Talk:Borg (drink)

What is the Jack Borg Cooking Show?

Curious... Dipthong01 (talk) 04:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

This dates much earlier than 2018

I don't have any documented proof of this, this drink was popular at my university in the late 1980s.

This is nothing but a new name for "frat punch" or "jungle juice" dispensed in gallon jugs. The article mentions that "borgs" came to national attention from the University of Massachusetts Amherst. Well, I was there in 2004, and can attest that Kool Aid mixers were absolutely standard fare at frat and sorority parties. There's probably an unbroken lineage from the punch bowl of old. "Frat punch" exists for reasons that are timeless: underage students need to procure alcohol in a concentrated, easy-to-conceal form (vodka), which can be mixed on-site into a cheap, palatable beverage. Xanthis3 (talk) 18:04, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia lacks a solid entry on college party-type mixed drinks

A borg is essentially self-prepared jungle juice — a Kool-Aid or Gatorade-based mixed drink, sometimes with added electrolytes or other "secret ingredients" (powdered caffeine, etc). The only significant difference is that it is usually self-mixed in a gallon jug rather than prepared in a larger batch. All of the supposed health benefits of the water and electrolytes in borgs have been made for decades (mostly tongue-in-cheek) about jungle juice more generally. In this sense, the article should probably be rolled into the entry on jungle juice.

However, a brief look at Wiki's Jungle Juice entry shows that it too is poorly developed, and mostly talks about "true" jungle juice which was home-fermented, or moonshine alcohol more generally. The application of the term "jungle juice" to modern frat punch or party juice mixers was always a tongue-in-cheek usage of the term. Therefore maybe that article should be rolled into this one.

Either way, Wikipedia seems to lack any decent entry on college party punch-type mixed drinks, which is a shame because such drinks do have a unique history and culture all their own, driven by the desire of college party-throwers to get very large groups of people drunk relatively cheaply while operating under the constraint of needing the alcohol itself (frequently illicit) to be in a concentrated and easily secreted form. Xanthis3 (talk) 03:58, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't mean to belittle your edits, but I don't think it's pertinent for this article to emphasize "frat punch" (or as you previously called it "frat juice") as a synonym of jungle juice; linking to jungle juice should be sufficient, and if you want, you can expound on jungle juice nomenclature in the jungle juice article. Also watch out for duplicate citations; you can cite a previously named source by using <ref name="other-refs-name" />. Hope we can reach a consensus here! BanjoZebra (talk) 04:07, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Well hello, BanjoZebra! Nice to meet you. I see this article is your creation, and far be it from me to disrupt your vision for it. I misspoke when I said frat juice. And thank you for the help with the cites. I have three overall concerns about this entry which I am attempting to address:

(1). What makes a borg a borg? The borg is not a new drink recipe: it contains jungle juice, only self-mixed. It is very important that a reader understand that it's only the method of mixing and consumption that makes it a "borg."

Reading this article, I was initially quite confused on this point, thinking that the borg was causing medical problems due to its unique (and uniquely dangerous) ingredients.

(2). Risks and claimed benefits not unique. The claims about electrolytes, hydration, etc., are not new to the borg. These claims have been made about frat punch for decades, and have been debunked by health experts for decades in warnings to students and parents.

(Nor, I must say, are the streams of ambulances transporting often dozens of unconscious UMass students to Cooley Dickinson Hospital after the annual "Blarney Blowout" or the "Hobart Hoedown" a new phenomenon.)

(3). "Party juice and frat punch." I'm sure "jungle juice" is a common term in some places. But at the place that made borgs infamous, I rarely heard it. Frat punch is a more common term for the drink that would be recognized there and in New England more generally.

"linking to jungle juice should be sufficient"

I agree that the current sentence structure is clunky. It doesn't read smoothly and the excess cites are awkward. I would like to de-clunkify it. Maybe the synonyms (and cites) can be transferred over to the Jungle Juice page as you suggest.

My only wish is that it is clear what a borg contains.

If the Jungle Juice entry were better-written, I would certainly feel differently. As it is, that entry does such a poor job of defining the drink and doesn't have a section that clearly refers to the familiar Kool-Aid / Gatorade mixers of college frat parties.

If you'll lend your support to the creation of a section on the Jungle Juice page, and help to communicate with any BanjoZebras of that page to explain what we're trying to accomplish, I'd be happy to do it that way. Or, if you have other suggestions as to how we can better make these improvements, I am all ears. Xanthis3 (talk) 06:13, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

It’s really not the same as “jungle juice but self-mixed” though. I think of jungle juice as an unknown mixture of various liquors and mixers arbitrarily thrown together, whereas a borg has a typical suggested recipe of vodka, water, flavor mix, and electrolytes, which can vary but is clearly defined differently from jungle juice. (Also, you claim the article does not make it clear what a borg contains, which is not true.) It would be considered original research to assert that borgs and jungle juice are the same thing in different form factors, or to assert that the health risks of borgs also apply to jungle juice (which, sure they probably do, but that’s not relevant to this article).

Again, this seems like a problem for the jungle juice article and not for the borg article. The mention of “frat punch” or “frat juice” has no real place here, especially not with the three citations you included that don’t mention borgs. Please do not re-add that to the article, as it is not directly relevant to borgs.

I’m not trying to start an edit war here, I’m just trying to maintain the quality of the article amid a surge in pageviews following the release of the CNN article. Thanks for your understanding. BanjoZebra (talk) 13:27, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

BanjoZebra, the edit-warring really has to stop. You have just reverted my concise and fully-referenced contribution for the fifth (5th) time, in spite of an ongoing conversation on the talk page. It feels to me like you're being personally possessive of the page, and insisting that you and you alone be allowed to curate it. As to your points:

- A borg is frat punch (a/k/a jungle juice) in a gallon jug. It is not a fundamentally different or new type of mixed drink. The references fully support this, focusing on the advantages/disadvantages of self-mixing. This fact is important and deserves mention.

- The Jungle Juice entry has its own issues. Let's focus on this entry before we fix the rest of Wikipedia.

- "a borg has a typical suggested recipe of vodka, water, flavor mix, and electrolytes" Right: frat punch a/k/a jungle juice. Kool-Aid or other powdered drink mix (assuming nobody wants to shell out for real fruit) spiked with vodka or rum, often with electrolytes and/or soda.

- "I think of jungle juice as an unknown mixture of various liquors and mixers arbitrarily thrown together." Maybe, but not as the term is used in the context of college drinking parties. Xanthis3 (talk) 22:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

The CNN source does not attest to the statement “a borg is jungle juice in a gallon jug”, because that is not true. Rather, the CNN article says that borgs are “the new version of jungle juice”, comparing and contrasting the two because they are different things.

If you somehow find a reliable source that attests to borgs and jungle juice being identical aside from their form factor, you can cite that; otherwise, please revert your edit because it constitutes original research. BanjoZebra (talk) 22:40, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

BanjoZebra. Now we're narrowing in on it.

The new version of something is a version by definition. Further, the CNN article goes on to explain just what the distinction is: “Instead of making a party-sized mixed drink in a huge 5-gallon drink dispenser, a giant storage tub, or even the grossest trend, which was making jungle juice in a sink or bathtub, everyone has their own personal drink” (emphasis added).

As with all mixed drinks, Jungle Juice has no single fixed recipe that is graven in stone.

I noticed and appreciated you not undoing my contribution while we discuss. That would be consistent Wiki practice of using the best available references while searching for better ones, and also consistent with the convention of not making changes to a contribution while an attempt to seek consensus is underway on a talk page. Thank you.

I'm sure there are more references since the broad recipe is frat punch, any way you cut it. I'll look for some.Xanthis3 (talk) 23:31, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with this interpretation, I think it’s pretty clear that when they say “the new version of jungle juice” they mean it in the sense of “borgs are the new jungle juice”, i.e. borgs occupy the same niche that jungle juice has previously occupied. BanjoZebra (talk) 23:43, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

To put it as the Mashable article does: "The borg is, effectively, a rebranded, tweaked version of jungle juice. But instead of being a communal thing, it's a personal drink." Exactly what CNN says, in so many words. Xanthis3 (talk) 23:48, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Sure, this is again saying that borgs and jungle juice are similar, which I agree with. This is what I was going for with the few compromise edits I added, suggesting that they are similar but different in key ways. I’m totally fine with saying that borgs are similar to jungle juice and punch, but I don’t want the article to assert that they are the same thing. BanjoZebra (talk) 23:54, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

No, it's saying that it's "rebranded" jungle juice. Or, a "tweaked version" (i.e., a version) of jungle juice. Or, to put it more bluntly as the third source does, "this falsely fruity concoction has been around for years under the name 'Jungle Juice.'" Xanthis3 (talk) 00:29, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure I buy The Manual's definition of jungle juice being "a mixture of vodka and a cheap, fruity mixer such as Kool-Aid"—this seems to contradict most other sources' definitions that jungle juice is an improvised combination of alcohol and mixers, and seems to only serve the author's argument that the borg is unoriginal. Sure, there are some instances of jungle juice that taste like some instances of borgs, but as a whole they are two different forms of party drink, and it is reductive to call them the same.

I'm genuinely wondering, what do you have against the sentence I added in the first paragraph of the lead? It seems to be a solid compromise of both of our points, drawing comparisons between borgs, jungle juice, and punch, while still mentioning that they are different:

A borg is designed to be held and consumed by one individual throughout a party, distinguishing it from similar party drinks such as jungle juice and punch.

BanjoZebra (talk) 00:56, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Isn't a rebrand something else? Little confused here. Not trying to pick sides, just trying to settle things… Dipthong01 (talk) 01:11, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Rebranding means, basically, same product new label. Cambridge dictionary.

You say you don't buy the source's definition of jungle juice. But, to my mind, "a mixture of vodka and a cheap, fruity mixer" (from The Manual) is basically the same as your definition: "an improvised combination of alcohol and mixers."

You can't just define jungle juice out of existence by saying its a "any mystery drink." The sources are all pretty clear that jungle juice (in the college context) is a essentially a cheap fruit-flavored mixer with a high alcohol concentration, usually intended for bulk consumption at a party.

"and seems to only serve the author's argument that the borg is unoriginal"

Join the club! I have my own beefs with the newspaper writers. I personally think they are highly incentivized to make it seem that they have a scoop on a totally new phenomenon. But, as they say, "Go tell it to the priest."

"I'm genuinely wondering, what do you have against the sentence I added in the first paragraph of the lead?"

Sure. My objection is that it puts the contents of the borg outside the umbrella definition of jungle juice, saying instead that they are merely "similar." But just like an SUV is a version of a "passenger vehicle" within the broader category of "motor vehicle", so the borg is a version of "jungle juice" within the broader category of "mixed drinks." The new version yes, but a version nonetheless.

"Sure, there are some instances of jungle juice that taste like some instances of borgs, but as a whole they are two different forms of party drink, and it is reductive to call them the same"

This is really the heart of the issue. Let me ask it this way: suppose we took a borg and poured the contents into a laboratory beaker. Then we took some other jungle juice and poured it into another beaker, and had the ingredients chemically analyzed. What is it about the borg that places it outside of the broader definition of "jungle juice"?

Also: would you be happier if, instead of saying that it "is jungle juice" I instead say, "it is a version of jungle juice"? Xanthis3 (talk) 01:47, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

What makes a borg a borg?

A BORG (Black-Out Rage Gallon) is a frat punch a/k/a jungle juice drink in a gallon jug. Broadly, Kool-Aid or other powdered drink mix (assuming nobody wants to pay for real fruit) heavily spiked with vodka or rum, and often with added electrolytes and/or soda. Occasionally Sunny-D is used. In essence, a cheap fruit-flavored punch.

The essence of a BORG seems to be that:

(a) It's a gallon, and

(b) Instead of being dispensed from a communal vat, it is self-mixed in previously-sealed gallon jugs of water, thus allowing the drinker to control the ingredients and alcohol concentration.

In other words the BORG doesn't represent any particular innovation in terms of ingredients or recipe. The news articles focus on the advantages / disadvantages of self-mixing.

That's the way it looks to me. Are there other similarities? Other differences? Xanthis3 (talk) 22:59, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

One of the big differences in my eye is the water content of a borg – as someone who has consumed both jungle juice and a borg, the borg was considerably more watered down by the nature of leaving half of the gallon of water in the jug. Also in general, jungle juice is more nebulous in nature, largely defined by the fact that you don’t know what’s inside, and possibly containing any combination of liquors and mixers.

I agree that borgs and jungle juice are similar, but I still don’t think it makes sense to assert that “borg = jungle juice in jug” without a source attesting to that fact. BanjoZebra (talk) 23:13, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

But that's the whole point: the borg is personal, so you choose how much water to leave in your jug. If you shared it communally, it would be jungle juice. Xanthis3 (talk) 00:00, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Part of the borg “recipe” is to leave water in the jug though. I’ve never heard of water being an ingredient in jungle juice. BanjoZebra (talk) 00:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, of course water is an ingredient in jungle juice: you need something to mix the Kool-Aid powder into. The stuff's often made by the bathtub-full, so unless Warren Buffet is throwing the party, a base ingredient has to be flavored water.

If you'll permit me to step back and take a bird's-eye view of the whole situation for a moment, I would like to suggest that the article is made more relevant by the fact that Borg's are defined not by new ingredients, but by the new method of preparation and consumption. Why? Because if the Borg was just a new drink recipe, then it's like "so what." But its significance lies in the fact that it represents a different drinking culture: preparing and mixing the drinks individually, not communally. This opens up a whole conversation about Gen-Z drinking culture, no? Xanthis3 (talk) 00:20, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I think the article makes this point pretty clear already! But it doesn’t change the fact that there is a pretty established list of borg ingredients, contrary to jungle juice. BanjoZebra (talk) 00:30, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, if we're in basic agreement, the only worry being that my 2½ lines of text are superfluous, then I think a reasonable solution is that we tolerate my concise and well-referenced contribution.

You said, "there is a pretty established list of borg ingredients, contrary to jungle juice."

That just means it's a specific version of jungle juice, which is exactly what the references say. Although I'm not sure I (yet) buy that the borg has such a highly-specific recipe. There seem to be a variety of recipes all centering around the basic jungle juice. Again, it's the manner of consumption that seems to make a borg a borg. Xanthis3 (talk) 00:50, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not that highly specific, but it's generally more specific than that of jungle juice. BanjoZebra (talk) 00:58, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, so it's a specific version of jungle juice. Like the "James Bond martini" (if there is such a recipe). I'm beginning to feel like we're in vigorous agreement. Xanthis3 (talk) 01:16, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean, the general ingredients for a borg are widely attested to, whereas the general ingredients of jungle juice are much, much broader, so it's not very helpful to define borg as an instance of jungle juice. BanjoZebra (talk) 01:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I think we are basically in agreement on this.

"the general ingredients for a borg are widely attested to, whereas the general ingredients of jungle juice are much, much broader"

I mean, I'm not really sure that's true. Most of the recipes I've seen for borgs look like garden variety jungle juice to me (getting progressively fancier the more time, money, and fresh fruit you have on your hands). But arguendo, let's say it's true that the borg has a more specific recipe: I would say bingo!! That's exactly what I'm saying!

The Wiki entry for truck says, "A truck is a motor vehicle designed to transport freight . . ." In other words, the truck is a version of the much broader category of "motor vehicle." It's not "similar" to a motor vehicle, it is a motor vehicle.

We agree on this.

"it's not very helpful . . ."

That's where I disagree. Just like Wiki is sure to point out that a truck is a kind of motor vehicle, so we should point out that a borg is jungle juice (or a variety of jungle juice). Because that's what it is, and it helps the reader to know how to categorize it. Xanthis3 (talk) 02:22, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

(notified off wiki) What would you say the difference between jungle juice and a cocktail is? Both are combinations of alcohols and mixers. Is the difference the "improvisational" element? You could improvise and invent a new type of cocktail. Does that make that cocktail a jungle juice? A borg is a type of mixed drink and so is a cocktail and so is jungle juice.

Also: jungle juice, per the Wikipedia article, is usually served for group consumption. A borg is a personal drink. These two mixed drinks don't even serve the same niche. A borg isn't a jungle juice. adanicklmao (talk) 16:00, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Borg–jungle juice dispute

Here's a synopsis of the above two sections, which I've linked on Wikipedia:Third opinion:

• @Xanthis3
  • Argues that borgs are not a new drink, but rather the same as jungle juice, distinguished only by being self-mixed by the drinker in a gallon jug
  • Suggests that the health risks and supposed benefits of borgs have applied for years to jungle juice and frat punch
  • Interprets the CNN article claim that borgs are "the new version of jungle juice" to mean that borgs are, in fact, jungle juice
  • Has been repeatedly adding variations of the sentence "A borg is jungle juice (sometimes also called "frat punch") in a gallon jug." to the article
• @BanjoZebra
  • Argues that borgs and jungle juice, while similar, are two distinct forms of party drink, where the general framework for ingredients in a borg is fairly well-established, whereas jungle juice is largely defined by the fact that the drinker does not know what's inside
  • Interprets the CNN article claim that borgs are "the new version of jungle juice" to mean that borgs occupy the same niche that jungle juice has historically occupied, not that borgs = jungle juice
  • Has been repeatedly reverting Xanthis3's edit due to tenuous sourcing, excessive citations relating to "frat punch", and seemingly original research, instead adding the compromise line "A borg is designed to be held and consumed by one individual throughout a party, distinguishing it from similar party drinks such as jungle juice and punch." in the article's lead.

BanjoZebra (talk) 17:43, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

1) Previous talk page discussions indicate @Xanthis3 seem to have some emphasis on personal experience; that can lead to WP:Synth. 2) Not sure some of the refs used by @Xanthis3 as WP:RS; suggesting to presented those at WP:RSN notice board, hopefully you will get more community inputs at WP:RSN. 3) In Wikipedia usually WP:ONUS is on who wishes to add / retain the content, so un til, talk page consensus is achived as per WP:DR, I suppose / advice, let article version agreed by User:BanjoZebra be default version. 4) Pinging @Beland: if wish to weigh in since seem to have been involved in last important activity at the article Alcohol consumption by youth in the United States as derived from XTool. 5) If things do not get sorted out with above then go for WP:RfC. Avoid any edit wars, Happy editing. Bookku (talk) 15:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Heh, personally I have no expertise on this subject, and I don't drink, but I can help with sourcing. Tracing the CNN story to the expert source it is relying on, I found this story. It clearly asserts that jungle juice is served communally and typically prepared by the host (thus making the precise mixture unknown) whereas a BORG is prepared and consumed by the guest. Everyone seems to agree this is a defining characteristic.

Given those definitions, I think it's not logical to say someone at a frat party put "jungle juice" in their BORG, unless they filled their gallon jug from a communal mixture and labelled it with a BORG pun. Even then, this stretches the definition of BORG to the point where some people might disagree this qualifies. (It's a fuzzy concept.) The article doesn't address this scenario, and it's probably best to leave that question to drunken party conversations.

As to the question of whether or not "jungle juice" and "BORG" have the same ingredients, this history of jungle juice shows that jungle juice pre-dates Gatorade and powdered mixers (which sources say are typically assimilated by BORGs) and is more likely to have fruit juice and other ingredients available in the South Pacific during WWII. Actually being made in the jungle makes it more likely the "jungle juice" label was applied, even if the ingredients stray further from typical preparations, especially modern ones. I'm sure some modern jungle juices have the same mix of ingredients as some BORGs, but it does not seem safe to say this is categorically true. I edited the article to say "which may have similar ingredients" to point out the overlap without implying it is an exact overlap. (Kind of like the difference between buffet food and ordering entrees off a menu - you can get a lot of food via either delivery mechanism, but some foods you can only get one way.)

It does seem that the idea of a BORG is derived from or inspired by the idea of jungle juice or spiked punch. I edited the article to point out that the latter are older. It's possible some sources assert a direct inspiration and that language could be made more specific. It might be interesting, if anyone is motivated to so so, to research the invention of the BORG, though given that it was probably done in the context of illegal underage drinking, it might be impossible to identify the actual inventor and read about what they were thinking at the time. -- Beland (talk) 19:45, 27 May 2024 (UTC)