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Talk:Bombing of Lübeck in World War II

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aerial bombing of cities following the Coventry Blitz

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See

There were dozens of raids before this one for example the nights imidiatly before

  • 25/26 March 1942 Esseb 254 aircraft - 192 Wellingtons, 26 Stirlings, 20 Manchesters, 9 Hampdens, 7 Lancasters - in the largest force sent to 1 target so far.
  • 26/27 March 1942 Essen 104 Wellingtons and 11 Stirlings. 10 Wellingtons and 1 Stirling lost.
  • 28/29 March 1942 Lübeck 234 aircraft - 146 Wellingtons, 41 Hampdens, 26 Stirlings, 21 Manchesters. 12 aircraft - 7 Wellingtons, 3 Stirlings, 1 Hampden, 1 Manchester

So it was not the first one nor had it anything to do with the Coventry raid which was November 14, 1940 a year and half before after which there had been many other bombings by both sides.

Kresspahl what is the source you based this article on? --Philip Baird Shearer 21:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My sources were up now the German local history ones, for this reason I think we are getting into a useful discussion here. Reading the RAF diary, it was "the first mayor success for the bomber command". Thats probably the understanding, not the first raid, but the first one, that was a success (and noticed as such). On the other hand the Essen raids were raids against Krupp in Essen. The raid in Lübeck was against civilians, residential quarters, mediaeval timber framed houses and churches. As such truely the first under the new directive.--Kresspahl 10:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Lubeck was the first raid organised under the leadership of Arthur Harris and he used the raid to demonstrate to the British leadership what a bombing force of a reasonable size aiming at a city itself could do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.145.115.33 (talk) 09:12, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Lubeck clearly had nothing to do with Coventry because the RAF was bombing German cities in May 1940, four months before the Blitz began in response. (2A00:23C4:638A:5000:EC96:E0CB:FEC1:DA4B (talk) 15:54, 22 June 2017 (UTC))[reply]

Pictures

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Are there better RAF pictures of the damages in Lübeck which could be uploaded to commons?--Kresspahl 10:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t like this Umpydumps (talk) 15:48, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sources on casualties and damage

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As a general rule those who have to deal with the damage and the casualties tend to be more reliable sources than those who inflicted them from 2,000 feet up in the air. However if there is no source given then it is better to use those supplied by the RAF than numbers which have no source (see WP:V and WP:RS). -- The RAF tends to be better on their own operational derails like the number of bombers, tonnage dropped etc). -- Philip Baird Shearer 23:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

True, but I had a problem activating the reference, up to now all figures and statements are from "Lübeck's history". Getting to the next source, I will name it first.--Kresspahl 09:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
German local sources report a minor incident on 25 August 1944 against Lübeck industry with 110 dead including 39 "Zwangsarbeiter".- Helmut von der Lippe:1939-1949 Zeitzeugen berichten: so haben wir es erlebt. Lübecker Nachrichten, Lübeck 1989, p.24.--Kresspahl 13:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If it was the RAF then it would have been a night raid. 25/26 August 1944 "36 Mosquitos to Berlin and 22 to five other targets" but that seems like a lot of carnage for four or five Mosquitos. So if it was a daylight raid is more likely to be a USAAF (see the RAF Bommer Command diary entry for 27 August 1944 Cologne "the first major raid by Bomber Command to Germany in daylight since 12 August 1941". --Philip Baird Shearer 14:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In wwii combat chronology (pdf) USAF History Publications three raids are reported on Lubeck:

  • FRIDAY, 25 AUGUST 1944 ... STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Four missions are flown.
    Mission 570: 1,191 bombers and 708 fighters make visual bombing attacks against aircraft component plants, Luftwaffe experimental stations and the synthetic oil industry; 18 bombers and 7 fighters are lost; numbers in parenthesis indicate number of bombers attacking the target:
    1. 435 B-24s are dispatched to hit aircraft component plants at Rostock (116), Schwerin (106), Wismar (91) and Lubeck (81); 11 others hit Grossenbrode Airfield and 4 hit targets of opportunity; 5 B-24s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 55 damaged; 5 airmen are WIA and 64 MIA. Escort is provided by 243 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 11-2-3 aircraft; 1 P-51 is lost.
  • MONDAY, 6 NOVEMBER 1944 ... STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 704: 1,131 bombers and 802 fighters in 6 forces make PFF attacks on the oil industry in W Germany; 5 bombers and 5 fighters are lost:
    1. 291 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Harburg (142) and Rhenania (138) oil refineries at Hamburg; 3 others hit the Lubeck oil refinery at Hamburg; 4 B-17s are lost and 103 damaged; 2 airmen are KIA, 2 WIA and 36 MIA. Escort is 238 of 258 P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA) and 1 damaged beyond repair.
  • THURSDAY, 3 MAY 1945 ... TACTICAL OPERATIONS ... Ninth Air Force: 132 A-26s (on the final 9th Bombardment Division raid) bomb the Stod, Czechoslovakia ammunition plant. The IX Tactical Air Command escorts the A-26s and C-47s and flies airfield cover; the XIX Tactical Air Command patrols the US Third Army front, flies armed reconnaissance over Germany, Austria, and Czechoslovakia in the frontline areas and around Kiel and Lubeck, Germany, and escorts the A-26s; the XXIX Tactical Air Command (Provisional) escorts C-47s, flies sweeps, and hits shipping in the Kiel-Lubeck area.

However the 6 November 44 raid was on the "Lubeck oil refinery at Hamburg" not Lubeck and the raids by the USAAF Ninth Air Force were only in the region of Lubeck and were tactical strikes to support front line troops. But anyway this confirms that the raid on the 25 August was by 81 aircraft of the the USAAF Eight Air Force. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 11:08, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted picture

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Joseph Krautwald's The Mother

There is no indication anywhere in the article that this pic of a statue has any relevance whatsoever to the subject of the article. It may have relevance. The person who added it might know what the relevance is, but someone who does not live in Lübeck has no idea whatsoever why an article about the bombing of the city is headed up by a nice picture of a mother. Is it the Virgin Mary? Did the statue survive the bombing? Was it damaged in the bombing? I s it a memorial to the bombing? What on earth does it have to do with the subject of the article?

Even if the statue is relevant, the statue is not the topic of the article, and doesn't belong in top place.

Amandajm (talk) 12:20, 20 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that this statue is "of topic". It is a memorial for the victims of the 1942 bombing of Lübeck. I have added an English translation in the figure description. I agree that it should not be at top place in the article. --Furfur (talk) 12:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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