problematic statements. The right thing to do is to fact tag such a statement or to delete it, depending on the gravity of the statement. Power.corrupts (talk) 23:00, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What are exactly the pressing libel and slander concerns here. That he continued to fight the communists after the communists won?, that he remains politically active today (whatever "active" implies), or that he seeks asylum in the US (which was fact marked)? Power.corrupts (talk) 23:16, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Reinserted text, with refs. Power.corrupts (talk) 00:59, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

looking at the Dec 14 version of the article, I would consider immediately problematic--the give away is the "now seeking asylum" the last sentence. Looking at the history, the "now" was added in 2003. By 2009, there ought to have been some developments. I would consider it equally problematic no matter how well the article was sourced, unless there was a reference for that fact from 2009. It represents the problem with our older articles, sourced or unsourced: they have not been updated. We set out to build an encyclopedia, without recalling that encyclopedias get revised regularly. Many editors worked on it in 04, 05 06 07 and 08 without noticing. it was marked as unsourced BLP by Fram, an excellent editor, on Feb 3, 2009, apparently without realizing that just marking it that way was insufficient. That at the latest was the time to have caught it. When tThe Cunctator added refs on Jan 21,2010 he apparently found nothing to source that statement, for he correctly marked it with a fact tag. On Jan 24, Chiuck saw it, and the first thing he did was remove that sentence. I assume that was after he too could find nothing. And neither can I.

There is another indication of problems: the article was added by an ip editor back when ips could start articles. Perhaps these among the unsourced BLOPs should get first priority. Perhaps the ip added BLPs would have a higher yield of problems sourced or unsourced, than just the unsourced ones.

what we need, as I said somewhere among the twenty of so different places this discussion has been taking place, is to treat BLPs carefully in every respect. This was in front of the eyes of many editors, but never critically looked at. Every one of them is at fault--probably all of us are, for if Fram was careless in handling a BLP, who is likely to have done better? DGG ( talk ) 01:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this entirely. There is no substitute for care: even deletion, in this case, did not work, because the article was undeleted and sourced with the asylum claim intact. Chick Bowen 03:13, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Had not seen the IP involvement. Cleaned out more, and will copy this discussion to article's talk page. Power.corrupts (talk) 07:31, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

copied from [1] Power.corrupts (talk) 07:33, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Coup involvement

"Spymaster: my life in the CIA" says that Saycocie (by Augusst 1966) had been involved in "other coups" (p127), which could very well be Feb 1965. This source The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia says "General Phourni (Phoumi Nosavan) tried to recoup his lost empire by launching a countercoup on February 2, 1965." and also clearly says that it was a messy affair - so this could well be in 1965. The history of Laos in that period is exeptionally turbulent, with coups, succesful and failed, numerous factions fighting a civil war - and it requires an substantial effort to dig into this (beyond the hours I've already spent) that I'm not prepared to invest. I will say though, that the info seems very plausible, despite that improved sourcing, as always, is preferable. Bounleuth Saycocie also seems to have played at role in the history of Laos that make notable by WP standards. In summary, the article was started by an IP, but it is ok (now) Power.corrupts (talk) 21:23, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have supplied sourcing for 1965 coup attempt. If he was involved in other coups, etc., I will cover it in my upcoming rewrite of this biography. In other words, despair not; the cavalry is on the horizon.

Georgejdorner (talk) 19:51, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

1966 and 1973 coups added.Georgejdorner (talk) 20:55, 21 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]