Talk:Bobs Worth

A news item involving Bobs Worth was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 26 January 2022.

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Age at death/horse age

All thoroughbread horses in the northern hemisphere have birthday on 1 January (and 1 August for southern hemisphere) [1]. So his first birthday would have been 1 January 2006 (when he was 7 months old), and 17th birthday would have been 1 January 2022. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:14, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A convention for classifying horses for races is not the same as actual, biological age. This horse was NOT 17 years old at the time of its death. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:11, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's reported in sources as 17 for this reason, and is why I added the note to explain this. Calling it 16 years old, against all reliable sources is incorrect. Wikipedia is a tertiary source, we follow what sources say. And they say 17. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:18, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So we have to quote an obvious math error because it's sourceable? That is unbelievably stupid.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:33, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We shouldn't be listing 16, since it's unsourced, and against all sourcing. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:03, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So you're saying that a hypothetical person who was born and died on the exact same days would be listed in his/her article as dying at 16, but a horse has to be listed as 17? This makes no sense to me. We aren't talking about how horses are handled for things like age restricted racing, where this convention avoids complications, but about basic biological facts. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:05, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes because horses are not humans, and so use a different system for counting age. Same as how people in East Asia sometimes have their ages reportedly differently to the Western way due to the East Asian age reckoning (different counting system). Will leave a message at WP Horse Racing, as they must have had this issue before, and would be good to get more people's thoughts. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:37, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

East Asian ages are still given in the standard manner here. As are the ages of other species. This usage seems like an instance of the specialized style fallacy. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:45, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For comparison, Seabiscuit is said to have died six days short of 14 years old. Normal reckoning, not this "horse style". --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:52, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also see Affirmed, who is said to have died at 25, with a footnote explaining that official thoroughbred sources will list him as 26 by convention.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 22:07, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is very clear that if the horse is a thoroughbred/standard bred and registered by a stud book that if the horse is born in the Northern Hemisphere the Birthdate is January 1st and August 1st if the horse is born in the Southern Hemisphere, without regard to when the horse was foaled. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 21:13, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm from WP Horse Racing. Is this not easily solved to everyone's satisfaction by not mentioning age at all in the infobox and just giving death date? Death age is not given in the infobox for the likes of Red Rum or Desert Orchid. Then in the text, if age has to be given, I would err to using the "racing" age, with a note to explain for people who were not aware of the convention. Peaky76 (talk) 22:32, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem leaving age out of the infobox, but if age is mentioned it must be the real birth to death age and not something horse racers made up for organizing races. You can footnote the convention instead.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 22:52, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Your assumption is incorrect. This is not something that horse racers made up but well documented by Horse racing governing authorities and they have documented it. That is the real age. Footnotes is not the way to go either. We are writing about horses and not people here and I would strongly advise that any such a footnote be deleted so that ignorance is not on display.Brudder Andrusha (talk) 23:56, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How is "Horse racing governing authorities" not covered by "horse racers made up for organizing races"? And "real age" is from when the horse is born to when it dies, just like with any other mammal. This birthday-on-January-1 thing is a human created convention. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:05, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Go read this which is a good reference. Why Do Thoroughbred Racehorses Have the Same Birthday? Its also created by humans and humans will also overrule you. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 00:12, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have read it. And read it again to confirm my memories. You do realize that it supports my side? "Setting a standard birth date for racehorses makes it simple to determine its acceptability for races based on ages." It has nothing to do with the biological facts of lifespan. Which is what the date of birth, date of death, and age at death parameters are about. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:17, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You need to provide a reference for the age of the horse in question, and for this horse you cannot provide one that he is 16. I provided a reason and I've disputed the age in the template. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 00:22, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Simple calculations do not require sourcing. Wikipedia:No_original_research#Routine_calculations --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:29, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Your calculation is incorrect. Use the birth date as specified Jan 1 or Aug 1 not the foal date in calculation of age.Brudder Andrusha (talk) 00:32, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Foal date" is "birth date". That's what "foaling" means. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:35, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Birth date for horses in is January 1st and August 1st if the horse is born in the Southern Hemisphere irrespective of foal date.Brudder Andrusha (talk) 00:38, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is a convention for the organization of races. It has no more relation to reality than the billed heights and weights of professional wrestlers. If you want to label it as "official age", fine. But "age" refers to birth-to-death. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:42, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not for horses. Wrestlers are humans so I agree with you. This article is about a horse.Brudder Andrusha (talk) 00:46, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You don't get to suspend reality or the meanings of English words because it's a horse. "Age" is the time an organism has lived. As this horse was not a separate life form before 21 May 2005, you cannot count that time period for its lifespan or age. You can classify it into an age group for the purposes of horse racing and breeding as if it were in existence from 1 January 2005, but outside of that limited context (and an encyclopedia is most definitely outside of it), we should deal with its actual age. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:48, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have made a correct template for horses age on Swedish WP sv:Mall:Hästålder. The templates default setting is for horses born on the northern hemisphere, but can be changed with a parameter. Feel free to use it on enwp as well. Kuriosatempel (talk) 09:12, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]