Talk:Boho, County Fermanagh

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Boho, County Fermanagh received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Various types of moles, rats and shrews (sic)

There are no moles in Ireland. There is now only one species of rat (brown). There are two species of shrews (one recently introduced), only one of which (the pygmy shrew) is found in Fermanagh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.145.103.145 (talk) 20:41, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Noon's Hole

I was thinking about extracting the Noon's Hole section and creating a new article for the cave; I think it's a major enough feature to warrant its own article. Anyone against? I have a copy of the Caves of Fermanagh & Cavan so should be able to add a few facts, figures and citations to it... might even be able to root out some photos somewhere... Fattonyni (talk) 23:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can see the noons hole page , good job, well done . I think there is a famous illustration on the web of the shaft that might also look good on the page . Thanks again . Youngbohemian (talk) 17:04, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I think it turns out pretty nice in its own article. I hope my alterations to the text were ok! Also need to condense the Noon's reference in the Boho article to a couple of lines, with a link pointing to the "main" Noon's article, but I'll leave that for now. Yes a pic would be great, I might have a shot of my own somewhere, but I'm not sure how good mine would be off the top of my head. Fattonyni (talk) 17:57, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Removed links

I've removed a couple of dead links from the External links section, also this link (Boho Community Association) because it seems to point to a page that has no content. This can be reinstated at another time if the linked page begins to actually be used as a web site for the Boho community. Fattonyni (talk) 13:14, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Places of interest

I've consolidated the Other places into previous headings in this section -- I'm guessing the "nearby Church of Ireland" with its ancient doorway (described in the Boho High Cross section) is the same as the one mentioned at Farnaconell? Feel free to change back if this isn't the case. Moved mention of the 12th Century high cross into the main section on the 1000-yr-old cross. Fattonyni (talk) 18:14, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stub Class

Will the article now be able to be rated up from Stub class Youngbohemian (talk) 13:31, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've submitted the article for peer review, and listed it on WikiProject Northern Ireland/Assessment and Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland/Assessment. This is the standard way for articles to be reassessed; we'll see what comments some of the editors leave over the next week or few. Fattonyni (talk) 15:58, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done See WP:IE/A#Requesting an assessment. WPNI should be the same and I don't know that thyey are very active. ww2censor (talk) 19:02, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments ww2censor. Some reviewing notes have also been submitted at Wikipedia:Peer review/Boho, County Fermanagh/archive1, so far just automated comments, but I'll see if I can attend to some of the issues raised. Fattonyni (talk) 17:25, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, the article has now moved up to a B rated article in the assessment by WikiProject Ireland which I think is a fair assessment. Youngbohemian (talk) 08:38, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think the article could well reach a higher standard than this if the last couple of issues can be addressed -- I've sorted a couple of the copyediting bits, but the main issue highlighted by both reviews was the lack of a comprehensive lead section. I've made an attempt at this (see latest update), but you might want to make some changes Youngbohemian; I'd say you're a better writer than I am, given your contributions so far!

If you get time, could you take a look at the issues regarding citations in the first paragraphs of the Flora & Folk tales sections (see WP:IE/A#Requesting an assessment)? You'd have a better idea of where the statistics etc. came from. Fattonyni (talk) 17:18, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Improvements to article

I read the comments on the article. Yes there are a lot of sensible suggestions. Flora data came from the NICS 2000 survey written in various scientific journals and reports by Alan Cooper at the University of Ulster and Tommy McCann, the rest was from reports by the Department of the Environment Northern Ireland and from the scheduled species data books. I must go back through it and cite more but at the time i wanted to have the bones of an article which I thought I would have time to go back to. The folk tales , I think there are only a couple of these which are from the web but I have added some more source data. Glasgow had an exhibition of Glasgow's around the world when it was city of culture in 1990. By listing other places called Boho around the world, I was trying to approach the subject of historical emigration patterns from Boho and if there was a connection with other places in the world to the place in fermanagh. Youngbohemian (talk) 15:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References

I do not want to keep listing the same references in the reference section as the list is getting too long and a lot of them are duplications, how do i achieve this ? Youngbohemian (talk) 12:15, 25 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Youngbohemian, I've been away for a bit but should be able to contribute a bit more again. There are some instances where I've already used this technique in the article -- essentially, you use the <ref></ref> tag as normal for the first instance of a particular citation within the text, ensuring also to give it a name, e.g:

 <ref name="AuthorName1962">{{Citation |etc |etc |etc}}</ref>

Then for future usage of the same reference, just add the tag:

 <ref name="Authorname1962" />

Note the fact that only one <ref> tag is used instead of an opening tag and a closing tag, and that the forward slash "/" is placed inside the closing bracket of the tag. This is standard XHTML web code behaviour. Fattonyni (talk) 13:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, I meant to provide examples of where I've already used this -- see citations 1 and 2 in the lead-in text. They both route to the same reference using the above technique. Make sure that you use the "name" tag fairly descriptively to make it easier for you (and other editors) to understand -- the names must also be unique for each point of reference; e.g. if you use the same name while declaring three different references in the text, then two of these will be overwritten in the reflist at the end of the article, because Wikipedia will assume that they are one and the same by the name tag.

Before you start consolidating citations by the way, a quick mention about your ESCR references -- rather than consolidating all of these as well, I would recommend providing a specific page for each reference as the ESCR index page provides little information. I realise the page URLs aren't especially obvious on the site, this is unfortunately down to the poor web design of Habitas. But you can find the page URL by looking for the page in listings or the search facility, then right-clicking and copying the link to the page -- for example, the Aghanaglack Cave page should be referenced as http://www.habitas.org.uk/escr/summary.asp?item=387 instead of http://www.habitas.org.uk/escr/index.html. Fattonyni (talk) 13:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the information . Yes , I realized that each individual cave has its own habitat page , I was just being a bit lazy but now I can go back and assign each feature the proper url page. Really, I wanted to consolidate references to Henry Glassie's book and a few other long winded references like the annals of the four masters and the annals of ulster etc but then these are written in different volumes which may merit a mention also. I am currently working on actual written references to Boho in literature but have hit a stumbling block because I do not know what the place was called during the 12th century and before that and can only guess at the pronunciation but i have been in touch with a few scholars who may provide the answer for me. I know at this time the area was part of Briefne and this is where the answer may lie. If it was inhabited from neolithic times it must have a name .. Youngbohemian (talk) 09:05, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Missing Links

In the reference from the ANNALS OF THE LOCH CE "1552.9 "Tadhg, the son of Tadhg son of Eoghan O'Ruairc, was slain in treachery in Bothach-Ui-Fhialain, by the Davine, son of Lochlainn" I wondered why this historical event was mentioned if it was not that important? I was looking through the O'Rourke geneologies and found that the kings of Briefney which this region used to be associated with had a king Eoghan O'Rourke, king of Breifne: 1500-1528 - son of Tigernan Oig son of Tadhg (AM1528) and wondered if there was any connection.http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ruairc/obreifne.htm

Youngbohemian (talk) 13:00, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That does indeed sound interesting -- the dates don't seem to match up though (dod 1528, book reference 1552), unless the Loch Ce Annals reference was written well after the occurrence? Fattonyni (talk) 01:40, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Or, of course, unless there are two different calendars in use for reference here....? Fattonyni (talk) 01:41, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't take dates mentioned in some old irish text books as completely accurate but I still think there maybe some family connection . Maybe its time to send an email to a historian . Youngbohemian (talk) 08:47, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Could well be. Do you have the recent "Bréifne" book by the way? It's affiliated with the "breifne.ie" web site, you may find it of use if you don't have a copy of it yet, they're available in the Blacklion visitor centre. Not too much information on Boho itself, but seems good for general topics such as flora and fauna etc. and some of the history. There's a small section on the O'Rourkes (p.141), but unfortunately not a lot on the 15th-16th century. I must also remember to pick up a copy of the new Boho heritage book next time I'm in the area, it sounds like it would be an interesting read. Fattonyni (talk) 11:23, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Boho Caves

The information I added to Boho Caves in the Geology section was beginning to get cumbersome within the context of the article, so I've created a new article at Boho Caves and moved most of the information there, leaving a quick description and link to the article in its place. Fattonyni (talk) 01:32, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Boho Caves is an excellent start to an article. What I actually thought was that the whole cave section in the main Boho article would become so large that each cave or group of caves would have to have its own article. In the first instance , I missed out a lot of information on specific caves because I knew that the article would become massively over-proportioned and too biased towards caves. I think the Reyfad cave deserves a page by itself also or even the Reyfad system and the same is true for the Noones-Hole -Arch system which you started to create with your article on Noones Hole itself. I think the work that you are doing is excellent .Youngbohemian (talk) 08:43, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Anything to help get Boho on the map really. Good work yourself, you've obviously spent much time trawling through historical texts. I don't think it'd be too difficult to get the article up to Good Article (highest) standard. Yes I've been thinking about starting a Reyfad Pot or Reyfad system article, the fact that it is the deepest system in Ireland is merit enough... unfortunately I've not been into the system myself so it would have to be entirely compiled from books. I'll have a go in the next few weeks I expect. Aside from this I think the amount of info you have on each of the caves in this article is perfectly adequate in this context; if they seem worthy of expansion then the same can be done with them as with Boho Caves. Fair point on the Noon's-Arch system, I might be tempted to convert the Noon's article into a page for the whole system, rather than just Noon's Hole... Fattonyni (talk) 11:09, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Briefne

Sorry i moved your reference on West Brefnie down to the history section.. I already had a pre-14 century Boho piece plannned in short scraps but your reference showed me the time was right ... . you can change it around to suit. Also i am very interested to find out what Boho was called before say 1320 ....which is the earliest reference i can find ...We know the high cross was a 12th century artifact and that people were living there since neolithic times but the older name eludes me Youngbohemian (talk) 08:10, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No problem -- I figured the Bréifne reference was going to need a better write-up in the main section of the article anyway. I might still be inclined to keep just a small mention of Bréifne the lead section though, since it was the main preceding locality, before County Fermanagh came into being? Just in terms of the lead being a summary of the main points the article (as per WP:LEAD). Do you think it would be notable enough? Fattonyni (talk) 10:48, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I think it is an extremely important point, the modern area of Boho is a fraction of its former size, given its history, which may be more than 4000 years old. Just 150 years ago in 1873 the area of Boho stretched all the way to belcoo.according to Whitaker ... and after that there was a shuffling of boundaries , and then i think a few more until it reached it present "official size". The Breifni region is actually mentioned in the four masters M3656.2 which is 3656 years supposedly after the creation of the world , ie before the AD period. i don't know how accurate this is so i did not put it in. Also I think the statement of "Boho used to contain 51 town lands and now contains 49" is misleading since it only refers to the last 150 years (of a 4000 year history) or just about within living memory . the real fact was that Boho was a very large area almost from Lough MCNean to the outer reaches of lower lough erne . i have not put this statement in yet as all my resources come in bits and pieces and they are hard to link but I am working on it. Also I don't like standing on peoples toes.Youngbohemian (talk) 12:54, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, that's fairly old enough then! Fair point on the 51→49 townlands statement, you're right of course, perhaps another subsection within "History" would be in order (e.g. "Migration of borders", or something slightly less robotic) containing a paragraph or two on how the size of the area has changed from the wide area between the two loughs to its present-day status, with mention that "in 18xx the parish contained 51 townlands" part-way through? It means that it isn't then being cited as such an important fact, which admittedly it's not in the long run, but still worth mentioning for the fact that it's qualifiable. Great job reordering the "Historical references" section by the way, the addition of particularly ancient stuff (Reyfad stones and Ptolemy) really work well to provide context. Fattonyni (talk) 15:33, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, i could add in the Townlands numbers in chronological order to the historical events since there is a bit of a gap after 1837 i think,this will take time , i remember reading about when the boundaries changed, i think at that time it was around the time of Griffiths evaluation of Ireland. But comprehensive listing of all the changes in history may not be necessary as somebody else reading the article could contribute their knowledge of the historical events of the area. I think there is definitely a lot more to discover if I could find out the name of the Boho area at the time when they erected the high cross or even before this. I have a feeling it has something to do with a region that is mentioned away back in history maybe linked to the area that was previously called the kingdom of Glan, since it has very similar terrain..but i am not sure in this case . I have written to some historians but i am still waiting on a reply.oh ....and i have my day job..... Youngbohemian (talk) 16:32, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Caves associated with the Boho area

Although the number and quality of caves around the boho area is impressive and adds greatly to the importance of the article on boho , i was wondering if it would be possible to mention the highlights of the three main cave systems and then move the specifics of the caves and the geomorphology to a new page of its own ? Youngbohemian (talk) 20:15, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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