Talk:Botswanan

Title

"Botswanan" is a faux pas, a little like calling an American a USAian. The article should point this out. See Talk:Botswana. --John (talk) 08:41, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually, "American" comes from combining America + the suffix -an. Botswana + the -an suffix = Botswanan. Same thing. A region's name + suffix for "pertaining to" = adjectival.

I propose that this article be redirected to Botswana. Any objections? --John (talk) 17:30, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I object to replacing this well-targeted disambiguation page with a redirect. This is a navigation aid. It is intended to help readers who type in "Botswanan" find what they are looking for. "Botswanan" is an actual exonym, that has more than one meaning. So we need to serve users looking up the various meanings, not just one. If their intent was the demonym (pertaining to ethnicity), then a redirect to the Botswana country article is out of context. In the case that the user intended the adjectival form, then a redirect to Tswana people is out of context. Therefore, in order to direct readers to the closest match to the context they are using, disambiguating the term is the way to go. In this sense, this page is accurately titled. The Transhumanist 23:12, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I have no objection to the term being clarified. But the disambiguation page is needed, as the term has more than one meaning (and therefore leads to more than one article). The Transhumanist 22:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

A redirect from this article on an erroneous term will serve perfectly well. --John (talk) 01:27, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Nope. Not good. I don't believe it is an erroneous term. I've copied the following thread, which covers the issue in detail, from my talk page for continuation here. The Transhumanist 07:03, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Botswanan

I see you wrote this dab page in 2008. What sources did you use? --John (talk) 08:34, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

The version I authored was http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Botswanan&oldid=246416521

What portion of that are you challenging? The Transhumanist 10:05, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

"Botswanan" is not a word. It is like "New Zealandan" or "Afghanistanian". The correct adjective is "Botswana" or "Batswana". I wondered if you had found a reputable source which repeats the error, because I have never seen one which does. --John (talk) 16:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

According to Webster's, it is precisely the right word, and they give examples of its use in mainstream media. See Webster's online entry. Not only that, but in its entry for "Botswana", Webster's says "'Botswana' is a common misspelling or typo for: Botswanan." Guess what? Now I get to whack you with a fish.  :) The Transhumanist 20:13, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but that tends to diminish my trust in Webster's rather than change my mind. The "mainstream media" it gives examples of are both Wikipedia, so that doesn't help us. Is that the best you could come up with? --John (talk) 20:18, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

As I thought. Our article suggests that this resource is largely drawn from web searches and user-generated sources and therefore would not qualify as a reliable source. --John (talk) 21:08, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

• This discussion may be of interest though. --John (talk) 20:21, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Noted. I couldn't help but notice that one participant in that discussion pointed out that the Oxford English Dictionary includes "Botswanan". See also Exonym and endonym. "Botswanan" comes up in searches of articles in Time Magazine, US News and World Report, Newsweek, The New York Times, The Washington Post, and even National Geographic. The term definitely exists, even if it isn't the most commonly used adjectival or demonym. The Transhumanist 21:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
    • I'd think of it like virii, the cod plural of virus. I suggest adding material on the correct demonym at the Botswana article then making Botswanan a redirect. If you could find a single reputable source that states that "Botswanan" is a correct adjective (as opposed to repeating the mistake), I might change my mind. --John (talk) 00:58, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
      • While the country's name may be a plural to the nationals, it's still a country name, which is subject to being suffixed, just like most places around the world. For example: American, Washingtonian, Russian, Italian, New Yorker, Londoner, Brazilian, Philadelphian, Roman, Vietnamese, Chinese, Taiwanese, Hawaiian, Scandinavian, Cuban, Venezuelan, etc. It's common to take the place name and add a suffix to make an adjectival or demonym. Botswana is no exception. The Transhumanist 08:34, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
    • From your reference to exonym and endonym, would it be fair to say you don't know that English is the official language of Botswana? --John (talk) 01:29, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I created the Languages of Botswana page, as a redirect to the languages section of the Demographics of Botswana article, where English is listed as "official". But with 2.1% of the population as speakers, one can't reasonably be expected to consider English the native tongue — for the vast majority of the population, practically speaking, it is a foreign language. Even if you do consider it "native", it's a local dialect, and I believe the terms exonym and endonym work in the context of dialects, as they pertain to foreign/domestic. It is primarily foreigners who use "Botswanan", making it an exonym.

I was able to access the Oxford English Dictionary through my local library account online, and it has the entry "Botswanan, n. and adj."

For the noun it says: "A native or inhabitant of the republic of Botswana, which became an independent state in 1966." It gives usage examples from N.Y. Times, Times, and Facts on File.

For the adjective it says: "Of or pertaining to Botswana. In Botswana itself the standard terms amongst residents are Motswana (and pl. Batswana) for the noun, and Tswana (q.v.) for the adjective." The examples it cites are from 1967 Britannica Bk. of Year, 1980 D. Hunt Times Yearbk., and Japan Times 21 May 1989.

For the etymology it says: "the place-name Botswana + -AN suffix."

The Oxford English Dictionary is an authoritative source.

I was also able to access the Britannica Public Library Edition, and a search of "Botswanan" returned 5 results from various articles in various volumes. Here are quotes from each of those sources:

1. From the Mogae, Festus entry in the Britannica Book of the Year 2010: "In 2009 former Botswanan president Festus Mogae continued to have an impact on politics but on a global scale as he took centre stage as a speaker or panelist at various international conferences"...
2. From the entry African Union in Encyclopedia Britannica: "In 1993 the OAU created a mechanism to engage in peacemaking and peacekeeping on the continent. In 1998 the OAU sponsored an international panel headed by former Botswanan president Ketumile Masire to investigate the genocide that took place in Rwanda in 1994; its report was released in 2000."
3. From the entry Head, Bessie Emery in Encyclopedia Britannica: "The Collector of Treasures (1977), a volume of short fiction, includes brief vignettes of traditional Botswanan village life, macabre tales of witchcraft, and passionate attacks on African male chauvinism."
4. From the Botswana entry from Year in Review 1998: "The spread of sexually transmitted diseases also skyrocketed; reportedly, some 30% of sexually active Botswanans aged 15-49 were infected with the HIV virus."
5. From the entry Commonwealth of Nations in the Britannica Book of the Year 1999: "A Commonwealth observer group led by Sir Lynden Pindling, a former prime minister of The Bahamas, went to Lesotho for the National Assembly elections on May 23. The group recorded concerns about the polling and disappointment that voting had not produced a multiparty parliament. Some proportional system of parliamentary representation was suggested. Later the government was almost overthrown. South African and Botswanan troops moved in. Serious fighting ensued, but the elected government survived."

I'm finding "Botswanan" all over the place, and it doesn't look like typos or word usage errors. The word appears to be a common exonym. The Transhumanist 06:47, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I copied this thread from my talk page, because it is more relevant here. Please continue this discussion here, not there. Thank you. The Transhumanist 07:19, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Concerning national varieties of English, WP:ENGVAR states "the English Wikipedia does not prefer any major national variety of the language. No variant is inherently more correct than another. Cultural clashes over vocabulary, spelling, and grammar can be avoided by using the following four guidelines." Please read WP:ENGVAR before replying here. Thank you. The Transhumanist 07:32, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

ENGVAR also states: "An article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation should use the English of that nation." which applies here. While it is possible to find even quite learned sources which repeat the error we are promulgating here, none of them will be from Botswana. This is somewhat indicative. "Botswanan" is like "virii" or "octopi"; it's a well-meaning mistake that will be encountered occasionally. Nonetheless, anybody who knows anything about the topic knows that it is a mistake. Wikipedia should not perpetuate mistakes. --John (talk) 15:47, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

• I have raised this matter at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Africa#Botswanan, again as it seems we cannot agree on the best course of action here. --John (talk) 16:48, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't see the purpose of having this as a disambig page, not because I have a problem with the word "Botswanan", but because as far as I can see there is nothing to disambiguate. The first item listed is "Something of, or related to Botswana" - fair enough - and the second is "A person from Botswana, or of Botswana descent", which seems to me to be entirely a subset of the first item. Disambiguation is for the situation when a title "refers to more than one topic covered by Wikipedia articles"; in this case both disambiguation items listed refer to the same topic - Botswana! Also, it seems to me that this page violates WP:DABNOT: "A disambiguation page is not a list of dictionary definitions.", as well as WP:MOSDAB: "Each entry should have exactly one navigable (blue) link to efficiently guide readers to the most relevant article for that use of the ambiguous term. Do not wikilink any other words in the line." - htonl (talk) 18:17, 29 July 2011 (UTC)