Talk:Bonaire national football team

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Football: National Low‑importance

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National football team??

How exactly can Bonaire have a national football team while Bonaire is not a country? PPP (talk) 10:36, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

FIFA

In an edit I removed reference to the possibility of FIFA membership, when an association is from a country on its way to independence. While this was specifically stated for Aruba in 1986, it is not for Bonaire, and the "special municipality" status is not regarded an intermediate stage in independence. So it seems not very useful to speculate on a situation for which there is no indication that it will occur. (I asked for a ref on this speculation last year, but the citation request was removed; stating that the FIFA statutes were a sufficient ref, but they don't state anything about Bonaire; of course). L.tak (talk) 17:41, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

FIFA

1. In regards to the page having "national" in the title:

"National football team" is the accepted name and format on Wikipedia for any football team that is a member of a confederation (and some that are not} such as CONCACAF. Although the terms nation, state, and country are often used interchangeably, they are not the same thing. Further explanation can be found here: Nation vs. State As explained, a nation is a group of people who share the same culture but do not have sovereignty.

2. As for the title translations of Dutch: "Bonairiaans voetbalelftal" and Papiamentu, "Selekshon Boneriano di futbòl", you are absolutely correct that they do not literally translate as "Bonaire national football team." However, they are correct in that they follow the local naming conventions in the respective languages. For instance, the Dutch call their national football team Het Nederlands Elftal. Although Elftal does not literally mean national football team, the name follows local conventions.

3. As for the portion of the text that describe potential FIFA membership, I have altered the wording and adding more information so that gaining FIFA membership seems more like simply a possibility but not very imminent. You are incorrect in stating that a territory has to be fully independent to be FIFA members. As referenced in the text, 18 members of FIFA, including 10 from the CONCACAF region, are not fully independent. The text essentially says that the FIFA statutes allow for a non-independent territory to become FIFA members with the home FA's support. The support from the KNVB is then documented. The portion of the statute that says "has not yet gained independence" is misleading as it does not say that independence must be imminent or that a territory will ever get it. It simply means that they have not gained full independence.

I appreciate the discussion and simply wish to present a full scope of the situation in Bonaire. Thanks

--Gri3720 (talk) 22:07, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Bonaire is not a nation. It is a municipality of the Netherlands and is as much a nation as Amsterdam. Bonaire's status is not that of an island that "hasn't gained [yet] fully independence", it is really nothing more than a municipality, called "special municipality" or "public body" in the sense that it's not part of a province and hence also carries out some additional tasks normally performed by the province, but it is fully part of the Netherlands, and has no other special status within this country. Bonaire being a municipality of the Netherlands is not something that is under dispute or evaluation, and there is no demand for or reason to assume that Bonaire will gain independence as a country in any near future. This makes it impossible for Bonaire by itself to become a FIFA member. The FIFA members that are not fully independent at least have some sort of autonomy, like for example Curaçao has. This is essentially different from Bonaire: Curaçao is a country within the Kingdom of the Netherlands, Bonaire is not. For that matter, the "national football team" for Bonaire, is the Dutch national football team.

The Dutch term "Nederlands elftal" indeed doesn't contain the word "national", but it does feature the word "Dutch", in this context referring to being "of the Netherlands" (as a whole). Since this term refers to the country, it can be translated as "Dutch national team" ("elftal", for non-Dutch speakers, being the Dutch word for "football team", literal translation "eleven-count", referring to the number of players per team allowed on the field). "Bonairiaans elftal" does not refer to a country but to a municipality. PPP (talk) 12:12, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Gri3720. Although Bonaire is not a de jure nation, when it comes to competitive football, as far as CONCACAF is concerned, it is a de facto nation. the convention on enWiki is to refer to teams competing in official continental / world competitions as ... national football team'. I think in this instance it would be more confusing to the average reader to have Bonaire called by a different name than not. Fenix down (talk) 12:23, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is not de facto a nation. It's just not a nation. Not in any way. CONCACAF is not an authority when it comes to deciding what's a nation or not. The way I made it, there was a redirect from Bonaire national football team to Bonaire football team. I don't see how it could cause confusion. The latter title clearly indicates it's the football team of Bonaire. PPP (talk) 13:21, 23 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

regarding the fifa membership... I find it problematic to classify Bonaire as an entity that had not yet gained independence (it is not on a course there, and isn't planning to, as also PPP indicated) and sourcing such a statement on a source (FIFA) that doesn't mention Bonaire, and stating that we should ignore the exact wording of the source (regarding the "yet"). That amounts to too much association to keep it in and thus original research on interpretation of a primary source. Note also that Fifa may have changed its stance wrt dependent territories as the IOC did (now new dependent territories are not allowed anymore within IOC) and recent FIFA members did so through i) succession: Curacao, ii) being really going for independence (new Caledonia) or III) being sovereign state (ssudan); and thus we have no recent membership of dependent territories not on a course to independence (let alone territories that are part of the main territory of a country). I am happy to be proven wrong, but inclusion requires secondary sources.L.tak (talk) 12:50, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I checked the FIFA statutes of 2000, and they are indeed quite different from the ones presently in force; as in IOC in 2000 without the independence requirement. So the argument that FIFA already has very many non-FIFA members seems to have no bearing on the possible accession of Bonaire. L.tak (talk) 19:44, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

another point: Gri states the support of knvb is documented. That s great of course, but I seems support for football on Bonaire, rather than authorization of FIFA membership or the Bonaire team. Do we have documentation for such support, otherwise it may be best to move this to the Bonaire association page... L.tak (talk) 12:17, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The good thing of this discussion is that we get the facts right. I have now changed the FIFA position to reflect the findings (the authorisation of KNVB, the info on the other non independent countries). Still I would prefer to remove this info as non relevant to this team, but I accept to leave the FIFA info in, as long as it is factual in relation to Bonaire... I admit this is my own share of OR, but I am quite sure at least we have the facts right now and I think it is an acceptable alternative to outright removal... L.tak (talk)

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