Talk:Bohemian Embassy

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A fact from Bohemian Embassy appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 11 January 2023 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that in November 1960, Canadian poets Milton Acorn, Margaret Atwood, and Gwendolyn MacEwen performed at the Bohemian Embassy on the same bill as burlesque dancer Libby Jones?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2023/January. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Bohemian Embassy.

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	This article was accepted from this draft on 24 October 2022 by reviewer Bogger (talk · contribs).

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 02:25, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Article history

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... ~~that in November 1960, Canadian poets Milton Acorn, Margaret Atwood, sean o huigan, and Sylvia Tyson performed at the Bohemian Embassy on the same bill as burlesque dancer Libby Jones?~~ Source: Ferry, Antony (November 18, 1960). "Ah, our night life is coming of age". Toronto Daily Star. p. 34., https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-bohemian-embassy-ambassador-don-cullen-nurtured-the-talents-of-fellow/
- ALT1: ... ~~that Toronto's Bohemian Embassy Coffee House, home of jazz, folk music, poetry, revues and hootenannies, changed address on multiple occasions from 1960 to its demise in 1992?~~ Source:
  "Noises Off: Coffeehouse grinds to another halt". Globe and Mail. May 9, 1992. pp. C10.
  Jennings, Nicholas. "BOHEMIAN EMBASSY 'AMBASSADOR' NURTURED TALENTS OF FELLOW ARTISTS; A brilliant comedic performer, he helped launch the coffeehouse that put Margaret Atwood, Gordon Lightfoot and Sylvia Tyson on stage for the first time." Globe & Mail [Toronto, Canada], 5 July 2022, p. B16. Gale Academic OneFile, link.gale.com/apps/doc/A709185411/AONE?u=wikipedia&sid=ebsco&xid=122ac5c2. Accessed 17 Nov. 2022.
  http://behindthebohemianembassy.com/about.html
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know_nominations/The Breakwater Light

Moved to mainspace by Blaineallan (talk). Nominated by Bogger (talk) at 11:29, 24 October 2022 (UTC).[reply]

Nominating article after I moved it from draft. Article may have more hooky hook if anyone feels like making one. Bogger (talk) 19:44, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewing.... Will post a full review by later today or tomorrow. Flibirigit (talk) 19:14, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As per WP:DYKHOOK, I have adjusted the bold font in the proposed hooks. Flibirigit (talk) 19:19, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

Adequate sourcing: - ?
Neutral:
Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

Cited: - ?
Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article was moved to the mainspace on October 24, and nominated the same day. Length is adequate, the article is neutral in tone, and no plagiarism was detected. The QPQ requirement is complete. I have done some copyediting, but sourcing issues remain. The article needs to have a citation following each sentence which contains a quote, as per Wikipedia:Did you know/Reviewing guide. I have added the relevant {{citation needed}} tags. ALT0, appears to be supported as combination of multiple sentences, each of which are not properly cited to support the hook. ALT1 appears to be a summary of the whole article, and I cannot locate where it is specifically mentioned or cited. Overall, the article is in decent shape, but more attention is needed to its citations. Flibirigit (talk) 21:17, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Added sources for ALTs - Bogger (talk) 23:41, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

resolved citations in the article (each had a citation later in the paragraph, but added online sources if they also existed. Again happy for some other, single sourced hook. Ready for second review? @Flibirigit: -Bogger (talk) 00:17, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I will review the changes tomorrow. I am still concerned about the lead section. The introduction is too short and makes the article look like a work in progress. An adequate introduction will include a summary of the different formats, such as jazz music and poetry reading, et cetera. I also suggest mentioning Don Cullen, and writing a sentence on the legacy of the embassy. I apologize for not summarizing these concerns in my previous comment. Flibirigit (talk) 01:23, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've bulked up the lede, and will leave it to you to remove the banner if you're happy with it. -Bogger (talk) 11:22, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The changes to the introduction look good. The sourcing requirements for the article now meet DYK standards. ALT0 is now properly cited and verified and tentatively approved. My only question is for ALT1; where in the article is it specifically cited? Is there a single sentence which contains all of the hook's info with a citation? Flibirigit (talk) 16:59, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A single sentence? no. I guess I could add it in the lede, but a hook needn't be a direct sentence from an article. "jazz", "folk music", "poetry", "revues", "hootenannies", are all sourced inline. "changed address on multiple occasions from 1960 to its demise in 1992" - four of the sections are named after the different addresses it used. And the sources I've added to ALT1 most concisely reflect ALT1. So I don't know what else is needed. It's a summary statement that is interesting and well sourced. Thanks again for sticking with this.-Bogger (talk) 15:18, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please pardon my late reply, as I took time to contemplate then was sidetracked. I have struck ALT1 above since I cannot find anything which refers to the establishment as "the Bohemian Embassy Coffee House". I think that something similar to "the Bohemian Embassy was a coffeehouse..." would be a better wording. The first part of the hook about the types of shows is cited in the fifth paragraph of the first section. I struggle to find where the second half of the hook on changing addresses is cited despite it being true. My rationale is based on WP:DYKCRIT 3.b. which reads, "Each fact in the hook must be supported in the article by at least one inline citation to a reliable source, appearing no later than the end of the sentence(s) offering that fact." I interpret this as one single sentence supporting a hook fact. I will go ahead and approve ALT0, but I remain open torewordings of ALT1 and will return if other hooks are proposed. Flibirigit (talk) 17:36, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Approving ALT0 as per my review above. I will revisit if other hooks are proposed. Flibirigit (talk) 17:37, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bogger and Flibirigit: there's a few problems with ALT0. The statement in the hook doesn't appear anywhere in the article. The citation is to nicholasjennings.com, but that says, "Originally published in The Globe and Mail", so it's probably better to track down the original citation. And, the source doesn't say anything about sean o huigan. -- RoySmith (talk) 21:16, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging is not necessary. I can access the original articles via ProQuest using my library card. Here is the original Toronto Daily Star article cited: Page 34. (1960, Nov 18). Toronto Daily Star One solution for ALT0 is to substitute Gwendolyn MacEwen for sean o huigin. Flibirigit (talk) 01:24, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the link to article in The Globe and Mail: Bohemian Embassy ‘ambassador’ Don Cullen nurtured the talents of fellow artists Flibirigit (talk) 01:28, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I posted a message on the nominator's talk page, notifying of outstanding questions. Flibirigit (talk) 23:59, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

- ALT2: ... that in November 1960, Canadian poets Milton Acorn, Margaret Atwood, and Gwendolyn MacEwen~~, and Sylvia Tyson~~ performed at the Bohemian Embassy on the same bill as burlesque dancer Libby Jones? Source: Ferry, Antony (November 18, 1960). "Ah, our night life is coming of age". Toronto Daily Star. p. 34., https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-bohemian-embassy-ambassador-don-cullen-nurtured-the-talents-of-fellow/ Page 34. (1960, Nov 18). Toronto Daily Star

@RoySmith:I AGF for the sean o huigin reference, but we can go with ALT2 instead? -Bogger (talk) 07:54, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: I added images to illustrate the article, from what I could find freely licensed on the Commons. Flibirigit (talk) 19:36, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Struck ALT0 as per concerns addressed by RoySmith. Flibirigit (talk) 22:07, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
ALT2 cannot be approved yet, as the corresponding passage in the article needs to be updated to include Gwendolyn MacEwen as per the source. Flibirigit (talk) 15:06, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- done. -Bogger (talk) 07:15, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - Approving slightly reworded version of ALT2, since I cannot find anything which indicates Sylvia Tyson was a poet. It seems she was the musician which punctuated the night of poetry. The hooks is now properly cited and verified. Flibirigit (talk) 02:33, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bohemianism lifestyle

I am curious if any connection exists between the name of this establishment to Bohemianism. Any thoughts? Flibirigit (talk) 17:39, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Bohemian Embassy would have been named after Bohemianism, as there was nothing bohemian about it. Bogger (talk) 09:40, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]